Android Barbarian -- Illegal Combination or Legal and Terrifying?


Rules Questions


Rage (Ex) wrote:

A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death.

Constructed Race Trait wrote:
For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), androids count as both humanoids and constructs. Androids gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Androids can never gain morale bonuses, and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects

Nowhere in Rage does it ever call the state of Rage an emotional effect. It can also be seen as simply a mentally tasking trance-like state that corresponds to a sudden burst of strength. The only thing that really indicates emotion at all is the term "Rage", but nowhere mechanically is it stated that creatures immune to emotion effects cannot enter this state.

Is Rage inherently emotional? Can Android's rage?

If they can, we've unleashed some monster upon the world. Androids, while incapable of benefiting from the STR and CON bonuses, would be able to enter Rage whenever they wanted and leave it the same turn. Never experiencing the negative effects of it or of leaving it.

This means that an Android Barbarian can use their once-per-rage powers once per round. An Android Barbarian can learn the Beast Totem tree and become a thing out of Five Nights at Freddy's.

What otherwise looks like a poor choice in optimization becomes a true nightmare. A peaceable-looking droid one second, and then a monstrous beast plunging towards you the next.


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Rage (Ex) wrote:


A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death.
Constructed Race Trait wrote:


For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), androids count as both humanoids and constructs. Androids gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Androids can never gain morale bonuses, and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects...

I think I said all that needs to be said (that being there is little benefit from raging for an android) but with that yes an android can rage, it's just a penalty for them to do so (-2 penalty to AC no bonuses). However yes you will have the use of your rage powers, so I guess that's something.


The unchained barbarian questionably works. And you can even make it dex based.


This reminds me of Warforged from Eberron and Barbarian class, also immune to fatigue effect, but also couldn't be healed with divine magic very well, if at all, depending on build.


Axoren wrote:
Rage (Ex) wrote:

A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death.

Constructed Race Trait wrote:
For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), androids count as both humanoids and constructs. Androids gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Androids can never gain
...

Rage cycling as long been a thing, and there are much better ways to do it than being an android. Also, you cant "leave rage the same turn." Once activated, rage lasts a round once activated barring going unconscious. And the Beast totem line doesn't have any 1/rage powers, so it doesn't really have anything to do with rage cycling.


Calth wrote:
Also, you cant "leave rage the same turn." Once activated, rage lasts a round once activated barring going unconscious.

That's not in the rules (which only say "A barbarian can end her rage as a free action"), though I'd say that if a barbarian ends their rage in the same round, they have still expended 1 round of rage and are fatigued for 2.


You'd still take the penalty to Armor Class and get to use Rage Powers. There is a feat(with the step cost of Cha 13) that let's you benefit from Moral bonuses but removes some immunities.

Sovereign Court

Calm Emotions explicity works on the Barbarian Rage ability, so I'd consider that very strong support for Rage being necessarily emotional.


The morale bonus and it being called 'rage' seems clearly emotional to me. That said, since an android can still do it and just not get the bonuses, I'd see it as the android trying to replicate anger as they've seen it, which just leads them to leaving themselves open, with none of the benefits.


Empathy


Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy

Dropped by to link this. I'd also think that Rage(Ex) not being an emotion-based effect (since rage is actually an emotion) would be a hard sell to most GMs. Especially since there's a feat that does exactly what you want.


Also, Dreadnought Barbarian seems thematically appropriate and not overpowered(*) for an Android who DOESN'T have Empathy, although you would need a bit of DM fiat to make it actually work right, and the 14th level ability (Fearless Killer) is redundant on an Android without Empathy (although if the DM is going to handwave the Dead Calm Rage to give full benefits on an Android without Empathy, might as well rule that effects which remove Fear Immunity only remove 1 source of Fear Immunity. Alternatively, 14+-1th level might be a good time to pick up Empathy, since Fearless Killer will cover you against anything that causes fear and doesn't remove Fear Immunity, as long as you are in Dead Calm Rage.

(*)The archetype explicitly doesn't let you rage cycle until you get to 17th level, even though you are not Fatigued by the Rage even if you are not an Android.


Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy

Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.

Silver Crusade

Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.

Yeah, Empathy should have been an alternate racial trait or something.

Liberty's Edge

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Rysky wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.
Yeah, Empathy should have been an alternate racial trait or something.

Actually you can do some interesting trick if it is a feat that you can't do if it is a racial trait and still require cha 13.

To get the feat you need cha 13, but that can be achieved trough a headband of alluring charisma. And if you get it by using a magic item you can deactivate it by removing it. Taht should remove both the benefit and penalty.


Diego, that is an interesting thought. Reminds me of Data from Star Trek turning off his emotion chip.


Androids can not benefit from morale bonuses, which kind of cuts the plan off the knees right there, as all of the bonuses Barbarians gain from rage are morale bonuses.


Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.

