Hands Detachment feat unforeseen consequences?


Rules Questions


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I've got a few questions about Hand's Detachment that I haven't been able to find an answer to. The first is summed up as "What's its Constitution Score?", the second is "What is its creature type?", and the last is "Does it retain the Grab ability?"

Background information for all:

Hands Detachment text:
Use the statistics for a crawling hand to represent the detached hand, save that the hand isn’t undead, doesn’t have the mark quarry ability, and shares your alignment.
[Haunted Heroes Handbook pg. 24]

Additional background info for first:

Crawling Hand stat block:
Str 13, Dex 11, Con --, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 14
[Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 pg. 59]

Undead traits:
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
[Don't have the book and can't find page attribution online anywhere]

First question long form: Seeing as how a Crawling Hand is normally undead, it has no Constitution score because that is an undead specific trait (also applies to Constructs, but the feat doesn't say that it becomes a Construct). Since it is no longer undead, does it gain a Constitution score? If so, what does that become? Since you're losing the undead type, it would no longer be able to utilise undead traits, such as using Charisma mod to determine all the things Constitution scores are used for.

I know that the general rule is that if a trait/ability/feat calls out that you get x, y, and z but doesn't say anything about q, you don't get q. But this seems like an exception to that. This specifically says that it is not undead, which is why it even lacks a Constitution score to begin with, and is silent on the matter of the Constitution score.

Additional background info for second and last:

Familiar rule:
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
[Core Rulebook pg. 82]

Second question long form: The feat only says that it isn't undead, but doesn't say that it becomes anything else. Its creature type would become your own, since it's your own hand, right? Or would it become a Magical Beast according to the usual Familiar rule, even though it was never an animal to begin with?

Last question long form: Seeing as how the feat calls out Mark Quarry as something it doesn't gain, but doesn't call out Grab as either gained or not gained...do you gain it as part of the Crawling Hand stats? It doesn't fall into the normal "retains" rule for a familiar. Yeah, x, y, and z mentioned, no q mentioned, means no q...but still want to know for certain.

I really want to make terrible hand related puns while grappling a person with just my hand and being able to attack them as myself or vice-versa with the Fighter Eldritch Guardian / Mutation Warrior archetypes combination that I saw elsewhere in the forums. And I can see how these issues might end up being relevant for multiple reasons.


Corrinus wrote:
First question long form: Seeing as how a Crawling Hand is normally undead, it has no Constitution score because that is an undead specific trait (also applies to Constructs, but the feat doesn't say that it becomes a Construct). Since it is no longer undead, does it gain a Constitution score? If so, what does that become? Since you're losing the undead type, it would no longer be able to utilise undead traits, such as using Charisma mod to determine all the things Constitution scores are used for.

I can see two alternatives.

Either treat its Con score as 10 for all intents and purposes (basically only Fort save since its hp scales of its master).
Or roll 3d6 to grant it a new Con score.

Corrinus wrote:
Second question long form: The feat only says that it isn't undead, but doesn't say that it becomes anything else. Its creature type would become your own, since it's your own hand, right? Or would it become a Magical Beast according to the usual Familiar rule, even though it was never an animal to begin with?

Probably Magical Beast.

A zombie can be made of a gnome, but it won't have the creature type of the gnome.

Corrinus wrote:
Last question long form: Seeing as how the feat calls out Mark Quarry as something it doesn't gain, but doesn't call out Grab as either gained or not gained...do you gain it as part of the Crawling Hand stats? It doesn't fall into the normal "retains" rule for a familiar. Yeah, x, y, and z mentioned, no q mentioned, means no q...but still want to know for certain.

Yes, it would gain the Grab ability.

The feat states that the hand would gain all abilities [x, y, z] with the exception of z. So it would gain x and y.


Another question posed would be if the detached hand still benefits from the Possessed Hand feat, since the feat predicates that you are the one that needs to be attacking with the hand in order to gain the bonuses.

Possessed Hand wrote:
Any attack you make with a one-handed weapon, light weapon, unarmed strike, or natural attack with your possessed hand gains a +1 insight bonus on the attack roll and damage roll.

On a side note, a mauler hand would boast a 22 strength score at level 3. Amusing.


