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Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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when combining grit and panache you get twice as much panache?

For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.)


That's correct. However, it would also count as 'grit'.


it would also count as panache and as luck


but thank you!


Why have 3 different names for the same mechanic all stacking together? That sort of thing is what confuses me about these newer classes that focus on ultimate customization.


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To differentiate the three classes that use similar mechanics. Thus a swashbuckler can't take twirling guns and a gunslinger can't take confounding tumble.


Yeah OK. It's still confusing to allow it to stack then. Maybe this is comparing apples to lawnmowers but to me allowing those to stack would be like allowing caster level to stack with a multi-class wizard/druid.

Anyway I've derailed enough. Sorry.


Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa.

A luck user does not count as a grit or panache user to satisfy feat prerequisites.

The Exchange

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It's grucknache!


Johnnycat93 wrote:
To differentiate the three classes that use similar mechanics. Thus a swashbuckler can't take twirling guns and a gunslinger can't take confounding tumble.

Actually a swashbuckler can take twirling guns and gunslingers can take confounding tumble.


with special feats or just natively?


It's because all three are used to gain access to deeds, which is why they stack.

Someone who gets panache, luck, and a level in Mysterious Stranger gunslinger, gets 3x their charisma.


Don't remind mme why I HATE those mechanics, or why, were I to DM, those cleasses would not be allowed at my table.


Really? They're all great, though. I could get not allowing gunslingers, since guns, but no swashbucklers or investigators?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Klorox wrote:
with special feats or just natively?

i'm pretty sure they all count as grit for prerequisites or some such...


I hate panache and grits. Inspiration is more like a monk's ki pool, hence allowable... I'm not particularly fond of investigators, but that may be due to not knowing them well enough, but I see no reason to ban them... if "luck" is a grit like mechanic applying to an investigator archetype (I assume archetype as a quick perusal of the investigator main class did not show it), then that archetype would get disallowed.


Klorox wrote:
I hate panache and grits. Inspiration is more like a monk's ki pool, hence allowable... I'm not particularly fond of investigators, but that may be due to not knowing them well enough, but I see no reason to ban them... if "luck" is a grit like mechanic applying to an investigator archetype (you meant the sleuth, right?), then that archetype would get disallowed.


Klorox wrote:
Don't remind mme why I HATE those mechanics, or why, were I to DM, those cleasses would not be allowed at my table.

Whats wrong with panache?

Its far less complicated than what the casters are having to track.


panache is just like grits, and grits... let's say I have bad memories of a gunslinger who was always out of them and worse than useless... the pool is ridiculously small and needs ridiculous conditions to refill, and you have to USE the damn points to be any use, so you stop being useful in like a hurry as soon as you have exhausted your measly allowance. and getting any more points relies too much on extraordinary luck.


Tyinyk wrote:

It's because all three are used to gain access to deeds, which is why they stack.

Someone who gets panache, luck, and a level in Mysterious Stranger gunslinger, gets 3x their charisma.

Yeah, no. If you can't get twice your Charisma Bonus to Saves in accordance to the FAQ, then you can't get thrice your Charisma Bonus to your Panache/Grit/Luck pool, especially when the rules say that they count as the same resource for all intents and purposes.

@ Klorox: I disagree on Gunslingers being useless. I just started a 1st level Gunslinger (Bolt Ace, to be precise), and quite honestly, you can still be very useful without spending Grit, especially if you're optimized enough. I was hitting enemies quite a bit (even if my damage was lackluster at points), and I never had to use my Grit ability to target Touch AC for basic fights.

Really, Grit serves as a supplement to deal with foes that have certain strengths, or as a cureall against Boss Fights.

There's also the Extra Grit feat, and magic items that supplement your Grit usage (by granting, reducing, or increasing Grit); a Grit user not taking those items, especially if he feels they're absolutely necessary, is a foolish player.


I wouldn't know about magic items, we were playing at low level, and stopped before getting the kind of budget you need to commission major magic items (yes, that campaign had fairly little in ways of a magic item market beyond potions and scrolls, you wanted something you hadn't looted off the foe, you had to commission it. It was kind of a drag, even if able crafters were not that hard to find... then again, it was better to commission a wand than to buy it at the flea market, at least you knew it had 50 charges).


Klorox wrote:
panache is just like grits, and grits... let's say I have bad memories of a gunslinger who was always out of them and worse than useless... the pool is ridiculously small and needs ridiculous conditions to refill, and you have to USE the damn points to be any use, so you stop being useful in like a hurry as soon as you have exhausted your measly allowance. and getting any more points relies too much on extraordinary luck.

