Killer Croc


Advice


I'm interested in building a character that likes to bite/eat his enemies. While looking into it, I think I've also decided I want it to have some grappling capability as well, which eventually evolved into the idea of an alligator/crocodile type character, that latches onto his opponents with a bite, then tears them apart, eating them a chunk at a time.

My current idea is a Lizardfolk Barbarian, and am considering using the Death Roll feat, which allows knocking the opponent prone after grappling, but also going prone myself. I'm also considering the Raging Cannibal archetype. I'm also considering some 3rd party material that allows for using strength checks to remove limbs, which I then devour. If there was a 1st party way to do this, though, that's always preferable.

I'm looking for any other ideas/suggestions on how to make this a gruesome and effective build.

Grand Lodge

Saurian Druid would also do quiet well. Full 9th level caster...Ability to Get real big and Bite like the Dickens....


Feral Gnasher Barbarian gets to grapple on their bite attacks. It is Goblin only, but you could do it with Human (or anything that can count as human) with Racial Heritage.

Scaleheart Skinwalker is another option, though incompatible with Feral Gnasher.


Mooncursed Barbarian- Use crocodile as main rage form (Gives you swim speed and a bite attack). Take rage powers : Beast totem line, Breathtaker,other thematic rage powers.


I would ignore the Death Roll feat and replace it with the Raging Grappler rage power (no prerequisites)... taking the Extra Rage Power feat for it or take it as a rage power. It allows you to deal damage when you initiate a grapple (as if you had maintained to deal damage) along with making your opponent prone as a free action when you DO maintain a grapple that does not make you go prone... This rage power is hands down better with the only drawback of being only usable while you are raging. This would stack nicely with Animal Fury as it allows a free bite attack on maintaining a grapple, allowing you to deal bite damage every time you successfully initiate a grapple and your bite damage twice, plus, making your opponent prone when making a successful grapple check to maintain to damage!

I like Raging Cannibal only for the Razor-Toothed fury ability but the rest seem to only be useful vs an enemy of the same creature type, which is limiting in my opinion.

Mooncursed adds the crocodile features but you lose the bonus to STR and CON from rage... but you do gain a swim speed and later on the Grab ability.

Half-Orc makes a good race as it gains access to Bloody Bite and Feasting Bite rage powers... unfortunately this limits you to Mooncursed to get the Crocodile aspects you want.

Skinwalker Scale-heart would give you your crocodile features without limiting you to Mooncursed archetype. They can maintain their transformation indefinitely if they wish... I would take the Extra Feature feat once or twice.

Lizardfolk are great because you are actually reptilian and get +2 STR and +2 CON, bite (although weak), claws, swim speed 30ft, +2 natural armor and Hold Breath ability.

I recommend Lizardfolk- Savage Barbarian. If your GM is flexible, see if he will allow a tail slap natural attack or access to the bloody bite rage power.

Rage Powers
Animal Fury
Raging Grappler
Beast Totems (pounce!)
Breathtaker
Body Bludgeon (because it's hilarious)

Feats
Extra Rage Power
Dangerous Tail
Raging Vitality
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple
Rapid Grappler

^that would make a nasty grappler. My 2 copper pieces... hope this helps :)


I see Breathtaker mentioned a lot, but seems kind of dependent on there being water nearby. What about including the feat Chokehold? It lets me force holding breath anywhere, using a grapple check, and then Breathtaker would quicken the speed at which they begin to suffocate? Even then, I feel like killing them with damage would still happen faster than killing them with suffocation. Also, there are probably lots of things that would be immune to suffocation anyway. Just not sure if it is worth the investment, unless there is something I'm missing.

I'm considering Oracle VMC for a 3rd party curse called Ravenous. It's a bit of a wait, but at 10th, I'd be gaining: a bite attack (1d6), the grab ability, +4 to start and maintain a grapple (this may or may not be the +4 that having grab provides; not sure) and the swallow whole ability. I'd also still be getting the 3 revelations across the career of the character, and an Orison if my Cha isn't tanked.


Hmm, that is interesting, I was thinking going for the bloody-knuckled rowdy bloodrager archetype with the primalist for some rage powers. The spells could be temporary bursts of stamina, speed etc. However, for a character without armor, the savage barbarian isn´t bad at all.


RaizielDragon wrote:

I see Breathtaker mentioned a lot, but seems kind of dependent on there being water nearby. What about including the feat Chokehold? It lets me force holding breath anywhere, using a grapple check, and then Breathtaker would quicken the speed at which they begin to suffocate? Even then, I feel like killing them with damage would still happen faster than killing them with suffocation. Also, there are probably lots of things that would be immune to suffocation anyway. Just not sure if it is worth the investment, unless there is something I'm missing.

