Is the Dagger-Pistol's blade actually a Dagger?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

So, the Dagger Pistol. It's an amusing double weapon that let's you stay armed for melee when you focus on ranged. The language describing the blade is a little vague, but I want to know if the blade end carries the stat profile of a Dagger.

This is mostly because I want to use it as a thrown weapon, and I'm not sure if it would count as Improvised in that case.

Pistol, Dagger:
A combination of a coat pistol and a blade, the dagger pistol can be used as both weapons. The awkwardness of the configuration means you do not gain the bonus on Sleight of Hand checks that either of those stand-alone weapons grants. The dagger pistol is considered a double weapon for the purpose of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the dagger component are considered broken. A dagger pistol uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.

Of course, it's also good to know if the stabby end has some kind of seperage crit range/modifier.


...you want to throw your gun at people?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I actually can't find any information on this.

beyond that, this made me think about double weapons.

If you had a double weapon where one side has a range increment... why can't you throw the other side as well?


More importantly, I'd like to know if it counts as a dagger for all the various goodies a dagger gets. Knife Master rogue, River Rat trait, pharasma's deific obedience, etc...

My guess is "no" though. Dagger pistol is different enough from dagger, I suppose.

Dark Archive

Doomed Hero wrote:

...you want to throw your gun at people?

Yep! I want to make Pathfinder just a little more Anime.

Bandw2 wrote:
If you had a double weapon where one side has a range increment... why can't you throw the other side as well?

See, that't the part that has me thinking this might be possible, but it could lead to Table Variation. And if it counts as Improvised with all the roadblocks that come with that, then I may as well abandon the whole thing and play a regular gunslinger. And nobody wants that.


I'd say you could throw it. If you look at real historical (or replicas thereof) dagger pistols it's really a dagger with a tiny pistol built into the handle with the barrel parallel to the blade.

For Example

The firearm assembly would almost certainly make it more awkwardly weighted than a normal dagger and thus aerodynamic, but the game mechanics make no distinction between knives specially weighted for throwing and ones that are made sturdier for stabbing, so I'd say go ahead.


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Doomed Hero wrote:

...you want to throw your gun at people?

When a mook is shooting at superman, he just stands there and takes it. But when they run out of bullets and throw the gun, he ducks. Therefore, thrown guns are more imposing than bullets.


The Sideromancer wrote:
When a mook is shooting at superman, he just stands there and takes it. But when they run out of bullets and throw the gun, he ducks. Therefore, thrown guns are more imposing than bullets.

Metroman > Superman: he does not need to duck when people throw things at him + he can see through lead.


Metroman's only weakness is his midlife crisis.


Logically, I'd have to conclude that rules elements that apply to daggers (eg. throwing, Weapon Focus(Dagger), Knife Master archetype abilities, River Rat trait, etc.) would apply to a Dagger Pistol when it's being used as a dagger. Of course, you couldn't apply Weapon Focus (Dagger) when firing it like a pistol and you couldn't apply Weapon Focus (Pistol) when using it for melee/throwing as a dagger, but if you're going to throw it, I see no real reason to not treat it as a dagger when doing so. It already explicitly spells out the limitations of the combination, such as losing the ability to easily conceal it as you could with either a plain Dagger or a Pistol. So, if it wasn't meant to be thrown as a Dagger, I'd presume it would also specify that limitation. Since it doesn't, we can conclude that it is valid to throw a Dagger Pistol just as you would throw a Dagger, using the same parameters as using a Dagger (eg. throwing range increments, dagger crit, etc.). However, one needs to consider the comparative value of the weapon. A Dagger costs 2 gp while a Dagger Pistol costs 740 GP. You throw a Dagger and some goblin grabs it and runs off, well, whoop-de-doo, he ran off with a 2 gp weapon. But if you throw your 740 gp Dagger Pistol and some goblin grabs it and runs off, you're going to be right pissed.


