Dragon Disciple Revisited


Advice


I know there was a guide about the Dragon Disciple around somewhere. However, there's a lot of new material. Any updates on the best way to go into and use the DD since all that?


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I know there was a guide about the Dragon Disciple around somewhere. However, there's a lot of new material. Any updates on the best way to go into and use the DD since all that?

Several ways to do so, really.

Could be a Bard, and pick it up by 5th level and have increased combat abilities (though you sacrifice Bardic Performance progression to do so).

Could be a Bloodrager, and dip 4 levels into it for increased Strength, a Bite Attack, and so on; great for working with Natural Weapons, since the Dragon Bite you gain is always 1.5x Strength. You'd also gain a bloodline feat faster than normal, too.

Could be a Cross-Blooded Sorcerer who plans to melee, and beef yourself up that way.

Blood Arcanists would qualify for it too, since they can full-on choose a Bloodline as Sorcerers.

But to be honest, I dislike the design of DD. It's a 3/4 BAB class with D12 Hit Dice and a bunch of random features thrown into a ball; really, only part of it appeals to any and every class, because it's got a mix-mash of all the good (D12 Hit Dice, Strength Boosts, Feats), and the bad (3/4 BAB, reduced Spellcasting progression, miss out on original class features, and so on).


Bloodrager. Always bloodrager.

The Exchange

Or Scald!!

Does Arcanist count as spontaneous spellcaster for DD?


Bearserk wrote:

Or Scald!!

Does Arcanist count as spontaneous spellcaster for DD?

They cast spells spontaneously, but only from spells that they have prepared. So technically, yes.

Grand Lodge

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I recently did a DD with bloodrager.

I did crossblooded dragon/Aberrant. Went the route if natural attacks. Used riving strike + C. Smash + Cruel AoMF. -6 to saves and ended the little combo with Ghoulish Claws via eldritch heritage. Most things ended up with paralysis and a Coup the following round.

The reach bard does very well as a DD as well.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

But to be honest, I dislike the design of DD. It's a 3/4 BAB class with D12 Hit Dice and a bunch of random features thrown into a ball; really, only part of it appeals to any and every class, because it's got a mix-mash of all the good (D12 Hit Dice, Strength Boosts, Feats), and the bad (3/4 BAB, reduced Spellcasting progression, miss out on original class features, and so on).

I agree with this. I love the idea of Dragon Disciple but it's in a bit of a weird design space. Having it give you everything you'd want out of it would likely make it overpowered though.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Bearserk wrote:

Or Scald!!

Does Arcanist count as spontaneous spellcaster for DD?

They cast spells spontaneously, but only from spells that they have prepared. So technically, yes.

RAW, no:

Core Rulebook wrote:
Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.

(emphasis mine)

The dragon disciple requirement isn't casting spontaneously, but "without preparation." Since an arcanist prepares spells, they do not qualify for dragon disciple.

However, a ley line guardian witch no longer prepares spells and would qualify.


The Pale King wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

But to be honest, I dislike the design of DD. It's a 3/4 BAB class with D12 Hit Dice and a bunch of random features thrown into a ball; really, only part of it appeals to any and every class, because it's got a mix-mash of all the good (D12 Hit Dice, Strength Boosts, Feats), and the bad (3/4 BAB, reduced Spellcasting progression, miss out on original class features, and so on).

I agree with this. I love the idea of Dragon Disciple but it's in a bit of a weird design space. Having it give you everything you'd want out of it would likely make it overpowered though.

I don't think it should give everything you want, I just feel it should be more niche-based towards a specific concept instead of trying to cover all the bases that players may want from it.

For example, I find that Dragon Disciple providing more offensive power in the form of Breath Weapons, Flight, Bite Attack, Strength increases, and so on, should make it a full BAB class. I mean come on, you're basically trying to be a Dragon; Dragons, while they can cast spells, they aren't particularly savvy about it until way later in their lifetimes, where they can cast spells as high as 6th level. This would result in a more reduced spell progression (maybe providing a spell casting level increase every other level), but for those who can cast spells, it's still a welcome onset, especially for the full BAB 4/9 spellcasters (who unfortunately mostly aren't Arcane-based) who really only use their spellcasting for utility and buffing, or extremely-niche offensive power.

@ Dragonchess Player: Nice catch, I just thought it was casting spells spontaneously, but that does discount the aspect of Blood Arcanists.

Other class archetypes, like the Eldritch Scion Magus class, which ditch a spellbook entirely for pure spontaneous spellcasting, could certainly still qualify, though.


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well. first of, with Scaled Disciple feat, you can go oracle > DD for a VERY nice concept.
think, dark tapestry? battle ? as a DD STR based. not bad...

i like bard DD, with STR boost and eldrich heritage one can get to good to hit and damage.

skald is very nice as well.

Barbarian \sorcerer with natural weapons is nice.


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My entry was Divine Hunter Paladin 2, Archeologist Bard 1, Id Rager Bloodrager 1, Lore Warden Fighter 1. Strong saving throws, strong self buffs from rage, smite, and archaeologists luck, reasonable skill points to cover that pesky know:arcane 5 along with the basics, spontaneous casting from bard for entry. Also managed to snag a couple of nice bonus feats, opening up bow use in a pinch. Oh, and only 1 lost BAB.

That fighter level could probably be something else.


Well, if you're going a natural attack build, then BAB doesn't really matter - you're gaining a STR bonus that pretty much compensates for the BAB loss.

On the other hand, if you're not planning on always using a natural attack routine, it certainly is a hit.


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Gulthor wrote:

Well, if you're going a natural attack build, then BAB doesn't really matter - you're gaining a STR bonus that pretty much compensates for the BAB loss.

On the other hand, if you're not planning on always using a natural attack routine, it certainly is a hit.

Yes and no. It's ultimately +2 to hit, but it's also entry into feats and the like that may have BAB prerequisites.

I will say, however, that my DD is using a polearm for most fighting, switching to a bow if tactically needed. BAB helps all of that. I generally expect to use my claws and teeth only if grappled.

And now I kind of want to build a natural weapons DD that dips Scaled Fist Unchained Monk in that Lore Warden Fighter spot to gain Dragon Style and monk stuff.


So I was thinking about this very question and I was interested in the idea of the magical child vigilante as a base for the DD.

if you stick with the class until 6th level you get 3/4 bab, 2 good saves 4 SP per level a familiar 3 social talents and 2 vigilante talents before hitting DD levels. In addition you get access to the best 6 level spell list for a character who is not a primary spell caster, the summoner spell list has great buff spells, access to healing and some fantastic early entry items that give you strong options with utility and battlefield control.

Also since you're only using a 6 level spell list you can get by with being less MAD.

You're an extremely self sufficient character, you can buff yourself and wade in to combat, heal your self after and you've got skills/familiar/social talents for non combat utility.


Not much has changed really as there still isn't a best way to go about the DD, just lots of good ones. The scarred witch doctor tank build has been screwed over though.

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