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If one wizard on the material plane co-located with another wizard on the shadow plane and they both cast Create Pit on a third caster who was shadow walking between them could we all go outside and get some fresh air?
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Yeah, you technically may roll the reflex save. But if you're still in the pit, you fall regadless of that result as the save does not allow you to defy gravity.
If you make the save, you are placed in the nearest open space. That is the effect of succeeding on the save.
If you fail the save, you are not moved and fall into the pit. That is the effect of failing the save.
You can't move outside of your turn anyway. The success on the saving throw is what moves you to the nearest open space. Its not a movement, its the effect of success on the throw.
So then does a creature with a fly speed that happens to be on the ground when the pit opens in the 10x10 room still fall into the pit?Depends on whether the creature is paralyzed or otherwise immobile, of course.
Fly speed without wings, but paralyzed. Like an air elemental. Does it fall?
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If one wizard on the material plane co-located with another wizard on the shadow plane and they both cast Create Pit on a third caster who was shadow walking between them could we all go outside and get some fresh air?
Never!
So then does a creature with a fly speed that happens to be on the ground when the pit opens in the 10x10 room still fall into the pit?Depends on whether the creature is paralyzed or otherwise immobile, of course.
But it can't jump to a safe space? Shouldn't if fall since it can't jump to safety?
No rules state an unconscious creature does not get to make Reflex saves against create pit. Ergo, a dead body still gets to make its Reflex saves, albeit at a -5 penalty.
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If one wizard on the material plane co-located with another wizard on the shadow plane and they both cast Create Pit on a third caster who was shadow walking between them could we all go outside and get some fresh air?Never!
You know i asked that as a joke, but now i am actually very curious as to which of the 4 planes involved they would end up on haha
EDIT: but seriously, what does "nearest open space" even mean in this context??
No rules state an unconscious creature does not get to make Reflex saves against create pit. Ergo, a dead body still gets to make its Reflex saves, albeit at a -5 penalty.
That same corpse has also left himself open to massive penalties to Fort saves vs. Death effects.
Pressing FAQ.
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Yeah, you technically may roll the reflex save. But if you're still in the pit, you fall regadless of that result as the save does not allow you to defy gravity.If you make the save, you are placed in the nearest open space. That is the effect of succeeding on the save.
That is a creative interpretation of the spell description, rather than what the spell description actually says.
The spell description equates making a save with moving to a safe square ("jump" means either an Acrobstics check without a given DC or under one's own willful but unspecified motive power). One cannot make a save without moving on the batlegrid. Commutatively, if one cannot move one cannot save. This is supported by the text explicitly spelling out how creatures pushed into the aoe do not even get to make a ceremonial d20 roll to try to save.
But no, I'm here to save you dorks from yourselves.
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act.
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space.
Hmmm, interesting, yeah, according to my expert reading it looks like no jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement. Doesn't say anything about Acrobatics in that quote. Yeah, it definitely applies to all jumps. Shadow jumps, Reflex save jumps, the works. Okay then.
Maximum Movement: None.
Can't jump!
*Flips table* Your move.
You know i asked that as a joke, but now i am actually very curious as to which of the 4 planes involved they would end up on hahaIf one wizard on the material plane co-located with another wizard on the shadow plane and they both cast Create Pit on a third caster who was shadow walking between them could we all go outside and get some fresh air?Never!
I feel like somehow the answer is probably buried in the fine print of that contract for existence that Asmodeus drew up... or the Nerdonomicon...
No rules state an unconscious creature does not get to make Reflex saves against create pit. Ergo, a dead body still gets to make its Reflex saves, albeit at a -5 penalty.
A dead body would be an unattended object.
Unattended objects do not get saving throws, unless magical.
No rules state an unconscious creature does not get to make Reflex saves against create pit. Ergo, a dead body still gets to make its Reflex saves, albeit at a -5 penalty.
Unconscious creature? Yes. Dead creature? Like an unattended object, no saving throw.
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A dead body is no longer a creature but an object (corpse).
What if it has greater magic weapon cast on it?
No rules state an unconscious creature does not get to make Reflex saves against create pit. Ergo, a dead body still gets to make its Reflex saves, albeit at a -5 penalty.A dead body is no longer a creature but an object (corpse).
