petition - allow practice weapons to be purchased


Pathfinder Society

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

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I've played 2 PFS scenarios this week that have practice weapons in them (there are quite a few, but 2 in less than a week finally made me crack).

Practice weapons, of course, do non lethal damage.

Could we please get some way to buy these? At the least, put them on the chronicle sheet? They're obviously VERY common in world

Dark Archive 3/5 5/5

I feel like this is a thing that's restricted for the purpose of game balance. If you could buy a nonlethal version of your weapon for a negligible price, the +1 Merciful enchantment wouldn't have a reason to exist. In the case of scenarios that give you Training Weapons, it's mostly to compensate for the martials who have, uo until this point, been encouraged by the game's mechanics to be as lethal as possible.

Granted, I'm on your side in this one. Actually capturing people alive without the aid of save-or-sleep magic can be risky thanks to the risk of nonlethal rolling over into lethal.

At the very least, I feel as if there's some potential development space to be explored here.

Sovereign Court 5/5 *

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There is a reason most of my martials carry a sap, unless they have other means of reliable non-leathal dmg, you can even buy a large sap so you can 2 hand it for extra damage (though a -2 to hit)

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

It might also be a game-balance concern. Leadership might not want Sap Adept builds and such to have easy access to nonlethal versions of high-powered weapons.

(I'm just speculating, since I don't know the exact mechanics of "practice weapons" off the top of my head.)

Dark Archive 1/5

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Kigvan wrote:
There is a reason most of my martials carry a sap, unless they have other means of reliable non-leathal dmg, you can even buy a large sap so you can 2 hand it for extra damage (though a -2 to hit)

BONK

Silver Crusade 2/5

There's also the trait Weapon of Peace from Champions of Purity which makes doing non-lethal damage only a -2 penalty which would be voided by training weapons.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

DesolateHarmony wrote:
There's also the trait Weapon of Peace from Champions of Purity which makes doing non-lethal damage only a -2 penalty which would be voided by training weapons.

Or various Sarenrae religion traits.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Oh, I understand the game balance reasons.

But every now and then the fact that paizo sometimes REALLY seems to dislike their own rules just irks me.

They seem to constantly go "We want to do <something>. Oh, the rules don't let us do that. Lets just ignore the rules and do it anyway. Makes for a better story".

Sometimes its amusing but sometimes it really, really makes me think
"You know, you should really change the rules".

Right now, non lethal practice weapons are pretty firmly established to exist in Golarion and be quite common. It just breaks my willing suspension of disbelief that PCs aren't allowed to buy them but NPCs can.

4/5

Golarion conspiracy theory, it's all those trainers in the arena making sure access to non-lethal weapons is limited so they can maintain their income teaching adventurers the stage combatant feat. Suspension of disbelieve solved and it opens up the opportunity for it's own scenario as brave adventurers seek these weapons out (Pathfinders are of course hired to stop these brazen individuals and are rewarded with a free opportunity to retrain a feat into stage combatant).

But really as much as I enjoy immersion this is one of those situations where I can't see these weapons being allowed as they simply replace a multitude of options which require more investment.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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It's true that seeing nonlethal versions of weapons in a scenario is a bit convenient from a narrative perspective. When there's an encounter intended to be nonlethal, such as a test of strength with potential allies, it's certainly handy because it means players have very minimal recalculation to do in order to determine how their equipment works. These situations present five distinct paths.

1) Give the PCs nonlethal versions of their weapons. This minimizes recalculation and character design negation, although it's somewhat wonky from an immersion perspective.

2) Give the PCs a limited assortment of nonlethal versions of weapons that make a fair amount of sense, such as saps, nonlethal staves, nonlethal swords, and the like. This involves a little rules-bending, but there's a slightly more believable intersection between common rules and special rules. On the other hand, it means that those who specialize in a rare weapon are fighting with a significant disadvantage (e.g. a finesse wakizachi rogue now doesn't add Dex to damage, and an urumi weapon master loses almost all of his class features). We did this with weapons made of a special material in a scenario a few months ago, and some people were really sour that their weapon wasn't represented in the array of gear. This method also requires greater recalculation and negation of a PC's existing feats (e.g. Weapon Focus) on the fly, slowing down gameplay.

3) Provide the PCs with the few nonlethal weapons that exist in the game: saps, blunt arrows, mancatchers, bolas, and a few others. Mechanical verisimilitude is maintained at the cost of an even more extreme drawback from #2 above.

4) Nobody gets any special gear, but the scenario expects the PCs to fight nonlethally anyway. In this situation, there will probably be a tragic death, which could seriously impact how the scenario plays (and whether everyone gets the full Prestige Point award).

5) Provide a magical or supernatural explanation for why all damage in nonlethal. Sure, an important sage of peace might be able to create some aura of nonlethal damage, but at that point we're probably in the same boat of asking why PCs can't do that.

When it comes to presenting a nonlethal combat that doesn't give the players a lot of grief, Method 1 tends to be the cleanest, even if it bends the rules some to make that happen. If, however, people would rather have 2, 3, or 4, that's certainly something we can consider for future adventures. As it is, though, I don't see universally nonlethal versions of weapons being something that are available for purchase in the campaign. As other noted above, there are some troubling design implications that decision would leave open.

4/5 ****

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I'm just some yahoo but stick with 1 & 4.

