Any way to make a viable dual wielding Magus?


Advice


I know the default Magus assumes an open hand for its main class features, but is there a way to play a Magus or similarily combat heavy caster as a dual wielder? Through feats/traits/race/archetypes? Maybe another class can just accomplish this feel somehow?


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There is the archetype that creates a force dagger, or you can go staff magus and use a quarterstaff as a double weapon.

Shadow Lodge

Also minblade magus archetype in occult adventures is specifically built for just that.

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The Pale King wrote:
Maybe another class can just accomplish this feel somehow?

Well, what are you wanting out of the character? Dual-wielding, obviously; what else? Shall I presume from your idea of a magus as a starting point that you want magic in some capacity? If so, what role does magic play in the concept (buffs, out-of-combat utility, etc)? What else is central to the concept?


stormcrow27 wrote:
There is the archetype that creates a force dagger, or you can go staff magus and use a quarterstaff as a double weapon.

Not on the latter, the reason the staff magus works, is because he gets tricks that let him use the staff as a one-handed weapon.


Warpriest gets fervor which is fun, and can coumt their level as BAB forr bonus feats letting you qualify quicker. People normally use Sacred Weapon to wield dual kukris since damage isn't a problem. I think there's a feat for TWF Warpriests specifically.

Edit: The feat is dual enhancement.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
There is the archetype that creates a force dagger, or you can go staff magus and use a quarterstaff as a double weapon.
Not on the latter, the reason the staff magus works, is because he gets tricks that let him use the staff as a one-handed weapon.

They can still use the quarterstaff as a double weapon on turns when they aren't using spell combat.


Mindblade


default TWF and casting in combat is hard. You either need to use a double weapon Or have one of your weapons be an open hand. There are classes and abilities that bypass this, but this is the basic case.

bloodrager, medium, occultist, the child of aca... and aba... fighter, arcane fighter bard, Natural attack focused sorcerer kinda works, warpriest, psychic investigator, etc. and a magus could potentially work for what you're wanting.

So it kinda depends on what you see your character doing with their magic.


Johnnycat93 wrote:
Mindblade

Elaborating on this a bit. Mindblades get class features that explicitly allow them to use their full two-weapon attack routine and use spell combat at the same time.

Plus they can materialize effective weapons out of thin air. Which is my personal favorite part of the archetype.


The Golux wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
There is the archetype that creates a force dagger, or you can go staff magus and use a quarterstaff as a double weapon.
Not on the latter, the reason the staff magus works, is because he gets tricks that let him use the staff as a one-handed weapon.
They can still use the quarterstaff as a double weapon on turns when they aren't using spell combat.

I'm pretty sure that the OP is one of many who start threads like this because they want to have their cake with two weapon fighting... and eat spell combat too.

What they may not realize is that Paizo did it's best to all but close the doors on the class getting two forms of simultaneous TWF at the same time.


If your willing to give up a BAB (a hard price) you could take a 1 level dip into witch for the prehensile hair hex. it functions in all ways as standard hand, so... casting with your hair?


Ten'shun the Tengu wrote:
If your willing to give up a BAB (a hard price) you could take a 1 level dip into witch for the prehensile hair hex. it functions in all ways as standard hand, so... casting with your hair?

No need for that. Hexcrafter Magus characters can pick that hex up in place of an Magus Arcana. Archetype happens to stack with Staff Magus, too. Though, you could just take the Quarterstaff Master feat as a Magus without going with the archetype.

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Well, the usual goal of dual wielding is getting more attacks per round, and the Magus already does that (as spell combat lets him attack twice with his regular weapon). Generally speaking, a Magus wants to use spell combat as much as possible.

If you want more attacks, the easiest way is getting natural attacks (from race, or a trait, or polymorph spells) with the Natural Spell Combat arcana; or getting extra limbs from e.g. an alchemist dip. The downside of the witch's prehensile hair hex is that it takes a standard action to activate.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The Golux wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
There is the archetype that creates a force dagger, or you can go staff magus and use a quarterstaff as a double weapon.
Not on the latter, the reason the staff magus works, is because he gets tricks that let him use the staff as a one-handed weapon.
They can still use the quarterstaff as a double weapon on turns when they aren't using spell combat.

I'm pretty sure that the OP is one of many who start threads like this because they want to have their cake with two weapon fighting... and eat spell combat too.

What they may not realize is that Paizo did it's best to all but close the doors on the class getting two forms of simultaneous TWF at the same time.

+1

The problem is that Magi are already dual-wielding: sword (or whatever) in 1 hand, magic spell in the other.

Magus, Spell Combat wrote:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.

That being said, the OP is getting some interesting advice for workarounds.

The classic thing to do is to take Whirlwind Attack and spam Shocking Grasp to charge your Rapier. You could use a 2 handed weapon instead, but the action economy pretty much prohibits using a 2 handed weapon and making an off-hand attack, even if that off-hand attack is a Spell. So people like rapiers because of the Threat Range. I prefer to just go for the Damage, instinctively--be a Dwarf Magus and use a Dwarven War Axe or a Tengu Magus and use a Bastard Sword, taking a level in Ranger and using a Wand of Lead Blades to up the Damage to 2d6, making Wand Wielder my first Magus Arcana.

But maybe since Magus Spells are where the real damage is coming from, it's better to go for the Threat Range. I haven't worked out the math.


Kurald Galain wrote:
If you want more attacks... or getting extra limbs from e.g. an alchemist dip.

Alchemists' Vestigial Arms and Tentacles don't grant extra attacks. There are some shinnanegins the OP might be willing to perpetrate that can get around that or sort of get around that.

You might, for instance, wield a Greatsword in 2 hands and use a Shield in the other, and still get the AC bonus for the Shield. I think a lot of GMs wouldn't let that fly even though I'm pretty sure that's technically legal. The OP shouldn't do exactly that with a Magus anyway, though since a Shield would interfere with spellcasting.