I'm considering Oracle VMC for a 3rd party curse called Ravenous. It's a bit of a wait, but at 10th, I'd be gaining: a bite attack (1d6), the grab ability, +4 to start and maintain a grapple (this may or may not be the +4 that having grab provides; not sure) and the swallow whole ability. I'd also still be getting the 3 revelations across the career of the character, and an Orison if my Cha isn't tanked.

Grab and Swallow Whole would be excellent to have for biting, grappling and eating people, however, I think Oracle would have too low BAB to be an efficient grappler... the high BAB and +4 STR from Rage sound much more effective to me but I'm not familiar with the Oracle class. The +4 would be from the Grab ability I believe.

As a Killer Croc type character, staying near or trying to fight in water just makes sense as a Swim speed gives you a distinct advantage in combat while in water against those who dont'. If you wanna fight like a Crocodile, dragging people under water while eating them would definitely define that. Aside from them being at a disadvantage from underwater combat, they will most likely be struggling to bring the fight back onto the land to also avoid drowning. Remember, most creatures can only hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to twice their CON score... let's say it's a 14, making 28 rounds... but using more than a single Move or Standard action reduces the number of rounds they have left by one additional round, effectively making their breath hold 14 rounds while in constant combat. Breathtaker says a successful attack reduces their rounds of breath hold equal to your STR modifier! While raging your STR mod could be as high as +5 or more depending on your stats. Your opponent loses 2 rounds from fighting and let's say another 5 from your STR mod with Breathtaker making his breath hold from 28 to 21 in one round... and that's only with one successful attack. Imagine hitting with a bite, 2 claws and a tail slap.... 28 down to 6 and then they would have to swim to the surface, where you could just grapple them and pull them deeper again. Effectively, you could drown an opponent in around 3-4 rounds just from maintaining grapple (Animal Fury grants attack on maintain... three times with Rapid Grappler, also, I believe grapple checks are considered attack rolls... granting 6 possible successful attack rolls from maintain a grapple with Animal Fury and Rapid Grappler to employ Breathtaker to devastating effect). Yes this could work with Chokehold but you suffer a -5 to maintain and as soon as they escape your Grapple the rounds reset.

I'm not saying Breathtaker is a mandatory rage power but if you have a swim speed and can fight in water it adds a delicious amount of danger to your combat style, especially if you are already an indomitable grappler.


Sounds fun, but again, I feel it would be too situational needing water without Chokehold. So I feel like taking one kind of mandates taking the other. Not arguing against them, just pointing out I'd want both or neither.

Also, the idea wasn't to be an Oracle; it was to Variant Multiclass into Oracle; which costs 5 feats over the lifespan of the character (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, 19th). I re-thought it though, and it seems to make more sense to just dip 1 level of Oracle for the Curse (it still levels up at 1/2 speed which is the same speed it levels if doing VMC). This would give me the bite, grab, swallow whole all at 9th level (1 Oracle + 8 whatever else = 5).


Tyrant Lizard King wrote:
Mooncursed adds the crocodile features but you lose the bonus to STR and CON from rage... but you do gain a swim speed and later on the Grab ability.

I'm actually a huge fan of the Mooncursed. Sure you don't get +4 to STR and Con... but you do get +2 STR and Nat Armor which go great with Beast Totem and Guarded Stance for a nice tanky gator. The loss of -2 AC makes Bloodthirsty Armor so much better. The size increase to large/huge later on is a better damage increase that the +2 STR you're giving up, not to mention reach. Lets not forget those same size increases vastly help grappling later on. Finally the best part... you're not a croc all the time. No pesky NPCs treating you like a monster.


Mooncursed
1-10: +2 Str, +2 NA, 1d6 bite, 1d8 tail slap
11-19: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 NA, 1d8 bite, 1d12 tail slap, -1 AC, -1 attack, -4 Stealth, +1 CMB/CMD
20: +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 NA, 2d6 bite, 2d8 tail slap, -2 AC, -2 attack, -8 Stealth, +2 CMB/CMD

Regular
1-10: +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will, -2 AC
11-19: +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -2 AC
20: +8 Str, +8 Con, +4 Will, -2 AC

So, from 1-10, the Mooncursed has 4 more AC, a 1d6 Bite (bites are pretty easy to get between Skinwalker, Lizardfolk, or Animal Fury), and a 1d8 tail slap (Lizardfolk can get with a feat after 5th level, but only 1d4). The regular has +1 attack, +1 dmg (which is ~ one die size increase) over the mooncursed.