Kazaan wrote:
Logically, I'd have to conclude that rules elements that apply to daggers (eg. throwing, Weapon Focus(Dagger), Knife Master archetype abilities, River Rat trait, etc.) would apply to a Dagger Pistol when it's being used as a dagger. Of course, you couldn't apply Weapon Focus (Dagger) when firing it like a pistol and you couldn't apply Weapon Focus (Pistol) when using it for melee/throwing as a dagger, but if you're going to throw it, I see no real reason to not treat it as a dagger when doing so. It already explicitly spells out the limitations of the combination, such as losing the ability to easily conceal it as you could with either a plain Dagger or a Pistol. So, if it wasn't meant to be thrown as a Dagger, I'd presume it would also specify that limitation. Since it doesn't, we can conclude that it is valid to throw a Dagger Pistol just as you would throw a Dagger, using the same parameters as using a Dagger (eg. throwing range increments, dagger crit, etc.). However, one needs to consider the comparative value of the weapon. A Dagger costs 2 gp while a Dagger Pistol costs 740 GP. You throw a Dagger and some goblin grabs it and runs off, well, whoop-de-doo, he ran off with a 2 gp weapon. But if you throw your 740 gp Dagger Pistol and some goblin grabs it and runs off, you're going to be right pissed.

What about Weapon Focus (dagger pistol)?


Kazaan wrote:
But if you throw your 740 gp Dagger Pistol and some goblin grabs it and runs off, you're going to be right pissed.

If you want to avoid this situation, you could get "returning" enchanted on your dagger pistol, but since the dagger pistol is a double weapon you would have to enchant the dagger part and the pistol part separately. Would your weapon still return to you no matter what part of the weapon "returning" is enchanted on, or do you have to have it on the dagger?


Returning can only be placed on a throwing weapon, so it'd have to be the dagger part.


If you can throw both halves of a double weapon without penalties, doesn't that imply the entire thing is a thrown weapon?


PossibleCabbage wrote:


If you want to avoid this situation, you could get "returning" enchanted on your dagger pistol

And if ranged weapons impart their enchantment to their ammunition, that means the pistol would fire returning bullets. That would certainly be frightening.

Yes, I know it doesn't work like that, but I find the imagery humorous.


Saethori wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:


If you want to avoid this situation, you could get "returning" enchanted on your dagger pistol

And if ranged weapons impart their enchantment to their ammunition, that means the pistol would fire returning bullets. That would certainly be frightening.

Yes, I know it doesn't work like that, but I find the imagery humorous.

I now want a bullet-cycling rail gunblade.

Dark Archive

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
But if you throw your 740 gp Dagger Pistol and some goblin grabs it and runs off, you're going to be right pissed.
If you want to avoid this situation, you could get "returning" enchanted on your dagger pistol, but since the dagger pistol is a double weapon you would have to enchant the dagger part and the pistol part separately. Would your weapon still return to you no matter what part of the weapon "returning" is enchanted on, or do you have to have it on the dagger?

Eehhhh. The wording of Returning means that you'll only get one attack with it, iirc. Considering the damage die and the relative power of Vital Strike, the enchant is already obsolete by the time you can afford it since you'll have the ability to make multiple attacks by that point.

Unless someone is really excited at the prospect of dealing Harsk-like damage at level 7, I doubt this particular conflict will ever arise.

Grand Lodge

A friend and I have been discussing the possibilities of two weapon fighting with dagger pistols and a Blink Back Belt. Using Quick Draw and Alchemical Cartridges, you should be able to Shoot-Throw-Shoot-Throw in theory as many times as you get attacks.
Practical? Probably not...
Funny as heck? I can just see my GM staring at me incredulity wondering what the hell I was thinking :D


Considering the stats given to the Cane Sword Pistol, the stats listed on the Firearms chart seems to only be for the pistol part of it. I think you should use the stats for a normal dagger/cane sword for the other half.

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