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Alchemists' Vestigial Arms and Tentacles don't grant extra attacks.

No, but they give you an extra free hand, which is the requirement for spell combat.


DeathlessOne wrote:
Ten'shun the Tengu wrote:
If your willing to give up a BAB (a hard price) you could take a 1 level dip into witch for the prehensile hair hex. it functions in all ways as standard hand, so... casting with your hair?
No need for that. Hexcrafter Magus characters can pick that hex up in place of an Magus Arcana. Archetype happens to stack with Staff Magus, too. Though, you could just take the Quarterstaff Master feat as a Magus without going with the archetype.

I guess you could multiclass between White Haired Witch and Hexcrafter Magus. White Hair is a primary Natural Attack and so is better than Prehensile Hair which is a Secondary Natural Attack.

I guess you could do something like be a natural-attacking Magus. Be a Tengu with Bite and Claws, take that level in White Haired Witch, and get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord while you are at it. Now you have 5 attacks/round. Then use Spell Combat to buff yourself. While you're at it, carry a longbow along with you: you don't even need to put the bow down to Full Attack with your natural weapons.

In some ways that wouldn't be so great. Most Magi like using those 1 shot touch spells to deliver 1 big punch, and in that case the extra attacks don't help much.

But I'm sure there are lots of Magus Spells that can the OP can use to buff his character in more general ways, Bull Strength, Alter Self into a Sewer Troll and get 4 Claw Attacks instead of 2, Shield, Mage Armor, and other stuff. One of the problems with self-buffing characters is that most of the time, you want to spend your combat actually hitting things rather than self-buffing. It seems you can use Spell Combat to do both at once, and that might be a fair idea for a character build.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Alchemists' Vestigial Arms and Tentacles don't grant extra attacks.
No, but they give you an extra free hand, which is the requirement for spell combat.

True, but it's still of limited utility. You can't wield 2 weapons and use spell combat with your 3rd all in the same round if that 3rd hand is a Vestigial Arm. Either one of your Weapons is an off-hand attack, or the spell is: you'd have to choose each round. You can't do all 3.

That being said, there are a lot of times when it's nice to have that choice.

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I guess you could do something like be a natural-attacking Magus. Be a Tengu with Bite and Claws, take that level in White Haired Witch,

Tengu don't have hair, though. I don't believe the discussion on that was ever resolved, it's one of those perennial FAQ candidates.

Quote:
Alter Self into a Sewer Troll and get 4 Claw Attacks instead of 2,

As far as I can tell, a sewer troll has two claws, not four. Am I missing some combo here?

Quote:
One of the problems with self-buffing characters is that most of the time, you want to spend your combat actually hitting things rather than self-buffing.

Precisely. This is why Magus and Warpriest (and at higher level, Bloodrager) make the best gishes. It's all about action economy.


Well as a Magus you can't get Improved TWF until Level 8. A Warpriest can pick it up at 6th despite having medium BAB. They get a lot of bonuses like fervor, which allows them to ignore somatic components, or potentially make self-healing viable. It would definitely give you the same feeling, just that Warpriest is much more TWF friendly.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I guess you could do something like be a natural-attacking Magus. Be a Tengu with Bite and Claws, take that level in White Haired Witch,
Tengu don't have hair, though. I don't believe the discussion on that was ever resolved, it's one of those perennial FAQ candidates.

I can see ruling that a Druid/White Haired Witch Wildshaped into a Shark couldn't use White Hair because in that form, sharks don't have hair.

But per RAW, Tengu aren't prohibited from taking levels in White Haired Witches, and that means they just have to be allowed to use the White Hair ability.

GMs running their own campaigns can houserule any way they want, though. You should always vet all builds with your GM fastidiously and as thoroughly as possible and hope that he will be true to himself.

Even if you're right, we're still talking about 4 attacks/round + Spell Combat, and the OP was only looking for 2.

Kurald Galain wrote:
As far as I can tell, a sewer troll has two claws, not four. Am I missing some combo here?

I guess I was thinking of something else, perhaps Monstrous Physiquing into a 4-armed Sahaugin. Still Alter Self is an lovely self-buffing spell, and sewer Trolls are pretty cool.

Kurald Galain wrote:
Precisely. This is why Magus and Warpriest (and at higher level, Bloodrager) make the best gishes. It's all about action economy.

I had been thinking about a PFS Tengu Warpriest with a level in WHW and a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. This thread is making me think that adding some levels in Magus, at least enough to the Wand Wielder and/or Broad Study arcanas is a combo worthy of thought.

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:


But per RAW, Tengu

Well, there really is no point in discussing it again in this thread, but last time I saw it discussed there was no consensus on the topic. Your argument here is basically "there is no discussion because everybody who disagrees with me is wrong" :P


In PFS white haired witches "supernaturally grow hair" to use their ability.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


But per RAW, Tengu
Well, there really is no point in discussing it again in this thread, but last time I saw it discussed there was no consensus on the topic. Your argument here is basically "there is no discussion because everybody who disagrees with me is wrong" :P

If you don't want to argue about it, that's for the best, since it could derail the thread, but you are mischaracterizing my position. While of course I believe that anyone who disagrees with me was wrong--were it not so, we'd be agreeing!--my advice to the OP is strictly rules-based.

Pretty much the only things that White Haired Witches get is that White Hair. I just don't see how you can be allowed to even take a level in White Haired Witch if you aren't allowed that hair. That would be a little like building half a bridge then letting cars drive up on it.

Chess Pwn wrote:
In PFS white haired witches "supernaturally grow hair" to use their ability.

Has that been officially stated somewhere, or is that just they way you've seen it done?

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