Wonderstell wrote:
Either treat its Con score as 10 for all intents and purposes[...]

That seems the most reasonable of the options.

Wonderstell wrote:
Probably Magical Beast.

It would make a really weird Magical Beast...I'm still leaning toward it's creature type being the same as your own...though another alternative I saw in another thread after posting this is that it could be an Outsider (subtype) or something else based on flavour of "what" is possessing it.

Wonderstell wrote:
Yes, it would gain the Grab ability.

That's what I was leaning toward.

Pounce wrote:
Another question posed would be if the detached hand still benefits from the Possessed Hand feat, since the feat predicates that you are the one that needs to be attacking with the hand in order to gain the bonuses.

That is a good question that I had not thought of...and have not seen an answer to. If I were the DM, I would rule that it does get it, since you wouldn't be able to get something that it doesn't get itself.

Pounce wrote:
On a side note, a mauler hand would boast a 22 strength score at level 3. Amusing.

Yeah, I saw that familiar archetype and am using that with the character I'm working on.


I would give it a Con equal to the Cha to make its bonuses match the undead (which uses Cha for Con).


Corrinus wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Probably Magical Beast.
It would make a really weird Magical Beast...I'm still leaning toward it's creature type being the same as your own...though another alternative I saw in another thread after posting this is that it could be an Outsider (subtype) or something else based on flavour of "what" is possessing it.

No such thing as a "really weird Magical Beast"!

Bestiary wrote:
Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2 (in which case the magical beast knows at least one language, but can't necessarily speak). Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but are sometimes merely bizarre in appearance or habits.

But it would definitely be a "really weird" Humanoid. Since it lacks, like, everything that a Humanoid creature should have.

Bestiary wrote:
A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a human-like torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They are usually Small or Medium (with the exception of giants). Every humanoid creature also has a specific subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu.

The logical choice would be to treat it as a Magical Beast, as the familiar rules intended for.

============================

It would be strange to let the hand take the Outsider creature type since even if the ghost comes from the great beyond, the body it inhabites is still from this plane. Creature type is not dependant on the psyche, but the body.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Pounce wrote:

Another question posed would be if the detached hand still benefits from the Possessed Hand feat, since the feat predicates that you are the one that needs to be attacking with the hand in order to gain the bonuses.

Possessed Hand wrote:
Any attack you make with a one-handed weapon, light weapon, unarmed strike, or natural attack with your possessed hand gains a +1 insight bonus on the attack roll and damage roll.
On a side note, a mauler hand would boast a 22 strength score at level 3. Amusing.

I'm building a mauler detached hand familiar right now, and the biggest issue I'm having is that, when it becomes Medium size, it goes from Dexterity 11 to Dexterity 5, making it have a -3 Dexterity bonus, which translates to an AC penalty. :(

Shadow Lodge

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Just be careful since the 'new' Mauler can only shapeshift three times a day. It's BS, but might come up some how.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Dragonborn3 wrote:
Just be careful since the 'new' Mauler can only shapeshift three times a day. It's BS, but might come up some how.

That's fine, I plan to use it to strangle casters more often than becoming a big hulking hand-beast. :-D

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I was trying to come up with ways to boost its AC to a reasonable level, but it's going to be insanely expensive. Now I'm thinking I just let it have an insanely low AC and just try to mitigate damage in other ways.


Ride your own hand and use mounted combat?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Lol I thought about doing this as a halfling, which would legit let that work, but that's a bit too far into insanity for me. Lol

What I am doing is taking Mailer's Endurance to boost its HP to almost that of the main characters. Will also likely buy it a belt (read: bracelet) of con to increase its HP even more.


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cartmanbeck wrote:
Lol I thought about doing this as a halfling, which would legit let that work, but that's a bit too far into insanity for me. Lol

But wait, there's more! Put a wizard hook on the new arm stump!

Shadow Lodge

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cartmanbeck wrote:
I was trying to come up with ways to boost its AC to a reasonable level, but it's going to be insanely expensive. Now I'm thinking I just let it have an insanely low AC and just try to mitigate damage in other ways.