1 for low level scenarios, keep things simple, special nonlethal versions do this. (5 seems mechanically similar to 1 but without the worry of treachery and the adding the worry about weird magic)

4 for higher level scenarios, it means players who invest in non-lethal tactics such as saps, merciful rods, silver crusade faction cards etc have an advantage in a situation where they should have an advantage. We should get full prestiege less often when we're unprepared, although a warning from the Venture Captain when we're still within shopping range that we're going to have to capture somebody alive etc might be nice.

PS. I really appreciate hearing this sort of insight into development decisions. They are generally both insightful and show an involvement with the community and a willingness to listen to feedback. <3

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

John, thank you for commenting on this.

I admit that you're all probably right, its just one of those things that I should ignore.

But maybe an item on a chronicle sheet. A practice weapon (limit 1 or 2). With the note that it isn't meant for real combat and so breaks after 1 scenario ?

Also probably not worth the bother if I'm honest.

Ok, I'll shut up now :-). Thank you for listening to me vent :-)

4/5

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I could see practice weapons on a chronicle sheet, but with a note on them that they should be considered fragile when used against real ones. Consider how long a rattan practice sword would last against a real broadsword.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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RealAlchemy wrote:
I could see practice weapons on a chronicle sheet, but with a note on them that they should be considered fragile when used against real ones. Consider how long a rattan practice sword would last against a real broadsword.

*Blink*

Wow, I should have thought to apply the fragile quality to prior practice weapons. That's a good idea.

4/5

Fairly good solution for making them PFS purchasable as well. Fragile and they can never be masterwork or magical because at a certain point it stops being a practice weapon and becomes a +1 club that happens to look like a sword.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

I suspect that the practice weapons wouldn't have a good crit range either.

4/5

Okay, now I want to see this in PFS if only for the chance that it may spawn unchained rogues with quick draw that repeatedly break wooden eleven curve blades over the heads of their foes because they haven't yet taken the option to get dex to damage with a sap.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Pirate Rob wrote:

I'm just some yahoo but stick with 1 & 4.

I want 5 to happen because I want an Occultist in a scenario to pop up and weirdly enough rendering a weapon completely nonlethal isn't that hard and kind of plays into one of their gimmicks.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

p-sto wrote:
Okay, now I want to see this in PFS if only for the chance that it may spawn unchained rogues with quick draw that repeatedly break wooden eleven curve blades over the heads of their foes because they haven't yet taken the option to get dex to damage with a sap.

For a level one "how long can you survive?" game (obviously not PFS) I built a fighter with Disposable Weapon who specialized in snapping obsidian kukris off in his enemies. Surprisingly effective.

On topic, the fragile property is perfect, especially if you limit it to one weapon.
Quote:

Person who arranged the fight with practice weapons was pleased with your performance, but feels you could still use some more work to become a true master. Choose one practice weapon type you used in situation and write it on the line below. Person gives you a free practice weapon of this type. This weapon deals only non-lethal damage - with no penalties on your attack roll - however it has the fragile weapon quality. (It has half the hardness of a normal weapon of that type. If you ever roll a natural 1 while attacking it immediately gains the broken condition. If you roll another one while attacking with a broken fragile weapon, it is immediately destroyed.) This weapon may not be made masterwork or enchanted. If sold, this weapon has a price of 0 gold.

_____________________________ GM Initials ____

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

John Compton wrote:
3) Provide the PCs with the few nonlethal weapons that exist in the game: saps, blunt arrows, mancatchers, bolas, and a few others. Mechanical verisimilitude is maintained at the cost of an even more extreme drawback from #2 above.

Blunt arrows don't do nonlethal damage by default, you must still take a –4 penalty to hit (an option that just isn't available to normal arrows). Of course any PC can do nonlethal damage with any melee weapon by just taking a –4 to hit...

Dark Archive 3/5 5/5

The issue of dealing nonlethal damage is also a serious concern for my Kineticist. His specialization is Aether. Wood is the only element with a nonlethal damage option, and most elements' crowd control and disabling effects are also tied to the lethal Kinetic Blast.

Granted, I have been able to use my telekinesis in creative ways to block an ambushing archer's line-of-sight or hinder enemy movement, but someone like Yoon would have nothing to do but aid another in melee.

Scarab Sages

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BretI wrote:
I suspect that the practice weapons wouldn't have a good crit range either.

The weapons in this scenario did not have a listed crit range. Thus I assumed the scimitars were (20/x2). I feel they should be this way as well. This did save my players from 2 crits if the scimitars were meant to be treated in all ways as the normal weapon.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

I admit, I wouldn't mind seeing "Nonlethal version of weapon, deals -2 damage, and has only a x2 crit range."

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

Rosc: there's a feat in Magic Tactics Toolbox that adds Nonlethal Spell to your metakinesis list. Might be more investment than you're looking for, but it's an option. ^_^

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
John Compton wrote:
5) Provide a magical or supernatural explanation for why all damage in nonlethal. Sure, an important sage of peace might be able to create some aura of nonlethal damage, but at that point we're probably in the same boat of asking why PCs can't do that.

I want to touch on this one quickly. There are spells for that :).

Touch and Hymn of Mercy (single target and aura respectively) which could be used for the magical explanation.

Dark Archive 3/5 5/5

Kalindlara wrote:
Rosc: there's a feat in Magic Tactics Toolbox that adds Nonlethal Spell to your metakinesis list. Might be more investment than you're looking for, but it's an option. ^_^

Huh. Well, feats are a little tight, but I'll give that one a looksee.

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