mafga Neg |
Hi Hi
In the game I'm in the Players want to start a new Country.
I generally have nothing against it if they really want to do it, but i have troubls in thinking of how to give them some.
Especial they are like oh lets go to an desolated spot, Problem is their are at andoran Close to cheliax and lsger.
To their Advantage a big natural catastropy did just hit Andoran with destroying big parts of it.
to their Disadvantage their main Cleric is a necromancer with a Vampire Wife so they want to have Undead treaten equally.(he is Neutral)
At the Moment they are like lets go to the Leader of Andora and ask for some spare Land.
I dont want to be like no Chance you convince them but it dont want to make it like yeah talk to him 1 time and bam everything done.
the Players are Level 9 at the Moment.
So i have some Problems at the Moment to give them a fair (low) Chance which doesnt Sound super cheesy
best regards
Claxon |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Run the Kingmaker Campaign. It is literally about starting a new country.
Since you're already in the middle of a campaign it can be as easy as telling the party that the Stolen Lands are set just right to be the setting for a new kingdom. Brevoy an neighboring kingdom to the lawless lands is asking for help settling the area and seeing a proper kingdom put in place as opposed to the unorganized roving bands of monsters that currently occupy the territory.
They can quickly and easily work through the books of the AP until they hit the part that is for their level.
Rub-Eta |
Starting a country on another nation's soil isn't the greatest idea ever.
In the River Kingdoms (where Kingmaker takes place), it could work. But in Andoran and Cheliax it's a big no-no.
Have them seek out new land. Tell them that if they want this, without having to be giant dicks about it and potentially/probably getting mowed down by an army, that they need to travel elsewhere. -Quest for soil.
Or maybe they should try to purchase a piece of land or an island? Maybe there's a ruler willing to sell wild-land for good gold. Have them start saving up.
mafga Neg |
at the Moment my main Problem is keeping them from suicide. xD
Our necromancer really want to visits Codwin I of Augustana and ask him for land for him and is Undead friends...
I want to give them a somewhat Chance to not beinstandly killed after like 2-3 sentences ...
Their plan is to convice him to give him some of the land which was completly havoked by an earthquake to rebuild it.
bitter lily |
So have Codwin do what monarchs traditionally do when high-level trouble shows up on the doorstep of their throne-rooms: give them a "this will kill them for sure" quest.
It sounds like you're going to have to do some quick thinking as to what this quest will involve. Ideally, based on what Claxon and Rub-Eta have said, the Royal Quest will send them to the River Kingdoms, where you can slip them into Kingmaker without them ever noticing. Then they'll find land that you can assure them is much more suitable.
Odraude |
If you want to do kingdom building, I would suggest using the updated Ultimate Campaign rules for it.
Traditionally, if you have the military force and money, you could build a fort and simply claim land. As long as you didn't piss off a different ruler, then you'd be fine. This is much easier in uncontrolled or contested lands, such as the River Kingdoms. Your players could also swear fealty to another kingdom and be a vassal. However there has to be a good reason for a ruler to give out land. The players would have to prove themselves to not only be loyal to Codwin, but also have some intrinsic value to him.
Because it's feudalism, it may be easier to have them interact with a count or duke. Perhaps have them save his life, or the life of one of their family members. Proving themselves loyal, they get a manor, some land, and can be barons under a lord.
Though if they want to rule on their own without any allegiance, I would say stick to the River Kingdoms and have them ally, annex, and otherwise assimilate the petty kingdoms there.
Bandw2 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
so... ugh...
for the period pathfinder kind of describes itself, which is generally early renaissance. The idea of nations wasn't a strong one. people had fiefs or titles and what not and people pledged loyalty to them. They didn't pledge to the Kingdom, but to the actual King. People weren't german, in that they were part of germany, but german in that they were culturally speaking german.
for this reason the existence Andoran annoys me. Pledging yourself to a national identity that didn't exist didn't make sense to about anyone until the 1800s.