Getting rid of a core race feature should take more than just a simple feat investment.


Buligup wrote:
Diego, that is an interesting thought. Reminds me of Data from Star Trek turning off his emotion chip.

It should be noted that Data from Star Trek is not a Pathfinder Android.

1. He's not alive, he does not need to eat, sleep, or drink. Androids do.

2. Data is made of mechanical parts, Androids are artificially created flesh. If you cut them, they do bleed. Unlike Data, they can self heal the way flesh creatures do over time. Data's injuries require repair.

3. Androids have souls, and can be creative. The best Data can do is to ape others and replicate their performances, he is not creative.

4. Androids, unlike Data are not immortal, at the end of their span, thier soul departs and is replaced. Data as long as he is maintained has no effective limit to his lifespan, although he may reach a point where he can contain no more data.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.
Getting rid of a core race feature should take more than just a simple feat investment.

Not when it's the kind of racial option that most races get for free. That's like saying elves should have to take a feat to lose their sleep immunity.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.
Getting rid of a core race feature should take more than just a simple feat investment.

Should've simply made it an alternate racial trait. Honestly, making it a feat requirement is certainly more than hefty enough, since the only real Android character I'd think of that would be able to take the feat and want to are Bloodragers.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.
Getting rid of a core race feature should take more than just a simple feat investment.
Should've simply made it an alternate racial trait. Honestly, making it a feat requirement is certainly more than hefty enough, since the only real Android character I'd think of that would be able to take the feat and want to are Bloodragers.

Ow my main casting stat.

Still ... honestly, if Calm Emotions can kill a rage, it'd have to follow that rage is an emotional thing. While it's funny to imagine an android 'replicating' a rage ('Grr. Argh. Blood. Death. Vengeance.'), mechanically it's falling flat, even Unchained. (Otherwise ... an android unchained barbarian would be immune to Calm Emotions, right?)


Interesting. Does calm emotions stop an unchained rage? I expect there is some text in unchained saying that the abilities can be targeted by spells and effects as if they were the chained versions.


Qaianna wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Empathy
Is a terrible feat. First, the prereq is very high, as androids have a penalty to charisma. Second, the feat takes away at least as much as it gives, where a good feat should always give a little more than it takes.
Getting rid of a core race feature should take more than just a simple feat investment.
Should've simply made it an alternate racial trait. Honestly, making it a feat requirement is certainly more than hefty enough, since the only real Android character I'd think of that would be able to take the feat and want to are Bloodragers.

Ow my main casting stat.

Still ... honestly, if Calm Emotions can kill a rage, it'd have to follow that rage is an emotional thing. While it's funny to imagine an android 'replicating' a rage ('Grr. Argh. Blood. Death. Vengeance.'), mechanically it's falling flat, even Unchained. (Otherwise ... an android unchained barbarian would be immune to Calm Emotions, right?)

The problem I have with that is that it stems from people going with the assumption that robots are linear and rail-roaded, like a bad Diablo clone adventure, not quadratic and complex, like a truly fleshed out character, storyline, and adventure.

Seriously, it's like comparing something with a "0101101001001" coding, to...well...Bender, from Futurama, for a more colloquial example.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Buligup wrote:
Diego, that is an interesting thought. Reminds me of Data from Star Trek turning off his emotion chip.

It should be noted that Data from Star Trek is not a Pathfinder Android.

1. He's not alive, he does not need to eat, sleep, or drink. Androids do.

2. Data is made of mechanical parts, Androids are artificially created flesh. If you cut them, they do bleed. Unlike Data, they can self heal the way flesh creatures do over time. Data's injuries require repair.

3. Androids have souls, and can be creative. The best Data can do is to ape others and replicate their performances, he is not creative.

4. Androids, unlike Data are not immortal, at the end of their span, thier soul departs and is replaced. Data as long as he is maintained has no effective limit to his lifespan, although he may reach a point where he can contain no more data.

Um, what was your point? I said utilizing the headband to turn on and off the empathy feat reminds me of Data, not that an android was Data. Thanks for the analysis I guess.


You missed something. Without a feat Androids Do not benefit from Morale Bonuses. Reread Barbarians Rage bonuses they are Morale bonuses so no you do not get any bonus to Raging. A high Chr and a feat can change that but otherwise no.


Unchained Barbarian Android works by the rules. Unless you change the rules, it just works. Like that 'magic' thing that permeates almost every stage of the gameworld.


technarken wrote:
Unchained Barbarian Android works by the rules. Unless you change the rules, it just works. Like that 'magic' thing that permeates almost every stage of the gameworld.

It's the King Crimson of Pathfinder. By all logic, it is nonsensical, but by rules, or by poor English translators messing up how the ability works, it simply works. And now you have an angry android's karate chop nearly cutting you in half.