11-19: Mooncursed still has 4 AC over the regular (account for Dex penalties and AC penalties). Bite and Tail slap increased in damage, so pulling away a bit in the damage department. Both got a +2 Str bump, but regular didn't take a -1 attack hit, so regular continues to be more accurate. +1 CMB/CMD for the Mooncursed is equaled by the superior Strength bonus of the regular. BUT, Dex is part of CMD, so Mooncursed is actually losing some CMD due to Dex loss. Regular will be much stealthier (if it matters; dont' have to rage while trying to stealth, can rage after stealth fails) due to Stealth and Dex penalty of Mooncursed.

20th: This probably doesn't even matter since it's a capstone, but just to be thorough. Basically same thing happens here as at 11th; Mooncursed gets a bump in damage from dice size increase, but attack penalty, CMD loss, and Stealth loss.

Also, across all of these levels, regular will have better Fort (due to Con increase), Reflex (due to no Dex loss) and Will (thanks to Will bonus). So Regular has better saves across the board.

So, you get +4 AC, -1/-2/-3 attack, ~+1/+2/+4 damage, -0/-1/-2 CMD, -2/-3/-4 Fort, -0/-1/-2 Ref, -2/-3/-4 Will.

Granted, getting some natural attacks for free (bite and tail slap) also opens up your race options and some feats/powers. But it is at the expense of other areas.


Ah, I had overlooked the stat boosts and Nat armor gained from Beast Shape! That definitely makes this option more useable in my eyes now. Does your Hybrid form allow these larger sizes as well or only if you assume the full animal form?


You could still be Lizardfolk, since it's still good for this with the ability scores, it's thematic, and you can keep up your theme even if you don't want to use rounds of rage. You have a swim speed even without raging, too.
Also, it does specify that you can become larger versions of both beast and hybrid forms.
Remember that you can still become a Medium version with Greater Shifting Rage and still gain slightly more benefit, too (though not as much benefit as the size increase would give). You're not forced to become a size that doesn't work for your location or situation.
One thing that isn't clear is that Hybrid Rage states your forelimbs "remain" hands, meaning you might be able to retain your Lizardfolk claw attacks in spite of the general polymorph rules.


I think I'm zeroing in on what I want to do, but had some questions that I was hoping could be answered here; if needed, I can take these over to the rules questions thread instead, but they are all applicable to the build, so figured I would try here first.

1) Can an Unchained Barbarian take Raging Grappler? My thought is that no, they can't, because it isn't on the list of new ones, or allowed old ones.

2) If you gain a bite attack from multiple sources, do you get to pick which one you want to use? There are lots of ways to get bite attacks between different races, feats, and class features (including from different classes if multiclassing), so how would all of this work together? Some of my current options are: Lizardfolk (1d3), Anumus+Vicious Bite (feat; 1d6), Animal Fury (rage power; 1d4), Hunger Oracle curse (1 level Oracle dip or VMC Oracle; 1d6).

The Lizardfolk is my preferred choice right now, though I am likely going to take Animal Fury (or be forced to if I decide on the raging cannibal archetype, which I am very interested in) and really want to take the Oracle dip or VMC for the bite, grab, and swallow whole abilities. So I will have a 1d3 bite from Lizardfolk, a 1d4 bite from Animal Fury, and a 1d6 bite from the Hunger curse. Can I just choose to use the 1d6 bite?

3) Is it worth it to try to upgrade the damage die of my bite? I don't really want to make this into a multi-attacking natural attack pouncing build; I want to try to focus on just my bite if possible. I have some options of feats and rage powers that would increase the die size, but wasn't sure if that was really worth it. Though see 5, and the possibility of Vital Strike.

4) Should I bother with Unchained if I just want to focus on my bite?

5) Should I avoid options that will give me additional natural attacks, so I can maintain x1.5 Str mod on my single bite? I'm not completely opposed to the idea of having some claws, for when I do get a chance to full-attack, but would rather find a way to make a single bite as useful at pulling it's own weight as possible; maybe via Vital Strike or a way to make iterative attacks with my bite.


Aaaagh I had a better response typed up but the site screwed up!

Unchained Barbarian is a slight downgrade from the core Barbarian; don't use it unless you've never played before and don't know how ability scores work.
Mooncursed Barbarian is your best bet for this build.
You're not going to get 1.5x Strength on your natural attack because you'll have claws and/or tail attack. If you don't go Mooncursed, pick up the Dangerous Tail feat.
Neither of the Oracle curses mentioned here are worthwhile for you.
Animal Fury likely isn't needed unless you want some of the powers with it as a prerequisite.


For a natural attack build, especially one with a lot of secondary attacks that get 1/2 Str mod, the Unchained actually seems better, getting a flat +2/3/4 to damage instead of a Str bump that will only half apply to some of the attacks. And I think it's agreed that the Temp HP is better than the Con bonus. There are some losses, like Fort saves, Str checks, etc.