HOWEVER, what they can do, is somehow settle the land that got hit by the natural disaster, or any region where the governments grip isn't strong. If anyone says they own the land, they're wrong and simply attack them. Eventually you'll have recognized by the surrounding countries as a sovereign power.
Basically, if they can't keep a grip on the land, it isn't theirs, not unless they want to conquer it.
Gulthor |
Varisia is another area that's largely open for the taking (though don't be surprised if you peeve off native Varisians and/or Shoanti if you don't do it right.)
My character in our Rise of the Runelords campaign founded the kingdom (queendom?) of Storval after claiming the former Xin-Shalast as her capital city (with party support/approval, of course.)
Storval is still part of our Golarion's canon, though it hasn't been used (Varisia is pretty remote, after all.)
If we ever ran through Second Darkness or Shattered Star, though, I have a feeling it could fairly reasonably come up.
Hugo Rune |
I'm not terribly into the Golarion game world but my understanding is that both nations are civilised and heavily populated. So as others have said, claiming some unruled territory is not likely. I understand both countries to be lawfully aligned however and probably feudal.
One approach may be to fabricate a claim for a minor borderland barony. Try picking one where the baron is out of favour with his liege lord or king. The party then ousts the baron and assumes control whilst the liege lord is minded not to intervene. Once the party have consolidated power within the barony they can look to expand their domain across other baronies, claim a county etc. At some point the party should have enough power to claim independence and either be let go or more likely start a civil war for independence.
The campaign is likely to take more than a turn towards the political, as the party try to uncover information about the courtly figures in order to identify who they should oust and to gain the support necessary to be successful.
Try playing Crusader Kings 2 for some ideas of the mechanics involved.
Odraude |
so... ugh...
for the period pathfinder kind of describes itself, which is generally early renaissance. The idea of nations wasn't a strong one. people had fiefs or titles and what not and people pledged loyalty to them. They didn't pledge to the Kingdom, but to the actual King. People weren't german, in that they were part of germany, but german in that they were culturally speaking german.
for this reason the existence Andoran annoys me. Pledging yourself to a national identity that didn't exist didn't make sense to about anyone until the 1800s.
HOWEVER, what they can do, is somehow settle the land that got hit by the natural disaster, or any region where the governments grip isn't strong. If anyone says they own the land, they're wrong and simply attack them. Eventually you'll have recognized by the surrounding countries as a sovereign power.
Basically, if they can't keep a grip on the land, it isn't theirs, not unless they want to conquer it.
While true, Golarion essentially has nations for most of their areas since it is shown through the lens of 21st century thinking. There are many factors that have led to the idea of the nation state and nationalism (industrial revolution, better roads and locomotion), but Golarion doesn't really get into it as much.
And there are arguments that the idea of a nation isn't as new, with scholars arguing that certain eras of the Roman Empire as well as China and Athens meet the definition we have of a nation.
Though this doesn't really matter to the OP. Ultimately, you can definitely have your players run their own country.
NenkotaMoon |
so... ugh...
for the period pathfinder kind of describes itself, which is generally early renaissance. The idea of nations wasn't a strong one. people had fiefs or titles and what not and people pledged loyalty to them. They didn't pledge to the Kingdom, but to the actual King. People weren't german, in that they were part of germany, but german in that they were culturally speaking german.
for this reason the existence Andoran annoys me. Pledging yourself to a national identity that didn't exist didn't make sense to about anyone until the 1800s.
HOWEVER, what they can do, is somehow settle the land that got hit by the natural disaster, or any region where the governments grip isn't strong. If anyone says they own the land, they're wrong and simply attack them. Eventually you'll have recognized by the surrounding countries as a sovereign power.
