I've not played in groups that heavily rely on Summon Monster spells, and only once used a called outsider. I'm planning to make an Arcanist with the Occultist archetype. My question is simply; Does an outsider summoned via the Summon Monster spell retain all knowledge skills and the ability to communicate said knowledge to the caster?
If I summoned a Xill, as an example of a creature that speaks common and has a +14 to Knowledge(Arcana & Planes), could I use it to make a knowledge check for me? If so, is there a limit to using a summoned creatures knowledge checks in this way?
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No such limit is written. Summoning creatures to take advantage of their skills and spellcasting is a standard tactic.
No such limit is written. Summoning creatures to take advantage of their skills and spellcasting is a standard tactic.
Yeah, but their spellcasting is significantly limited by the nature of Summon Monster. No magical effects that last longer than the summon monster spell, no summoning, etc. They obey your orders as well as they can understand them unquestioningly, as far as I know. I forget if they have specific rules for being mistreated.
I understand a called monster is an actual outsider that you've brought to your plane of existence, but I don't know if summoned outsiders are actual outsiders with true names, born of a soul, etc. If they were, why would your Summoned outsider take 24 hours to 'reform'?
Hence why I was asking for input.
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There are no limitations on skills. All limitations are written into the spell.
Also, what is this 24 hour rule you are talking about?
Also, what is this 24 hour rule you are talking about?
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
Emphasis mine. It seems a bit strange to me too, but I can't find any further explanation regarding the outsiders you summon.
The most notable limitation on using Summon Monster to gain knowledge is the duration; talking tends to take time. It might be a free action but there very much is a limit to how much you can say before stretching believability.
Make sure to balance how much information you want it to tell you with how long it would take to do other things.
Make sure to balance how much information you want it to tell you with how long it would take to do other things.
This is part of the reason I wanted to use a summoner or an occultist arcanist. Having several minutes to interrogate a summoned outsider could be extremely useful, and even after a battle there could be time to discuss the creatures fought or environment. There are summoned monsters with exceptionally good bonuses to ALL knowledge skills. At the right level, it's basically like having a situational bardic knowledge.
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Summoning has had a LOT of different "fluff" interpretations of the various mechanics, occasionally multiple times during a single edition, when it wasn't fully ignored entirely.
I recall in 3.5 the loosely general idea was that you summoned an echo of a planar creature, hence the lack of harm to the original. There were optional rules for summoning the same specific creature each time (good for information gathering, justified the 24 hour rule), upgrading via calling the creature to give it items for later summonings, and such.
Pathfinder, last I remember seeing, runs on the idea that a summoned creature is literally created from the spell energy rather than transported or echoed from elsewhere, a sort of hard light hologram of the intended creature. I could be wrong, of course.
Personally, I think this devalues the flavor of summon monster. I prefer the interpretation of the spell energy being an offering, a bribe for a favor from a creature who can send a fragment of itself through the summoner's request. More powerful creatures require more attractive offerings. I think it just gives so much more complexity to the way the outer planes and such work.
Hound archons can gather information from summoned lantern archos, updating their understanding of the mortal world piece by half-minute piece. Devils use lemures as bait for foolish summoners, hauling back catches of spell energy and names of those willing to risk damnation for power. All sorts of fun stuff.
But yeah, tldr: Summoned creatures can use all their abilities outside of those specifically restricted/forbidden by the summon spell/school of magic (like teleport, durations, etc). Knowledge skills aren't restricted, so they can use them. I had a player use a summoned earth mephit to diplomacy down an elder earth elemental, since no one in the group spoke Terran!
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Now that's some tasty fluff! Thanks for the input. I think I'll take to that view as well. Though I completely forgot summoned creatures can't teleport around. Guess I'll have to Call a lantern archon if I want a long distance messenger... Anyways, awesome! Thank you.
" It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again." means there actually is a creature...
Actually, I find the quote supports the echo/image-of-a-real-creature theory. A real creature would need to recover or heal, not reform. If an outsider in its entirety were ever brought to the edge of death, nothing suggests they suddenly go poof into a cloud of plane-stuff.
Either you would choose to ignore the 'reform' bit in favor of the flavor provided by The Black Bard, or you go with the echo/image view. At least the latter would prevent you from trying to convince a summoned creature to deliver a message to its higher ranking kin... But the former definitely has a nicer flavor.
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Also, what is this 24 hour rule you are talking about?Emphasis mine. It seems a bit strange to me too, but I can't find any further explanation regarding the outsiders you summon.
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
That is strange. I don't even know why that exist. There is nothing to stop you from summoning another creature of the exact same type.
That is strange. I don't even know why that exist. There is nothing to stop you from summoning another creature of the exact same type.
Wouldn't the quote mentioned do exactly that? You've summoned a creature (Say, a hound archon), and it falls in battle. For the next 24 hours, you may not summon a hound archon again. That's how I read it.
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For the next 24 hours you may not summon Bob the Hound archon. Tim, Frank, or any of the other hound archons are fine, there are more than one of them.
Actually, for the next 24 hours, no one can summon Bob, if it applied to all hound archons then you can only successfully summon when you are the first person to attempt it after the 24 hour clock expires after the last time that, somewhere in the multiverse, someone had a summons of that type "die."
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For the next 24 hours you may not summon Bob the Hound archon. Tim, Frank, or any of the other hound archons are fine, there are more than one of them.
Actually, for the next 24 hours, no one can summon Bob, if it applied to all hound archons then you can only successfully summon when you are the first person to attempt it after the 24 hour clock expires after the last time that, somewhere in the multiverse, someone had a summons of that type "die."
Now, that's a bit of an exaggeration. The text doesn't say 'Everyone'. It says 'You'. It'd be a better hypothesis to think that every summoner gets their own 'Bob', their own 'Frank', their own 'Tim', maybe even a 'Jimmy' and 'Sabrina'. As they gain better and better access to Summon Monster spells, their repertoire grows.
Anyways... This seems like it could be a topic all on its own. I think I'll start a new thread about it now.
Edit: Here