I'm still not sold on Mooncursed based on the above comparison I did. Is the +4 AC and slightly increased damage dice really worth the loss of accuracy, CMD, Fort, Ref, and Will? CMD will especially be important for a grapple build.

I could get x1.5 Str if I avoided other natural attacks; that was my question really: is it viable to forego extra natural attacks and instead try to focus on maximizing the effectiveness of a single natural attack. I'm coming around to be ok with a beast build with lots of natural attacks, but am still partial to the idea of a build that just uses Bite.

You don't think a 1-level Oracle dip that will net me a 1d6 bite, Grab, and Swallow Whole all at 9th level is worth it? For a bite-based, grapple, eating-based build?

I agree, Animal Fury isn't needed; but it's built into the Raging Cannibal archetype I'm considering.


Remember that the larger size will give you reach.
The lack of actual ability score bonuses affects more than just saves; it will affect skills and features/abilities as well, and because it's a not a morale bonus you can't benefit from the Courageous weapon ability (put on an Amulet of Mighty Fists, in the case of a natural attack build). The temporary hit points from UnBarb rage won't stack with Raging Cannibal's Feast from Fury ability, by the way, whereas the bonus hit points from core Barbarian rage will.
For the Ravenous curse, Swallow Whole nauseates you for a round after disgorging (and depending on your GM it could be catastrophic is something cuts its way out) and you get nothing from the 10th level benefit. The curse entry also doesn't list the damage that swallow whole deals each round, which is a definite problem. The combat maneuver bonus is nice, though.
You'll get Grab at 11th level with Mooncursed, so that's not too far behind, though if you really want Swallow Whole, Mooncursed is a great option anyway as bigger Croco-man means bigger allowed targets to swallow and more natural armour means better stomach AC.

Natural Attacks said wrote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.

Bites are primary attacks, though, so you can focus on the bite while still using the other attacks.


RaizielDragon wrote:
I'm still not sold on Mooncursed based on the above comparison I did. Is the +4 AC and slightly increased damage dice really worth the loss of accuracy, CMD, Fort, Ref, and Will? CMD will especially be important for a grapple build.

While the comparison isn't wrong, I still prefer Mooncursed. The size increase gives you more choices for what can be grappled. The accuracy isn't a large loss since all primary attacks use your full attack so it's not like you'll be dealing with the regular -5/-10/-15 of tertiary attacks. Setting also matters a lot, for instance will this be for an Adventure Path? Cause those things are alarmingly easy for even lightly twinked characters. As to the saves... well my table uses Unchained as the only barbarian so it's not a Fort loss for me, Ref isn't a HUGE deal most of the time, and Will, I plan on taking Iron Will for my Croc cause I want a Plover familiar (through Familiar Bond) for theme reasons but yeah, the Will is the only real loss from the Archetype for me and even then it's only a -1 after the feat at level 11 (and who cares about level 20).


Size doesn't affect what can/cannot be grappled. A tiny creature can grapple a colossal creature, if their grapple check is good enough (good luck with that with the special size modifiers though). If you just mean because of the special size modifier, that's a whopping +1 for being large, which I took into account in my comparison anyway.

I agree that the Fort isn't a big difference if you are going Unchained, and that give me pause for a second, when I was considering Unchained (and I still am).

Improved Will costs a feat; in your case, one you were going to take anyway because of your familiar, but a feat slot none the less. While we are discussing table variation (like you only having access to Unchained) and particular builds, I have the option of taking a feat at first level to become large (no ability score adjustments). So I can be large all the time (with all the pros and cons that entails) and have (effectively) Improved Will when raging, while you can have Improved Will all the time and be Large (if you choose to do so) while raging. I also have the option of an archetype that increases size from level 1 of Rage with +4Str/Con, -2 Dex, and +2 NA, going up to +6 Str and +3 NA at 11th, and +8/+6 Str/Con and +4 NA at 20th. With the option of an effective Giant Form at 14th, if I want to spend 2x rounds of rage while in the form.

So, in my case, I wouldn't be getting increased damage dice or AC from Mooncursed, though Mooncursed is more flexible due to having size optiosn when activating. Mooncursed also gives up Improved Uncanny Dodge, which, while not super amazing, is something. And it's an AC benefit, essentially (not being flanked means +2 AC when you ARE flanked), as well as a very, very, specific form of DR in that rogues can't SA you because of flanking (if low enough level).