If you don't want a hand the size of a pony what about a figment familiar? It doesn't die.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Dragonborn3 wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
I was trying to come up with ways to boost its AC to a reasonable level, but it's going to be insanely expensive. Now I'm thinking I just let it have an insanely low AC and just try to mitigate damage in other ways.
If you don't want a hand the size of a pony what about a figment familiar? It doesn't die.

Neither does the hand.... if it's destroyed it grows back in 2d4 days.

Shadow Lodge

Interesting, but time consuming. Plus having a hand that's just your imagination manifested is funny,


cartmanbeck wrote:

Lol I thought about doing this as a halfling, which would legit let that work, but that's a bit too far into insanity for me. Lol

What I am doing is taking Mailer's Endurance to boost its HP to almost that of the main characters. Will also likely buy it a belt (read: bracelet) of con to increase its HP even more.

Boosting its Con doesn't do anything for its hitpoints. The best you can do is put it on the character, and pass on half of those hitpoints.

Sovereign Court

Every time I see this, I think of that scene from Vampire Hunter D where the hand tries to wake up D, then (failing that) crawls away, eats a bunch of dirt, then sucks up the Crimson Mist that is about to eat D.


Quote:
You can remove your possessed hand, allowing the possessing spirit to animate and control its motion.

Sounds like an animated object to me. Though the spirit, if not an undead, must be an outsider. But it's not like a creature "has" to have a type. There are a handful of effects that create typeless creatures, like the Phantom Steed spell.

Note that as a familiar, the hand does count as "a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type", regardless of what its type may be.


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Razata wrote:
Every time I see this, I think of that scene from Vampire Hunter D where the hand tries to wake up D, then (failing that) crawls away, eats a bunch of dirt, then sucks up the Crimson Mist that is about to eat D.

I'm reasonably confident that the ability was at least partially inspired by D, along with deliciously cheesy B & C movies from yestercentury.

Typewise, I'm leaning toward aberration, with the "counts as magical beast" thing still applying of course.

Otherwise, I'm soooooo stealing that "mount your own hand" gimmick, crass jokes be damned.

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QuidEst wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:

Lol I thought about doing this as a halfling, which would legit let that work, but that's a bit too far into insanity for me. Lol

What I am doing is taking Mailer's Endurance to boost its HP to almost that of the main characters. Will also likely buy it a belt (read: bracelet) of con to increase its HP even more.

Boosting its Con doesn't do anything for its hitpoints. The best you can do is put it on the character, and pass on half of those hitpoints.

I don't think that's necessarily true. From what I remember, if you cast Bear's Endurance on your familiar, it gains hit points. Similarly if you put a belt of Constitution on it. I know that adding to it's inherent Con score wouldn't make a difference though.


cartmanbeck wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:

Lol I thought about doing this as a halfling, which would legit let that work, but that's a bit too far into insanity for me. Lol

What I am doing is taking Mailer's Endurance to boost its HP to almost that of the main characters. Will also likely buy it a belt (read: bracelet) of con to increase its HP even more.

Boosting its Con doesn't do anything for its hitpoints. The best you can do is put it on the character, and pass on half of those hitpoints.
I don't think that's necessarily true. From what I remember, if you cast Bear's Endurance on your familiar, it gains hit points. Similarly if you put a belt of Constitution on it. I know that adding to it's inherent Con score wouldn't make a difference though.

I'm pretty sure neither of those things happen:

Wizard wrote:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.

The "Hit Points" clause overrides the usual method of determining total hit points, including the creature's own Constitution score. Modifying said Constitution score would have no effect.

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Well that... Sucks lol. I guess I'll focus on raising the character's Con then.


If you make the hand a mauler, you'd also want to pick up the mauler's endurance feat for some more hit points.


Quote:
If the hand is destroyed, the spirit regenerates your missing hand in 2d4 days.

Note that it says "destroyed" instead of "dies". This wording only works for a few types of creatures, and animated object is one of them.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Melkiador wrote:
Quote:
If the hand is destroyed, the spirit regenerates your missing hand in 2d4 days.
Note that it says "destroyed" instead of "dies". This wording only works for a few types of creatures, and animated object is one of them.

Hmm... that does make me question. I would probably rule, in my own game, that its type is Undead, since it's a piece of flesh that's being animated by a spirit of some type. But, as of the moment, I'll just stick with "It counts as a magical beast, so that's what I'll call it."

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