All you need to do is kill a worthy foe to get grit back, and considering that a normal gunslinger hits against touch, that's not hard to do at all. It's not hard to be useful without using grit for the same reason.

Swashbucklers are all-around good without spending panache because they get a lot of feats based around their fighting style for free. With panache they're great.

I'd say the only deed-related class that has a hard time being useful is the sleuth, and that's just because it makes them more MAD.


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Klorox wrote:
I wouldn't know about magic items, we were playing at low level, and stopped before getting the kind of budget you need to commission major magic items (yes, that campaign had fairly little in ways of a magic item market beyond potions and scrolls, you wanted something you hadn't looted off the foe, you had to commission it. It was kind of a drag, even if able crafters were not that hard to find... then again, it was better to commission a wand than to buy it at the flea market, at least you knew it had 50 charges).

The game assumes the want is fully charged if you buy it at full price. If the GM has NPC's trying to get over on the players, that is a GM/campaign issue.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
(Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.)

This was actually fixed in the second printing of the Advanced Class Guide, but they forgot to list the change in the errata. The new text reads

Advanced Class Guide wrote:
(Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonuses in their pools.)

The new text is in Paizo's prd and the book itself, but d20pfsrd still has the old version.


^By any chance, do you happen to know the link to the Errata?

Dark Archive

UnArcaneElection wrote:
^By any chance, do you happen to know the link to the Errata?

The errata is linked to on the product page.

Now looking at it again I see that the change is actually listed. The errata misses the change in the sentence from singular to plural, but the most important part, the negation, is covered.

Shadow Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Interestingly I though there was a stand that no stat could be added more than once. I can't find it so I could be mis-remembering.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tyinyk wrote:
All you need to do is kill a worthy foe to get grit back, and considering that a normal gunslinger hits against touch, that's not hard to do at all. It's not hard to be useful without using grit for the same reason.

You don't even need to kill them.

Gunslinger wrote:
When the gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point.

You can leave the poor bastard at 0HP and staggered if it turns out that way. You still recover a point of grit.


if you get them staggered you can shoot them again and get 2 off of one enemy!

Or you do the super "cheater" thing and buy some animals that are half your HD so they count and then fight them whenever you're wanting to restore your panache.

Shadow Lodge

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And then I smack you with the CRB for being immature.


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Funny idea for an evil gunslinger though. He needs to make regular animal sacrifices to maintain his talent.


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Sir, why do you have a herd of bison?
well I am a lv 10 swashbuckler. Fighting a bison in one on one combat is exhilarating and gives me back my flair for fighting.
Plus they are good for softening up a village and causing some panic by having them stampede though the village square.


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Chess Pwn wrote:

Sir, why do you have a herd of bison?

well I am a lv 10 swashbuckler. Fighting a bison in one on one combat is exhilarating and gives me back my flair for fighting.
Plus they are good for softening up a village and causing some panic by having them stampede though the village square.

He could call himself... THE MATADOR!


Klorox wrote:
panache is just like grits, and grits... let's say I have bad memories of a gunslinger who was always out of them and worse than useless... the pool is ridiculously small and needs ridiculous conditions to refill, and you have to USE the damn points to be any use, so you stop being useful in like a hurry as soon as you have exhausted your measly allowance. and getting any more points relies too much on extraordinary luck.

Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game. If your gunslinger was often worse than useless, it was played poorly.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
johnlocke90 wrote:
Klorox wrote:
panache is just like grits, and grits... let's say I have bad memories of a gunslinger who was always out of them and worse than useless... the pool is ridiculously small and needs ridiculous conditions to refill, and you have to USE the damn points to be any use, so you stop being useful in like a hurry as soon as you have exhausted your measly allowance. and getting any more points relies too much on extraordinary luck.
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game. If your gunslinger was often worse than useless, it was played poorly.

<snort>

Unless you get to play with advanced firearms (the default is early firearms), the range where the gunslinger can target touch AC is hilariously short (20 ft for a pistol, 40 ft for a musket). Outside of spitting distance, a gunslinger becomes an archer that requires more feats and more expensive ammo; plus, they can't hit distant targets as well (due to range penalties).