Basically, if they can't keep a grip on the land, it isn't theirs, not unless they want to conquer it.
a couple nations in this setting beg to differ.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:a couple nations in this setting beg to differ.so... ugh...
for the period pathfinder kind of describes itself, which is generally early renaissance. The idea of nations wasn't a strong one. people had fiefs or titles and what not and people pledged loyalty to them. They didn't pledge to the Kingdom, but to the actual King. People weren't german, in that they were part of germany, but german in that they were culturally speaking german.
for this reason the existence Andoran annoys me. Pledging yourself to a national identity that didn't exist didn't make sense to about anyone until the 1800s.
HOWEVER, what they can do, is somehow settle the land that got hit by the natural disaster, or any region where the governments grip isn't strong. If anyone says they own the land, they're wrong and simply attack them. Eventually you'll have recognized by the surrounding countries as a sovereign power.
Basically, if they can't keep a grip on the land, it isn't theirs, not unless they want to conquer it.
the point is, it's harder to make a kingdom in a day and age where nations are a thing, because no one will support you, and will try to overthrow you to rejoin with X or recreate Y. much easier to have a revolution, that way you're still technically X and Y, and no true XYian would ever try to fight the XYian state, that's just pure Zian thinking.
You can be a Colony Company though, you fund a colonizing effort on behalf of nation Q, and they get the resources and you get the tax revenue. If you want to see how this works, look at Russia's expansion eastward, or more contemporary most expeditions to the new world on behalf of western europe except spain, who just straight up conquered the places they went to.
Hell, the biggest issue of creating a nation is that if you get a bunch of say Germans in your Czechoslovakia, Germany can just go up and declare war on you to protect their German interests.
Gulthor |
Geography is going to matter a lot for your player. Some good ideas have been mentioned (Kingmaker is an exceptional idea, in my opinion), but if your player randomly decided they were going to found a fiefdom in Cheliax, for example, expect really terrible, terrible things to happen to that new fledgling fiefdom very, very quickly. Cheliax don't play.
ShroudedInLight |
I am in favor of the "this will kill them for sure quest" where the ruler of whatever kingdom they want to take a chunk out of (especially if it is a desolated and mostly worthless spot) decides that the high level and dangerous PCs "have a point" and will offer the lands for sale to whoever proves themselves worthy by going off and doing "x".
This does two things, one it opens up the land grab to competition so you can add in rival parties and a time limit to them completing the quest. Two, it allows you to delay giving them the land until you have all the rules figured out for them running a kingdom.
Even if the PCs do succeed, in the time it took them to complete the quest the ruler of the kingdom can have harvested the land of many natural resources and leave them with an even more worthless spot. If the PCs fail in solving all of the issues that come with the territory, the ruler can offer to buy back the land for a fraction of what the PCs paid for it. If the PCs succeed, then the King can let them fix whatever problem was developing and see if they are worthy neighbors. If they slip up, they can be gobbled back up by the King's vastly superior army.
Even 12th level PCs will have trouble if 100,000 soldiers come knocking at their run down castle.
Odraude |
Varisia and the River Kingdoms are probably your best bet. The Land of the Linnorm Kings has a feudal/chiefdom system so if your players prove themselves as capable raiders and warriors, they may get granted land
Otherwise, the much of the wilds of Garund are not civilized by people and are ripe for colonization.
Goblin_Priest |
"To their Advantage a big natural catastrophe did just hit Andoran with destroying big parts of it."
I'm not familiar with Golarion (at all), but history (and maybe mostly strategy games like Risk!) teach us that when the great powers are sufficiently distracted/crippled, the smaller players can carve a place for themselves and rise to the top.
In a context of great chaos, all bets are off. Trying to carve a colony out of an Empire is the middle of its golden age is bound to fail miserably... but what if that nation just lost a large part of its armed forces, and economy, to that catastrophe? What if the swathes of destruction split the nation in parts, leaving some regions to autonomous rule, at best, or outright secession or rebellion. Maybe the previous government (King or whatever) lost more to the catastrophe than his previous rivals did, maybe they think the time is right to grab power for themselves. Maybe rival nations are finally seeing an opportunity to satisfy their ambitions or lust for revenge.