Factor in that it ALSO takes up your archetype slot, because it's not compatible with other archetypes (Invulnerable Rager and Raging Cannibal, the one I'm actually interested in) and it starts to look not appetizing for this build. It DOES stack with Savage Barbarian, which is appealing, but in the end, I probably wouldn't use Savage Barbarian anyway. The extra natural armor would be nice with Swallow Whole, but I don't think it's worth the loss of armor. I'd like this to be an unarmored build, but I could flavor some hide armor as my own skin if need be. I'm also considering passing on the Swallow Whole curse and just going with the Bite/Grab one. So I can take a 1-level dip in Oracle to get Grab by 9th level; which will put me 1 level behind on my Barbarian stuff compared to your build, admittedly.

All that said, I'm not knocking the archetype; it's a 1st party archetype that gives the ability to increase size while raging, which is awesome. I just have other options that I'm more interested in, and that kind of negate or replace the benefits I would get from it. Though, I haven't completely ruled it out either.


Perhaps I'm missing something about what you gain when you change form with Mooncursed/Beast Shape. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the below is what you get when you change form:

1-10: Medium size, +2 Str, +2 NA, Swim 30', low-light vision, bite attack, tail slap attack

11-19: Large size (would have reach, but Crocodile doesn't, so you don't?), +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 NA, Swim 30' (or 60'?), low-light vision, bite attack, tail slap attack, grab, trip? (this is tied to the Death Roll ability; do you get the Death Roll ability?)

20: Huge size (has 10' reach now?), +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 NA, Swim 30' (or 90'?), low-light vision, bite attack, tail slap attack, grab, trip? (this is tied to the Death Roll ability; do you get the Death Roll ability?)

I'm assuming you don't get Sprint, Hold Breath, Death Roll, or racial bonuses to Stealth in water, and I'm not 100% sure about if you get the natural attacks either, as that isn't mentioned in the spell.


RaizielDragon wrote:
I'm not 100% sure about if you get the natural attacks either, as that isn't mentioned in the spell.

If it's a polymorph effect (it is, since it imitates beast shape), you get all the natural attacks the chosen form has: "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks."

Regarding reach, normaly a crocodile would be large (long). One could argue that the hybrid form is humanoid enough to count as large (tall) and thus giving reach as normal.

Swim speed stays at 30 feet, you always take the lower number (or worse maneuverability) between what the form has and what the polymorph effect allows.

No trip, since you don't get death roll.


Ok. I see it now; under the Polymorph rules. I read over them, and now I think I would also lose the Lizardfolks darkvision, and any armor bonus, though I would gain the ability to breathe underwater.


I would say the Hybrid form would grant 10ft reach as you are a Large humanoid. Unfortunately, Beast Shape never lists the Death Roll ability so you wouldn't get that in either form. Swim speed will always be 30ft because that is the swim speed of a crocodile, Beast Shape allows up to those speeds... so a Shark based Mooncursed would gain 60ft Swim at level 11+

Don't underrate the bonus of having Animal Fury if you are going to be a grappler, even if you already have a bite attack (Free bite attack as part of maintaining or breaking free from a grapple, +2 to all grapple checks that round if it hits)... this allows you to deal bite damage twice when maintaining to deal damage, 4 times with Greater Grapple (maintain as a move), and 6 times with Rapid Grappler! Assuming all of your grapple checks and attack rolls are successful and all 3 of your grapple checks are to deal damage... that's a lot of hurt.

Raging grappler adds damage when you initiate a grapple "as if you maintained to deal damage" as well as making them prone on an actual maintain.


RaizielDragon wrote:
Size doesn't affect what can/cannot be grappled. A tiny creature can grapple a colossal creature, if their grapple check is good enough (good luck with that with the special size modifiers though). If you just mean because of the special size modifier, that's a whopping +1 for being large, which I took into account in my comparison anyway.

Could have sworn the "one size category larger than you" thing applied to Grapple... it's part of Bull Rush, Drag, Overrun, Reposition and Trip... but it's not part of Grapple... the one that actually makes no sense for it not to be on. Odd.


Yeah. It doesn't make much sense that a fairy can pin a colossal red dragon (and it probably can't due to CMB/CMD differences) but it CAN try!

So, to go back to my original summary of the difference between Mooncursed and core Rage, and update it, Mooncursed nets you:

+4 AC, -1/-2/-3 attack, ~+1/+2/+4 damage, -0/-1/-2 CMD, -2/-3/-4 Fort, -0/-1/-2 Ref, -2/-3/-4 Will, Swim 30', low-light vision, bite, tail slap, and grab (at 11th).

I think the loss of armor benefits (because of Polymorph effects) completely negates the NA bonus, since, at best, it will break even, but more than likely will actually be a loss.

As a Lizardfolk, I'd already have a swim speed, and a bite (though not low-light or dark vision, like I thought...). I'd also have claws, which is about equivalent to having a single tail slap.