Your comment is like saying "a rogue is OP because of Sneak Attack." If anything, Sneak Attack is easier to trigger than a gunslinger being able to target touch AC.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Your comment is like saying "a rogue is OP because of Sneak Attack." If anything, Sneak Attack is easier to trigger than a gunslinger being able to target touch AC.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've seen Sneak Attack shut down more often than Gunslinger touch range.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Klorox wrote:
panache is just like grits, and grits... let's say I have bad memories of a gunslinger who was always out of them and worse than useless... the pool is ridiculously small and needs ridiculous conditions to refill, and you have to USE the damn points to be any use, so you stop being useful in like a hurry as soon as you have exhausted your measly allowance. and getting any more points relies too much on extraordinary luck.
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game. If your gunslinger was often worse than useless, it was played poorly.

I'd honestly consider Gunslinger for a spot on the top-5 worst classes. There are times you'd be better off just paying people off instead of shooting them with how damn expensive being a Gunslinger is.


^I could have sworn to having seen part of a Saturday Night Live(?) skit about putting a tax on bullets, and this reminded me of it, but I couldn't find it on YouTube . . . .

Klorox wrote:
I hate panache and grits. Inspiration is more like a monk's ki pool, hence allowable... I'm not particularly fond of investigators, but that may be due to not knowing them well enough, but I see no reason to ban them... if "luck" is a grit like mechanic applying to an investigator archetype (I assume archetype as a quick perusal of the investigator main class did not show it), then that archetype would get disallowed.

Now I have this vision of a Gunslinger that discovers a feat to recharge by eating nixtamalized cornmeal . . . .


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Johnnycat93 wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:


Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game. If your gunslinger was often worse than useless, it was played poorly.
I'd honestly consider Gunslinger for a spot on the top-5 worst classes. There are times you'd be better off just paying people off instead of shooting them with how damn expensive being a Gunslinger is.

100 bullets are only 10 gold, that hardly seems cost-prohibitive. The price of a good gun is about the same as any other martial's +1 weapon, but you're attacking touch AC. All pretty reasonable.

I'm going to second that if you haven't seen a gunslinger be terribly effective, you've just seen poorly-built gunslingers. We have one in our Iron Gods campaign, and she easily tops the DPR of the group, and that's competing with a grenadier alchemist and a goliath druid. (And no, she's not even using any of the technological weapons, because a pistol is better for her build.)


Gunslinger's aren't really meant to be archers who shoot guys from miles away. They're meant to be close-range fighters who hit all the time.

I've seen both ends of the spectrum with people's opinions on guns and gunslingers. They're both considered OP and UP, depending on who you ask.

Dark Archive

At level 1 with a new character, gunslingers are kind of expensive. It takes a good amount of your gold to get the bullets and black powder to fire your gun a dozen or two times at character creation. And the reload times can be a pain, I'd imagine. Not actually played any of my gunslinger builds yet. That said, they can replace ammunition somewhat fairly easily.

An archer can get buy spending 1 gold per 20 arrows. A gun user on the other hand spends 10 gold per black powder charge, which is needed to fire the weapon. Plus each bullet costs 1 gold.

Once you get a gunsmiths kit it's a lot cheaper to be a gunslinger, but still more expensive then being an archer. 1 gold 1 silver per shot fired is kind of pricey, but not as bad as 11 gold per shot fired.

1 gold for 20 arrows, or 22 gold for 20 bullets plus black powder to fire them... I can see why some might consider it sub par. I just did a quick gunslinger build and after armor, 20 rounds worth of ammunition/black powder, 2 powder horns to store said black powder, and a gunsmith kit... down to 7 gold. That's not enough to buy a kineticists kit, which is the cheapest class kit I have access to for PFS. In fact it's enough to get a backpack, waterskin, and 7 days of trail rations with 5 silver left over.

Kind of a tight budget at character creation, hope it's not too combat heavy of a first adventure.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game.

No, no it is not. It is somewhat widely hated both for thematic reasons and because it is slightly disruptive with Touch Attacks when Pathfinder (and 3E before it) artificially inflate monster AC with ridiculous Natural Armor.

Possibly broken in a systemic way, but hardly overpowered when you look at them next to 4 classes from the CRB.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:

At level 1 with a new character, gunslingers are kind of expensive. It takes a good amount of your gold to get the bullets and black powder to fire your gun a dozen or two times at character creation. And the reload times can be a pain, I'd imagine. Not actually played any of my gunslinger builds yet. That said, they can replace ammunition somewhat fairly easily.

An archer can get buy spending 1 gold per 20 arrows. A gun user on the other hand spends 10 gold per black powder charge, which is needed to fire the weapon. Plus each bullet costs 1 gold.