So it does get a save, due to quantum vibrations! And, this being Pathfinder, Planck's length is 5 feet. Ergo, irrefutably, the corpse escapes the pit if it makes the save. Kind of an inverse necro-Casimir effect...
And before I get any smartasses claiming that bodies are improvised and therefore not real weapons...maybe. *Sniff* Maybe.
But there ain't no official classification for what constitutes a "projectile".
A dead body is no longer a creature but an object (corpse).What if it has greater magic weapon cast on it?
Make whatever the standard reflex save is for an enchanted corpse.
If successful, it moves to the nearest safe square.
Because ... magic.
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Spaces exist for Fine creatures and objects. The Plank Length is the spce of a Fine creature, not a Medium one.
Only if you believe in Fine creatures. I've yet to meet one. At best, most creatures are Pretty Okay, I Guess.
This in and of itself raises two questions:
Firstly, with a significant plank length, can quantum interactions take place, or do the observations remove them.
They do take place. Unfortunately, if the Planck Length is macro-significant, creatures such as ourselves (who are Pretty Okay, I Guess, but not Fine) won't be around to observe the effects. I haven't done the math in years, but I'm pretty sure it mucks up the whole effort of having a universe... which is alright, if you're not too attached to the universe.
Secondly, is the altered plank length the result of a different speed of light or a different Plank time.(is light even the fastest way of transmitting information?)
I think both result when two wizards, one on the Shadow Plane and one on the Material Plane simultaneously cast create pit on a third, shadow-walking wizard.
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Where can I find this Nerdonomicon? I'd like to know the Half-cell potentials for Mithril and Adamantine.
Oh no, I'm not telling. I tell you, you tell someone else, next thing you know Chteeothulhu wakes up and it's all running and screaming and horrible bright orange death.
The spell says you can move, it doesn't even specify how. You could simply fall off the targeted area.
You get reflex saves even when unconcious, so i don't see why being paralized would be any different.
Specific > General.
This is what happens when we pay more attention to the specific words than what's really going on in the (game) universe.
It doesn't say how the hole opens. Maybe it starts from the origin, and expands out. A successful save you get pushed on the outside to the border of the pit. A failed save you couldn't keep your balance and fell over into the pit.
Either way, if paralyzed, you are left on the sloped edge of the pit, and have to continue making saves each round to avoid falling in. (Since if you're paralyzed you're not moving out of those squares on your own)
I object to your phrasing! I pay tons of attention to what goes on in the universe! Way more than is at all reasonable!I have an interpretation where everyone wins. You get a save and you get moved to the nearest open space. It just so happens the space above the creature's position is usually open. It doesn't say nearest open space that has a floor and is safe to stand in. Just open space.
This is what happens when we pay more attention to the specific words than what's really going on in the (game) universe.
Maybe the specific words are what's going on in the universe... ontology equals epistemology.
Whoa.
I have an interpretation where everyone wins. You get a save and you get moved to the nearest open space. It just so happens the space above the creature's position is usually open. It doesn't say nearest open space that has a floor and is safe to stand in. Just open space.
This is what happens when we pay more attention to the specific words than what's really going on in the (game) universe.
That almost works, except the exact wording is: "Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space." There aren't many places less safe for a paralyzed creature than a random 5x5x5 cube in midair haha.
Fly speed without wings, but paralyzed. Like an air elemental. Does it fall?So then does a creature with a fly speed that happens to be on the ground when the pit opens in the 10x10 room still fall into the pit?Depends on whether the creature is paralyzed or otherwise immobile, of course.
Yes. (Ignoring the Reflex save issue.) There's no purely mental flight in Pathfinder.
That is....... surprising. Its literally made of air and can't not fly. (Only speed it has is a flight speed).
Does that mean the same for a paralyzed incorporeal creature? Does a paralyzed ghost just start falling straight to the center of the planet upon being paralyzed or having its dex reduced to 0?
Hah! Still, a ghost, with no physical body gets paralyzed/stunned/dazed and falls 5' below the ground due to the gravity that doesn't effect it?
Drat! Ruined again.