So, the only benefit I'd be gaining is low-light vision and, once I hit 11, grab. Now grab is a good ability, and is the main reason I'm still considering the archetype. But I can take 1 level dip of Oracle to get grab at 9th level.


Don't forget the bonuses from size increase at lvl 11 as well. One size larger for all damage rolls, +1 to CMB and CMD, -1 to attack rolls and AC, 10ft reach, grab.

Lvl 20 offers Huge, increasing all of those bonuses and penalties.

As far as Armor goes, I believe you retain its bonuses while using Hybrid form since Lycanthropes still use armor when they are in Hybrid form. Armor and Natural armor stack ;) You would lose your armor as it melds into your body when you assume animal form though.

I'm not saying whether or not it's the best way to go, that's up to how you want to play, but I didn't want you to overlook those things before deciding. Honestly, Grab is great but I wouldn't choose an archetype based only upon that, you don't "need" Grab to be deadly but the +4 would be nice. You do gain a 30ft Swim speed while using shifting rage in either form so you are flexible from Lizardfolk as far as having a Swim speed.

The Savage Jaw rage power allows you to gain Grab as a Free action once per rage... not the greatest option but it's there.


RaizielDragon wrote:

I think the loss of armor benefits (because of Polymorph effects) completely negates the NA bonus, since, at best, it will break even, but more than likely will actually be a loss.

As a Lizardfolk, I'd already have a swim speed, and a bite (though not low-light or dark vision, like I thought...). I'd also have claws, which is about equivalent to having a single tail slap.

With my build I planed on taking Beast Totem for the Natural armor so I'll be getting some nice Claws to go with it but between Guarded Stand and Imp. Beast Totem I'll have a nice +6 to AC around 10ish. Add in the Bloodthirsty armor anchant that Mooncursed gets better benefit from on a +1 Breastplate, I will have a nice 28AC while Raging at level 10. A ring of Prot and a Buckler should round things up nicely.

Tyrant Lizard King wrote:

Don't forget the bonuses from size increase at lvl 11 as well. One size larger for all damage rolls, +1 to CMB and CMD, -1 to attack rolls and AC, 10ft reach, grab.

Lvl 20 offers Huge, increasing all of those bonuses and penalties.

You might be leaving out that the size increase lowers Dex which adds the CMB, so it effectively negates itself.


CMB is only STR, BAB and size. CMD does use DEX but also STR. Yes, the size bonus is negated by the DEX penalty but the STR and nat armor bonuses boost them respectively...

From Medium Size (Using Beast Shape II & III from Shifting Rage)
Large CMB= +3 [+1 size, +2 STR(from +4 to score)]
Large CMD= +2 [+1 size, -1 DEX(from -2 to score), +2 STR(from +4 to score)
Large AC= +2 [-1 size, -1 DEX(from -2 to score), +4 natural armor
Large Melee= +1 [-1 size, +2 STR(from +4 to score)

Huge CMB= +5 [+2 size, +3 STR(from +6 to score)]
Huge CMD= +3 [+2 size, -2 DEX(from -4 to score), +3 STR(from +6 to score)
Huge AC= +2 [-2 size, -2 DEX(from -4 to score), +6 natural armor
Huge Melee= +1 [-2 size, +3 STR(from +6 to score)

Aside from the increased size for damage rolls, your AC and attack rolls do go up but remain equal for both Large and Huge sizes. The real difference is in CMB and CMD which both increase the larger you become from your base size.


At the level you get Large from Mooncursed, you'd be getting +6 Str from base Rage, so that's +3 CMB/CMD/Attack. When you get Huge, base gets +8 Str, so that's +4 CMB/CMD/Attack. So regular beats everything you have listed, except for the AC (as I said before, Mooncursed is +4 AC over regular, assuming regular armor still works; I'm not convinced it does) and CMB at 20th (Mooncursed edges out regular by 1). Touch AC for regular will be better too.


So basically you started arguing that Mooncursed was inferior due to ability scores even with the size bonuses, but you neglected to tell us the actual reason you were saying that is because you have access to really broken 3rd-party feats and archetypes?
As I mentioned before, don't forget that if you do end up using Raging Cannibal you definitely want to be a Core Barbarian, since Feed from Fury doesn't stack with UnBarb's temporary HP.
Oh, and Raging Cannibal also gives up Improved Uncanny Dodge just like Mooncursed, but also gives up regular Uncanny Dodge as well as Damage Reduction.
Be aware that all my advice assumes you DON'T have some 3rd-party feat or archetype that gets you everything super easy.