Once you get a gunsmiths kit it's a lot cheaper to be a gunslinger, but still more expensive then being an archer. 1 gold 1 silver per shot fired is kind of pricey, but not as bad as 11 gold per shot fired.

1 gold for 20 arrows, or 22 gold for 20 bullets plus black powder to fire them... I can see why some might consider it sub par. I just did a quick gunslinger build and after armor, 20 rounds worth of ammunition/black powder, 2 powder horns to store said black powder, and a gunsmith kit... down to 7 gold. That's not enough to buy a kineticists kit, which is the cheapest class kit I have access to for PFS. In fact it's enough to get a backpack, waterskin, and 7 days of trail rations with 5 silver left over.

Kind of a tight budget at character creation, hope it's not too combat heavy of a first adventure.

That might be one of the times it's worth getting the Rich Parents feat, so you can afford to do all the shooting you need for quite a while.

Sovereign Court

kyrt-ryder wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game.

No, no it is not. It is somewhat widely hated both for thematic reasons and because it is slightly disruptive with Touch Attacks when Pathfinder (and 3E before it) artificially inflate monster AC with ridiculous Natural Armor.

Possibly broken in a systemic way, but hardly overpowered when you look at them next to 4 classes from the CRB.

That's starting to get into the logic of "martials can't be broken because casters exist".

Now - while I totally believe in caster/martial disparity and have in the past proposed several houserules to somewhat address it, martials should also be balanced against each-other.

(Admittedly - I don't think that gunslingers are OP, though among the top 1/4 of martials, but your logic wasn't sound.)

Sovereign Court

Kahel Stormbender wrote:


Kind of a tight budget at character creation, hope it's not too combat heavy of a first adventure.

I've seen a gunslinger who just used a bow against all but bosses until level 3ish in order to save $.


Johnnycat93 wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Klorox wrote:
panache is just like grits, and grits... let's say I have bad memories of a gunslinger who was always out of them and worse than useless... the pool is ridiculously small and needs ridiculous conditions to refill, and you have to USE the damn points to be any use, so you stop being useful in like a hurry as soon as you have exhausted your measly allowance. and getting any more points relies too much on extraordinary luck.
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game. If your gunslinger was often worse than useless, it was played poorly.
I'd honestly consider Gunslinger for a spot on the top-5 worst classes. There are times you'd be better off just paying people off instead of shooting them with how damn expensive being a Gunslinger is.

How poor does your GM keep players? That should be a trivial cost by level 3.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Klorox wrote:
panache is just like grits, and grits... let's say I have bad memories of a gunslinger who was always out of them and worse than useless... the pool is ridiculously small and needs ridiculous conditions to refill, and you have to USE the damn points to be any use, so you stop being useful in like a hurry as soon as you have exhausted your measly allowance. and getting any more points relies too much on extraordinary luck.
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game. If your gunslinger was often worse than useless, it was played poorly.

<snort>

Unless you get to play with advanced firearms (the default is early firearms), the range where the gunslinger can target touch AC is hilariously short (20 ft for a pistol, 40 ft for a musket). Outside of spitting distance, a gunslinger becomes an archer that requires more feats and more expensive ammo; plus, they can't hit distant targets as well (due to range penalties).

Your comment is like saying "a rogue is OP because of Sneak Attack." If anything, Sneak Attack is easier to trigger than a gunslinger being able to target touch AC.

Gunslinger should have enough AC to fight close range without issue. They max dex, get free bonus AC and can wear light armor.

Gunslingers are OP because they work like archers(who are already pretty damn strong) who also get dex to damage and can explode big enemies.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game.

No, no it is not. It is somewhat widely hated both for thematic reasons and because it is slightly disruptive with Touch Attacks when Pathfinder (and 3E before it) artificially inflate monster AC with ridiculous Natural Armor.

Possibly broken in a systemic way, but hardly overpowered when you look at them next to 4 classes from the CRB.

If you have to rework most of your fights past a certain level to deal with a specific class, that class is OP.

Dark Archive

johnlocke90 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game.

No, no it is not. It is somewhat widely hated both for thematic reasons and because it is slightly disruptive with Touch Attacks when Pathfinder (and 3E before it) artificially inflate monster AC with ridiculous Natural Armor.

Possibly broken in a systemic way, but hardly overpowered when you look at them next to 4 classes from the CRB.

If you have to rework most of your fights past a certain level to deal with a specific class, that class is OP.

By that logic, I'd assume you only let people play level 1 commoners?

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