An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
So no, incorporeals do not fall when stunned and do not have mass.
Still weird that the air elemental would fall out of the sky when stunned.
So just to ask since we are still with requiring movement to make the save:
1. Does this Jump require any sort of check(other than the reflex save)?
2. Does it affect how much movement I get next turn?
3. Is it affected by how much I moved last turn?
4. Does it provoke an AoO?
5. Am I allowed to cast feather fall if i fail?
6. Can I just start flying If i fail/have no safe space to jump to?
7: IF the floor is greased before Create pit is cast do I need to make an Acrobatics check to successfully make my reflex save as well?
8: just how far away can I jump to reach a nearest safe space?
9: Since I am jumping can I apply bonuses to Acrobatics to my Reflex save? Especially those that call out jumping specifically?
Technically, the swing goes right through them. Even if its a magic weapon, it passes straight through and happens to magically do some damage on the way. The only exception is ghost touch, which also exists ethereally, and I'm guessing material plane physics don't quite work the same there.
If one wizard on the material plane co-located with another wizard on the shadow plane and they both cast Create Pit on a third caster who was shadow walking between them could we all go outside and get some fresh air?
It's times like this I wish some comp sci/physics major would make a physics model based on Pathfinder rules. So when a question like this occurs, all you have to do is open the model, set up the situation, and see what happens.
It's times like this I wish some comp sci/physics major would make a physics model based on Pathfinder rules. So when a question like this occurs, all you have to do is open the model, set up the situation, and see what happens.
"...and that's how we got Skynet," explained the old man, as we huddled around him in the blasted subway tunnel that was humanity's last bastion.
It's times like this I wish some comp sci/physics major would make a physics model based on Pathfinder rules. So when a question like this occurs, all you have to do is open the model, set up the situation, and see what happens."...and that's how we got Skynet," explained the old man, as we huddled around him in the blasted subway tunnel that was humanity's last bastion.
This is why Skynet hates humanity.
We asked it to solve the inchoherant set of paradoxes that make up Pathfinder physics.
If one wizard on the material plane co-located with another wizard on the shadow plane and they both cast Create Pit on a third caster who was shadow walking between them could we all go outside and get some fresh air?It's times like this I wish some comp sci/physics major would make a physics model based on Pathfinder rules. So when a question like this occurs, all you have to do is open the model, set up the situation, and see what happens.
Well, i am/was a compsci major. I know very little about physics but im pretty sure everything about this situation is against da rules.
Official Rules Response
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Reflex Saves: If I’m paralyzed, held, dying, or otherwise completely immobilized or insensate, can I still attempt a Reflex save?
Yes, you can still attempt a Reflex save, but since your Dexterity is set to 0, you’ll have to replace your Dexterity bonus with a –5 penalty, so you’re not likely to succeed. If you do succeed, it might be due to the power of your <i>cloak of resistance</i>, a good angle for cover, or even luck. Either way, follow the rules of the spell for a successful Reflex save, even if this would change your space, like <i>create pit</i>. However, you lose evasion in these circumstances. If you are under the influence of a rare effect that causes you to be immobilized or insensate and allows ongoing Reflex saves to escape the effect, as an exception to the rule, you can use your full Dexterity bonus (instead of a –5 penalty) for the purpose of attempting those ongoing saves only, since your full Dexterity is at work within the confines of the spell, trying to break free.
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Eat that science!
While this is the ruling I expected, I'm a little disappointed that the FAQ didn't even attempt to reconcile how a paralyzed creature is able to jump 5 feet or more.
"the power of your cloak of resistance, a good angle for cover, or even luck" doesn't seem to make sense in that context.
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The GM can provide the flavor.
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I'm not surprised at the ruling, even though I argued the other way. Handwavium or "it was just magic..." is pretty much the only way to explain how an immobile victim somehow moved across thin air and landed safely upon a downward sloped surface implicitly devoid of anything to snag and hang upon.
I'm actually intrigued by the decision to remove evasion. And I see the next rules dispute in what that RAW means.
"However, you lose evasion in these circumstances."
Which are "these" circumstances? When you make a save and magically move, or any/all circumstances where you make a save with 0 dex?
Let the arguments begin anew.