I wouldn't say that any of the 3rd party stuff I mentioned is broken, or "super easy". There is a feat that increases your size without changing ability scores. So you get the size bonuses/penalties from the regular and special size modifiers (which balance out for the most part), increase in damage dice, and reach. It has to be taken at 1st level, and has Str/Con requirements. There's also an archetype that is really similar to Mooncursed, except it more closely mimics Giant Form rather than Beast Form, but without actually being Giant Form, and therefore not being a polymorph affect; basically you get all the same benefits of rage, but as size bonuses instead of morale bonuses. But it would have a lot of the same issues as Mooncursed; taking penalties for being large.

Despite all of that, my main argument has been comparing Mooncursed to core barbarian. I think I've shown pretty definitively that the main benefit you get is the increased damage dice and reach, and that there are some significant losses to gain those two things. And the increased damage dice is almost matched by the extra Strength you get from Core barbarian. It's a very flavorful archetype that gives you almost the same benefits as core barbarian, but not quite. And I don't need the archetype to provide the crocodile/alligator flavor, as I already have Lizardfolk to do that.

And agreed, Raging Cannibal does give up stuff. Which was one of my main arguments against Mooncursed; that it ALSO takes up an archetype slot by replacing class features that other popular archetypes replace, removing the ability to stack it with those popular archetypes. So if I DO want Raging Cannibal (which I kind of do, as it's really the only thing I've found that rewards you for eating your opponent, which is what would differentiate this build from any other natural attacking barbarian) then I can't be Mooncursed.


Now that you mention it, armor would indeed by deactivated in shifting rage form. Compare Agathial Vigilante, who does something similar, but has explicit text that equipment including armor stays usable.

Man, that book gets worse every time I look at it.


I wasn't arguing Mooncursed was better. I was just stating things you didn't mention. If you weren't Lizardfolk I would say you should. You will already have a bite attack and a swim speed so the only things Shifting Rage will give you aside from the size changes would be Low-light vision, reach, grab and increased natural armor. All things considered, they are equal in my opinion.

Rage/ Shifting Rage
Attack: +4/ +1
CMB: +4/ +5
CMD: +4/ +3
AC: -2/ +2
Special: +4 Will saves, Improved Uncanny Dodge, +4 HP/HD/ *Bite, Grab, Low-Light Vision, Reach 10-15ft, *Swim 30ft, Huge creature(Hybrid or Crocodile)

*Lizardfolk has

AC, size and Grab are the biggest bonuses you get from Mooncursed as a Lizardfolk. The other stat differences obviously are better for basic Barbarian. It's up to you if you want to reduce the benefits from Rage to gain the abilities granted from Shifting Rage. Personally, I love the idea of being Huge and grappling people and "eating them" through bite damage so I would choose Mooncursed simply because I think I would have more fun that way, regardless of the loss of normal Rage bonuses. I also think it fits the idea of a Killer Croc mimic, he was easily Large. Alternatively, you could also play as a Lizardfolk Scion and just go regular Barbarian but I think Scions lose their Swim speed.

@Derklord Yeah, for an animal form... but if you look at Lycanthropes, which have a Hybrid form, it states that their armor doesn't meld in Hybrid form but it does for animal form. Mooncursed is based off of lycanthropy so I think it's intended to function the same way, allowing you to still have your armor bonus only for Hybrid form of Shifting Rage.

*All lycanthropes have three forms—a humanoid form, an animal form, and a hybrid form. Equipment does not meld with the new form between humanoid and hybrid form, but does between those forms and animal form.*


One thing the Mooncursed has over the Core Barb that I was thinking is that it can dip a level of Bloodrager with little overlap. You'll need to investing in Extra Rage if you want to do it more than a few times a day but it's worth noting.


I'd say it's still rage and can't be stacked.

@Tyrant Lizard King: Good point, the archetype does explicitly mention lycanthropes' hybrid form. I wish the actuall clasas feature would say that, but I guess we can file that under clear intend.


Derklord wrote:
I'd say it's still rage and can't be stacked.

Just like Fighter's Weapon Training is different than Swashbuckler's Weapon Training, Rage, or in this case Shifting Rage, is different than Bloodrage. Both grant different bonuses and thus stack. What you allow in your games is on you, but as far as RAW is concerned I see nothing that implies they do not.


"If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?
No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects."
emphasis mine
Shifting Rage is definitely a form of rage.


No Killer Croc build is complete without some way to throw big rocks.


I was working on a pretty similar idea with a lizardfolk brutal pugilist in mind. But would it work better to go half orc to qualify as a goblin to get feral gnasher?

I guess I'm stuck on what would work better, improved grapple with the bonus bites from raging grappler and animal fury or going right for the grab ability of feral gnasher(with the same bonus bites I guess). Improved grapple needing improved unarmed strike.

Would be tricky talking either of my DMs into the lizardfolk but they're really cool while half orcs can go straight to feral gnasher but aren't as cool thematically. Am I overthinking this?