Sure, if you march a 1 000 man army into a 100 000 man army, you will fail. But if that 100 000 man army is busy fighting off 10 000 rebels to the west, suppressing a secession in the East, fending off a 50 000 men invasion army in the North, and preventing a peasant revolt in the poverty-stricken capital, all that with extremely low army morale, fighting off the 1 000 man army in some remote low-value borderland might just not be worth it. As for the locals... well, if their government abandoned them, and monstrous raids became commonplace, they might be very welcoming of this new army keeping them safe and returning some form of stability.
In the end, it's not all about raw numbers. Bigger empires have bigger worries, higher upkeep. A nation is, in a sense, like a business. A small start-up company can often afford a few disastrous results, even a whole year without any income at all, while a large company could easily be forced into bankruptcy even with millions in income, due to drop of just a few % points in their income. Many large empires lost humiliating wars against much weaker opponents, often because they simply could not muster their resources there where they needed them.
Odraude |
The thing about invasion is that there has to be a reason for it. If the players are just starting a small trade village, then the only persons that would possibly invade are pirates and rival robber barons. Larger nations probably wouldn't care too much. And they would attempt to invade only if they certainly had a great force of arms and magic. This would be a good chance for the players to try and overcome the obstacle with roleplay and combat, but invasion shouldn't be a foregone conclusion.
And I wouldn't throw it at the players immediately. Far too often, GMs like to crush what their players build in the vein of having conflict and obstacles. But I think for a while, it's good to just let their village grow for a time. It shouldn't be easy of course, but having someone try and knock over their proverbial sand castle on a weekly basis gets old hat pretty quickly. It makes players get more detached to their village when you keep smashing it on them. Let them enjoy the fruits of their labor every so often.
And if their trade country has become popular and wealthy, then there would be several kingdoms that would be happy to trade with them. For everyone count that would want to invade and take them, there are several allies that have commercial interest in their city state that would back them up. That's a key thing to remember as a GM.
Bandw2 |
The thing about invasion is that there has to be a reason for it. If the players are just starting a small trade village, then the only persons that would possibly invade are pirates and rival robber barons. Larger nations probably wouldn't care too much. And they would attempt to invade only if they certainly had a great force of arms and magic. This would be a good chance for the players to try and overcome the obstacle with roleplay and combat, but invasion shouldn't be a foregone conclusion.
And I wouldn't throw it at the players immediately. Far too often, GMs like to crush what their players build in the vein of having conflict and obstacles. But I think for a while, it's good to just let their village grow for a time. It shouldn't be easy of course, but having someone try and knock over their proverbial sand castle on a weekly basis gets old hat pretty quickly. It makes players get more detached to their village when you keep smashing it on them. Let them enjoy the fruits of their labor every so often.
And if their trade country has become popular and wealthy, then there would be several kingdoms that would be happy to trade with them. For everyone count that would want to invade and take them, there are several allies that have commercial interest in their city state that would back them up. That's a key thing to remember as a GM.
ugh... no the first person to invade would be the closest guy with enough troops to conquer the town, IF they're applying tariff to it. If they're down stream it's much likely they'll try to invade just to get the profits for themselves.
This is the point though, they'd have to be big enough to have an impact on the trade route before anyone would really care. Before then, they'll actually probably get a few offers from near by feudal lords if they would like to swear fealty to them.
Last I saw though was they were between Chelix and that democratic state, so that's unlikely. If anything the area might attract outlaws to the area, not to plunder the town but to prosper in the lack of oversight like in the 2 big neighbors.
You misunderstand land trade routes, modern trade is based on sea travel, and any 2 countries can pretty much trade whatever they want with each other(this means it's an open market with people making offers). Land based trade means everything downstream is more and more expensive as it is rebought and resold down stream at mark up. because of this, nations would prefer to conquer the land to make the items cheaper for their people than "trade" with link # 47 of a trade lane of resource X from faraway lands.
