Do dragons maintain their stats and abilities when using alternate form?


Rules Questions


Greetings.

I have a question in regards to a dragons ability to alternate its form. I've looked up the rules for polymorph and alter self and I'm unclear as to if the dragon maintains or loses its original stats or abilities or mabye lose only some like the ability to fly?

How does this work exactly. I.e would a dragon in human form have human physical stats but maintain its normal mental? Can it still water breathe etc?


I would imagine that it would maintain its stats except that :- It would lose it's natural attacks and any abilitys based on it's "form" (flight for example), and have it's stats modified by how much it's size decreased, however if there is anything else i've missed or am incorrect on I'm sure some-one will be along presently too correct me.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the most part, dragons do retain their stats in altered form, save for size modifications and such. For most purposes you're perfectly fine in using the standard scores unaltered to save time, as a dragon isn't really going to spend much time in melee in anything but it's true form, especially against any real threat.


Polymorph Subschool, CRB p211 wrote:

A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

and further down

Polymorph Subschool, CRB p212 wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

Nowhere, however does it say that you take on the stats of a standard creature of the form you assume, unlike 3.5 and earlier versions. In fact, almost all Polymorph effects include ability score adjustments which cover any change the character might experience to these stats.

The dragon's Alternate Form or Shapechange ability is still a Polymorph effect and in most cases references that spell or another spell in that subschool of Transmutation. Therefore, I would use those rules to adjudicate this.

But don't forget to include the last paragraph from the same entry and the accompanying table concerning polymorph effects on non-standard sized creatures.

Polymorph Subschool, CRB p212 wrote:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, f irst adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

Hopefully this helps.


Bah, disregard my original post.

Master_Crafter's post cleared up some misinformation I was giving.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A lot of rules aren't designed with two way transparency, i.e. monsters don't always interact with magic the way standard PC character races do. (i.e. when the alter self spell was designed, no one took into mind the idea of giants or dragons using it.)

Since I see no point in going through needless complication when I run dragons who disguise themselves in Human form, I don't change their base stat scores at all. They're still going to be far less effective in combat since they're reduced to using human scaled weapons. (in the name of simplicity I give them all martial proficiencies as well, martial and exotic for one of the greater breeds like the golds and reds)

It's definitely more than possible to take the fun out of this game by trying to go overboard on rules mechanics. Your head will simply explode if you go crazy with simulation

Silver Crusade

That is why most dragons who go parading around in alternate forms know dimension door.

Uh Oh trouble.

DD away!

Then they find a phone booth and change into Dragon form form form form.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
karkon wrote:


Then they find a phone booth and change into Dragon form form form form.

That can be a problem these days as Superman found out when returning to Earth from a long absence in the movies. Phone booths are about as extinct as British police boxes.

Silver Crusade

I meant special invisible fairy phone booths that only dragons can see. Though why they are called fairy phone booths I don't know. I mean fairies can't even see them. Most of them are too small to even use them. Well, they do change size to accommodate the larger dragon size so maybe they shrink too? hmmm.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

*Head 'splodes* ending participation in thread.


Karkon, I think the phone booths are actually operated by a network of faerie dragons. Once you hit two minutes in the booth, you have to keep plunking in 50 silver, in order to get another shot of eupohria gas in the booth.

Sadly, a number of dragons have found themselves advancing in age category, simply waiting for the current occupant to exit the booth.

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