In all seriousness, I want to ask people what they think of the fact that the Unchained Barbarian's Indomitable Will still states that the Will bonus from Rage is a morale bonus. I would assume it is a copy-paste mistake but it could be used to shut down this character concept.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Buligup wrote:
Diego, that is an interesting thought. Reminds me of Data from Star Trek turning off his emotion chip.

It should be noted that Data from Star Trek is not a Pathfinder Android.

1. He's not alive, he does not need to eat, sleep, or drink. Androids do.

2. Data is made of mechanical parts, Androids are artificially created flesh. If you cut them, they do bleed. Unlike Data, they can self heal the way flesh creatures do over time. Data's injuries require repair.

3. Androids have souls, and can be creative. The best Data can do is to ape others and replicate their performances, he is not creative.

4. Androids, unlike Data are not immortal, at the end of their span, thier soul departs and is replaced. Data as long as he is maintained has no effective limit to his lifespan, although he may reach a point where he can contain no more data.

Within the context of the show your number three is arguable - at best.


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Yeah, Data is proven to be creative many times through the run of the show. It felt like half of the episodes with Dr Palaski were about this issue. And anyone's possession of a soul is impossible to prove without using magic, so Data may or may not have one.


Melkiador wrote:
Yeah, Data is proven to be creative many times through the run of the show. It felt like half of the episodes with Dr Palaski were about this issue. And anyone's possession of a soul is impossible to prove without using magic, so Data may or may not have one.

No he isn't... almost all of his "creativity" is an adaption or downright regurgitation of someone else's work. And souls are a bit of a bugaboo on my part since they probably don't exist at all in that context.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
No he isn't... almost all of his "creativity" is an adaption or downright regurgitation of someone else's work.

Almost all of everyone's creativity is adaptation of the work of others. We just aren't as conscious of it as Data is. But Data does create original art and poetry.


what about this: under the android race. fixes the whole problem.

Anomaly: Sometimes, a particularly volatile soul can overwhelm the technology of an android body, making the resulting individual subject to emotions, and greatly so. Anomalous androids suffer a –2 racial penalty on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects, emotion effects, and fear effects but can gain the benefits of morale bonuses and suffer no penalty on Sense Motive checks. Additionally, Bluff and Sense Motive are always class skills for them. This racial trait modifies constructed and replaces logical. [JBE:BoHR:AA]


Lobolusk wrote:

what about this: under the android race. fixes the whole problem.

Anomaly: Sometimes, a particularly volatile soul can overwhelm the technology of an android body, making the resulting individual subject to emotions, and greatly so. Anomalous androids suffer a –2 racial penalty on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects, emotion effects, and fear effects but can gain the benefits of morale bonuses and suffer no penalty on Sense Motive checks. Additionally, Bluff and Sense Motive are always class skills for them. This racial trait modifies constructed and replaces logical. [JBE:BoHR:AA]

It's third party, so off-limits to a lot of people. But it seems to be relatively well balanced for a racial option. The Empathy feat wouldn't be bad as a free racial option. It's just not worth the cost of a high prerequisite feat on top of its tradeoff.


didn't realize it was third party never mind


Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
No he isn't... almost all of his "creativity" is an adaption or downright regurgitation of someone else's work.
Almost all of everyone's creativity is adaptation of the work of others. We just aren't as conscious of it as Data is. But Data does create original art and poetry.

Ode to Spot is an example of verbal linoleum. :)


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Yeah, Data is proven to be creative many times through the run of the show. It felt like half of the episodes with Dr Palaski were about this issue. And anyone's possession of a soul is impossible to prove without using magic, so Data may or may not have one.
No he isn't... almost all of his "creativity" is an adaption or downright regurgitation of someone else's work. And souls are a bit of a bugaboo on my part since they probably don't exist at all in that context.

He's just being creative in an environmentally responsible way.


Melkiador wrote:
Interesting. Does calm emotions stop an unchained rage? I expect there is some text in unchained saying that the abilities can be targeted by spells and effects as if they were the chained versions.

Unchained rage is still rage, so yes Calm Emotions is not your friend no matter what kind of barbarian you are.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
No he isn't... almost all of his "creativity" is an adaption or downright regurgitation of someone else's work.
Almost all of everyone's creativity is adaptation of the work of others. We just aren't as conscious of it as Data is. But Data does create original art and poetry.

this came up recently but I can't remember why or when, but there was a question asked recently.

If a computer makes a piece of art, who owns it?

Ah! here we go. >found it<


Bandw2 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
No he isn't... almost all of his "creativity" is an adaption or downright regurgitation of someone else's work.
Almost all of everyone's creativity is adaptation of the work of others. We just aren't as conscious of it as Data is. But Data does create original art and poetry.

this came up recently but I can't remember why or when, but there was a question asked recently.

If a computer makes a piece of art, who owns it?

Ah! here we go. >found it<

Fascinating.

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