How would a Half-Orc qualify for Feral Gnasher? They are Orc subtype, not Goblin. I would stay Lizardfolk though for thematics and their swim speed, +2 nat armor, claws and +2 STR & +2 CON.


Straight out Feral Mutagen Alchemist. You drink your mutagen and become a monsterous looking hulking dude with bonuses to natural attack cmb/cmd and various stats as well there is a ton of feat support and alchemical discoveries that help build it further.


Tyrant Lizard King wrote:
How would a Half-Orc qualify for Feral Gnasher? They are Orc subtype, not Goblin. I would stay Lizardfolk though for thematics and their swim speed, +2 nat armor, claws and +2 STR & +2 CON.

Half orcs count as human and orc. Racial heritage feat lets you count as a goblin.

Its a bit much to get there but its still takes a while to get all the grappling feats as a lizardfolk barbarian. I do like the lizardfolk better but I wouldn't be ready until level 3ish.


Synthesist summoner, Skinwalker (crocodile) monk? there are a lot of ways to tackle this...


So, so far there have been lots of options on how to make the character LOOK the part of killer croc. Being a Lizardfolk, Skinwalker, Druid, Mooncursed, etc. I don't really have a problem LOOKING like a croc/gator.

The issue is that there is very little content that actually involves consuming pieces of your opponent. I know there are 2 Barbarian archetypes (Raging Cannibal and Flesheater I think are the 2; can't check right now). There's also something in the Inquisitor (archetype maybe? or just an inquisition) I think called Sineater (or Sin Eater) that doesn't HAVE to involve consuming a part of their body, but it can.

Beyond that, I can't seem to find anything that deals with actually eating parts of your opponent. If anyone has any suggestions for that aspect of the character, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I think most other aspects (being/looking the part, having a bite attack, being good at grappling) have been covered very well by everyone so far. Talking about them any further is really just arguing about which one each person likes better. Which I'm not discouraging, but I feel like it's beating a dead horse at this point. There are lots of ways to cover all those aspects; there are very little to cover the cannibalistic part, other than just flavoring it and saying "I eat some of the flesh off his body after combat is over". And even then, there are some implications the rules don't cover (diseases or sickness carried by the body, effects of raw meat, etc.)


Have you looked through any Prestige Classes? There's always some situational, RP-heavy, and/or gimmicky stuff in those. Might also want to look at the benefits from the Deific, Demonic, and Celestial Obedience feats (Diverse Obedience can get you Evangelist or Sentinel benefits for Deific Obedience without needing to multiclass, and the Evangelist PrC works well with any class). I'm not sure if anything would suit what you want, but it's worth looking through.


RaizielDragon wrote:

So, so far there have been lots of options on how to make the character LOOK the part of killer croc. Being a Lizardfolk, Skinwalker, Druid, Mooncursed, etc. I don't really have a problem LOOKING like a croc/gator.

The issue is that there is very little content that actually involves consuming pieces of your opponent. I know there are 2 Barbarian archetypes (Raging Cannibal and Flesheater I think are the 2; can't check right now). There's also something in the Inquisitor (archetype maybe? or just an inquisition) I think called Sineater (or Sin Eater) that doesn't HAVE to involve consuming a part of their body, but it can.

Beyond that, I can't seem to find anything that deals with actually eating parts of your opponent. If anyone has any suggestions for that aspect of the character, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I think most other aspects (being/looking the part, having a bite attack, being good at grappling) have been covered very well by everyone so far. Talking about them any further is really just arguing about which one each person likes better. Which I'm not discouraging, but I feel like it's beating a dead horse at this point. There are lots of ways to cover all those aspects; there are very little to cover the cannibalistic part, other than just flavoring it and saying "I eat some of the flesh off his body after combat is over". And even then, there are some implications the rules don't cover (diseases or sickness carried by the body, effects of raw meat, etc.)

take synthesist summoner then get the enhanced size, bite, grapple (bite) and swallow hole

then subclass into whatever you want (fleash eater sounds awesome because you can rage and get the extra strength for grapple rolls, sin eater takes place after the battle)


The Sin Eater archetype for Inquisitor gets some healing when you eat an enemy’s body - seems OK if not great, maybe it could be combined with Death Knell or the Enemy's Heart spell for some thematic fun.

The Bloody Fist and Feast of Blood rage powers allow you to rip out an enemy's internal organs and eat them. That sound pretty cool, but the mechanics don’t look very effective to me.


Bloody Fist and Feast of Blood are both very in-theme with the build idea, and I've been considering them.

My only issue is that they don't come online until late level (12th I think?) and they are based on achieving a crit. I know Barbarian has a few tricks at guaranteeing crits at later levels, so might still be plausible.

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