For historical evidence... look at England's colonization attempts beyond the new world. they conquered area after area to make the profits their own and lower the prices. The holy roman empire went to great lengths to make sure tariffs weren't being placed on traders traveling through any of the countries making up the empire to keep prices lower.
Son of the Veterinarian |
Looking at a map of the Inner Sea region there really doesn't seem to be anywhere besides the River Kingdoms or the area in and around the Mwangi Expanse that fits what you're looking for.
The only other thing that comes to mind right now would be for the PCs to carve a kingdom out of the mess in Galt - trading loyalty for a lack of decapitations - then fighting off all comers.
mafga Neg |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
-.- i tried my best to convincen them of some of the idear here but ... but shit went down ...
the noble in the Group(evil/servant of Urgathoa) did recruite an ghould as Squire and tried to get him into the next big City.
he straight told the gate guards that his Squire is an undead... then make an insane roll on intimidate and just walks in the City while the guards flee to the next check Point -.-
I tried my best to let them bribe the guard but they where to cheap to pay the guard to shout their mouth and eyes over the undead Squire.
At least they did not burn down the whole City but -.- as they gave up as the then alamred City guards found them. i had no Chance but to put them in jail -.-
Odraude |
Odraude wrote:The thing about invasion is that there has to be a reason for it. If the players are just starting a small trade village, then the only persons that would possibly invade are pirates and rival robber barons. Larger nations probably wouldn't care too much. And they would attempt to invade only if they certainly had a great force of arms and magic. This would be a good chance for the players to try and overcome the obstacle with roleplay and combat, but invasion shouldn't be a foregone conclusion.
And I wouldn't throw it at the players immediately. Far too often, GMs like to crush what their players build in the vein of having conflict and obstacles. But I think for a while, it's good to just let their village grow for a time. It shouldn't be easy of course, but having someone try and knock over their proverbial sand castle on a weekly basis gets old hat pretty quickly. It makes players get more detached to their village when you keep smashing it on them. Let them enjoy the fruits of their labor every so often.
And if their trade country has become popular and wealthy, then there would be several kingdoms that would be happy to trade with them. For everyone count that would want to invade and take them, there are several allies that have commercial interest in their city state that would back them up. That's a key thing to remember as a GM.
ugh... no the first person to invade would be the closest guy with enough troops to conquer the town, IF they're applying tariff to it. If they're down stream it's much likely they'll try to invade just to get the profits for themselves.
This is the point though, they'd have to be big enough to have an impact on the trade route before anyone would really care. Before then, they'll actually probably get a few offers from near by feudal lords if they would like to swear fealty to them.
Last I saw though was they were between Chelix and that democratic state, so that's unlikely. If anything the area might attract outlaws to the area,...
Which is fine and my entire point. The only people that would actively try and take the village are those with the force of arms to do it. But my point is, don't just throw a platoon of 40 people straight off the bat. Give the players some time to build up their little village at first. Get a garrison and their own militia to take on the wild first and then bring in the roving army. Start slow with small groups of bandits and go from there. If you just start with the roving army in the first week, then you are pretty much telling your players that there will be no kingdom building and you've wasted their time.
Throwing an army at a thorp would be like throwing a great wyrm at a level 1 party and expecting them to come out on top.
Bandw2 |
-.- i tried my best to convincen them of some of the idear here but ... but s%@@ went down ...
the noble in the Group(evil/servant of Urgathoa) did recruite an ghould as Squire and tried to get him into the next big City.
he straight told the gate guards that his Squire is an undead... then make an insane roll on intimidate and just walks in the City while the guards flee to the next check Point -.-
I tried my best to let them bribe the guard but they where to cheap to pay the guard to shout their mouth and eyes over the undead Squire.
At least they did not burn down the whole City but -.- as they gave up as the then alamred City guards found them. i had no Chance but to put them in jail -.-
do undead get trials?
Ventnor |
mafga Neg wrote:do undead get trials?-.- i tried my best to convincen them of some of the idear here but ... but s%@@ went down ...
the noble in the Group(evil/servant of Urgathoa) did recruite an ghould as Squire and tried to get him into the next big City.
he straight told the gate guards that his Squire is an undead... then make an insane roll on intimidate and just walks in the City while the guards flee to the next check Point -.-
I tried my best to let them bribe the guard but they where to cheap to pay the guard to shout their mouth and eyes over the undead Squire.
At least they did not burn down the whole City but -.- as they gave up as the then alamred City guards found them. i had no Chance but to put them in jail -.-
Depends on how "Gebby" a place is, I suppose.
Morganstern |
yeah that is what i mean with, i have to Keep them from commiting suicicde -.-
Honestly, it might be best to let consequences happen. A PC just threatened, directly or indirectly, an official of the city. The law takes very unkindly to that anywhere, and adding in the fact that they marched an undead creature into town may very well make this a severe crime, as most governments are probably going to take that the wrong way.
Let them have some serious jail time, maybe even have the government force a geas/quest on them as part of their release.That'll give you an adventure seed and show the player that regardless of level, some things just aren't done.
mafga Neg |
yeah that might be a good idea. but i have to think what to do with them after 24h in prison, since they went for PC which are a bit powergameing so they did Chose really bad Thing for such situations.
for one of them being half drow is a least Problem.
their are 2 disguised undead with them in jail at the Moment.
1x a Drowned Maid they did pick up on the way, and one PC graveknight in Disguise too.
then we also have a devil Workshipping half elf with an Imp as Familiar...(she is from cheliax and she got imprisoned in andoran at the Moment), I just feel bad for one guy. He is normaly the big mouth which gets them in Trouble but he is just a normal human ranger and he did shut is mouth this time.
mafga Neg |
my main fear at the Moment is that they start destroying the City -.-(they are all Level 9), did look at the spell list of the half elf she has dimensional door. As i did ask for their plans now they just told me they dont want to burn down the City so far and they still plan on makeing some negotiations with the City consul, xD im Kind of exited on how they want to pull that off.
Balancer |
Honestly level 9, while impressive isn't powerful enough to bring a city down by themselves. Between any local hero's, the guard and local clergy and creative tactics the should probably flee. Depending on how big the city is and how faithful (I'm assuming this is Andoran) their should be a couple of paladins or ealge knights in the city. If they really want to do something dumb, let them know their decisions have consequences and run them out of town.
At the moment it sounds like your players are trying to go about something with no plan, no way to convince other people of their legitimacy and are confused when reality isn't conforming to their wants.
mafga Neg |
they are pretty op for Level 9 -.-. last time i tried something like that it back fired for me. i did let them walk directly into the lair of an Mature Adult Black Dragon, -.- he(got first turn)and survived 1.5 rounds with scrating one Player and then got revived as undead minion from the necromancer -.-. now they have an undead Dragon outside of the City -.-
. on the other Hand Paladins might not that bad idea, xD last time the other cleric was like i will mass heal you all, he forgot that 1/3 of the Party got damaged by that "Heal"
Balancer |
Well, there is something nasty I can show you. Even in a 1-20 mythic 10 game this thing kept me and my fellow party members on our toes.
It consists of 100 lvl 1 adepts with a 1 charge wand of magic missle cl 1 and potion of true strike. They a lead by a lvl 5 bard and who casts silent image to hide the group.
Use of this illusion are like so:
Party is walking down a street, on of the houses/buildings is actually an illusion.
Party is in a forest, a bunch of trees are an illusion.
Party is traveling over land, that pile of rocks/Hill is an illusion. Ect ect
They all have heavy crossbows and are effectively invisible. When they spot the party they drink the true strike then fire at a single caster. Then the next round they use their wands of magic missle to cap another caster if available or shoot who ever is the biggest threat.
This provides a cheap (for a nation) and deadly way to keep high level adventures in line and handle would be conquerors or rival hero's.