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Is it just me or is saying you want them redone different from being removed all together. It keeps tripping me up when I read some peoples responses.

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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Is it just me or is saying you want them redone different from being removed all together. It keeps tripping me up when I read some peoples responses.

I don't know. Honestly, most of the responses here feel more like what they prefer in their houserules rather than omissions that would improve the game mechanically. All done in a really negative tone.


Yeah I think some of them are jokes but its hard to tell. Some responses do seems a bit mean-natured.
Its why I made mine Ludicrously over the top.
I really can't think of much I would just completely remove maybe a few things I would alter.


Eryx_UK wrote:

Hybrid classes.

Attacks of Opportunity (or at least find another way to handle it).

Grapple rules (and do new ones that don't need a PHD in nuclear physics to work out).

CMB and CMD are just redundant. To Hit and AC should be plenty to resolve grapples and related attacks.

Grand Lodge

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Eryx_UK wrote:

Hybrid classes.

Attacks of Opportunity (or at least find another way to handle it).

Grapple rules (and do new ones that don't need a PHD in nuclear physics to work out).

CMB and CMD are just redundant. To Hit and AC should be plenty to resolve grapples and related attacks.

Or just call them "attack" and "defense" and apply different modifiers to each. Go Improved Grapple? Add +2 on attack rolls to grapple. Got Mobility? Add +4 on defense rolls provoked by AOOs from moving. You're right; there's no need for 4 stats and, furthermore, those stats have absurdly confusing names for what they actually do.


Yeps. That's all it would take and it would work.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Eryx_UK wrote:

Hybrid classes.

Attacks of Opportunity (or at least find another way to handle it).

Grapple rules (and do new ones that don't need a PHD in nuclear physics to work out).

CMB and CMD are just redundant. To Hit and AC should be plenty to resolve grapples and related attacks.

I'm not seeing how it's redundant. CMB largely exists as convenience for the player, because combat manuevers are literally just melee attack rolls. If you took away CMB and replaced it with a "Melee To Hit" statistic, you haven't really accomplished anything except force the player to do more math.


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One issue with combining hit & cmb is that you remove ways to get around armored targets. When faced with an iron wall, trip and grapple can be used to influence the target where regular attacks may not (because of low hit chance). It's similar to how ray attacks from mages target touch ac. Of course you could also make combat maneuvers target touch ac as well.


Making them touch attacks is one of the things I thought of. Another was replacing To Hit and AC with CMB and CMD. I doubt I'd actually do that, but like I said, they just seem redundant. But that's just my opinion.

Grand Lodge

Cyrad wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Eryx_UK wrote:

Hybrid classes.

Attacks of Opportunity (or at least find another way to handle it).

Grapple rules (and do new ones that don't need a PHD in nuclear physics to work out).

CMB and CMD are just redundant. To Hit and AC should be plenty to resolve grapples and related attacks.
I'm not seeing how it's redundant. CMB largely exists as convenience for the player, because combat manuevers are literally just melee attack rolls. If you took away CMB and replaced it with a "Melee To Hit" statistic, you haven't really accomplished anything except force the player to do more math.

I think he meant to get rid of CMB and let regular attack rolls handle maneuvers. The game uses "to hit" and "attack roll" inconsistently, but they are in fact synonyms.

Grand Lodge

Ranishe wrote:
One issue with combining hit & cmb is that you remove ways to get around armored targets. When faced with an iron wall, trip and grapple can be used to influence the target where regular attacks may not (because of low hit chance). It's similar to how ray attacks from mages target touch ac. Of course you could also make combat maneuvers target touch ac as well.

This is probably the best fix.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Is it just me or is saying you want them redone different from being removed all together. It keeps tripping me up when I read some peoples responses.

It kind of goes hand in hand. There are some feats, spells, and rulesets that are great in theory but are poor in execution. Then there are other things that while their existence hampers enjoyment, still require a suitable replacement to make the game work better.


Azten wrote:
Again, I don't think Paizo should get their hands on any of the 3rd party classes.

Well, obviously. We'd just port them into "Core" as-is. Don't know why the developers hate fighters so much.


Raving Nerd wrote:
Azten wrote:
Again, I don't think Paizo should get their hands on any of the 3rd party classes.
Well, obviously. We'd just port them into "Core" as-is. Don't know why the developers hate fighters so much.

They don't hate fighters, they love fighters......

..... In the context of the game as they play it. One where wizards tend towards casual blasting and clerics casual healing.

Grand Lodge

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Errata all erratas into oblivion.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

They don't hate fighters, they love fighters......

..... In the context of the game as they play it. One where wizards tend towards casual blasting and clerics casual healing.

Having played some Paizo APs that included dungeon crawls, I have a feeling that the PATHFINDER (TM) GAMESTYLE include one scripted combat encounter after another.


Raving Nerd wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

They don't hate fighters, they love fighters......

..... In the context of the game as they play it. One where wizards tend towards casual blasting and clerics casual healing.

Having played some Paizo APs that included dungeon crawls, I have a feeling that the PATHFINDER (TM) GAMESTYLE include one scripted combat encounter after another.

Do please elaborate on this point, it's not one I've heard before.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Do please elaborate on this point, it's not one I've heard before.

Paizo adventures expect you to follow the path. You're playing D&D, the way it was meant to be, with a nuclear party. Sure, you might swap a witch in for the arcane caster. Maybe you have a ranger for your rogue. But you don't step outside the box too much. You follow the breadcrumbs, you take the encounters headon (apply directly to the forehead), and you do what the author expected you to do when they wrote it.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Do please elaborate on this point, it's not one I've heard before.

Played several APs with dungeon crawls. You enter the dungeon. There is an encounter. Roll initiative. Now move onto the next portion of the dungeon. There is another encounter. Roll initiative. Continue onward. Time for the boss fight. Roll initiative.

Compared to older modules, like Keep on the Borderlands, Paizo's APs are Point A to Point B.


One problem with maneuvers targetting touch ac is that it's attribute reliant. That is, the dex based archer ranger will be harder to trip, grab, bullrush etc than the str based two handed fighter. More importantly, touch ac doesn't really scale. You'd quickly have characters able to grapple / trip everything because bab scales with level while touch ac doesnt. If you add bab to this specific instance....you're back to cmd.

A different way to make things more consistant is a thing I'm looking at, which is adding bab to ac. Although that has its own host of caveats and changes required to make it work.


On the subject of touch attacks, I don't use them. At all.

Effects which would otherwise be a touch attack trigger a Reflex Negates.


honestly, making combat maneuver's require saves instead of attack rolls(dc based off of BAB and such probably) might be a good idea.

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Headfirst wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Eryx_UK wrote:

Hybrid classes.

Attacks of Opportunity (or at least find another way to handle it).

Grapple rules (and do new ones that don't need a PHD in nuclear physics to work out).

CMB and CMD are just redundant. To Hit and AC should be plenty to resolve grapples and related attacks.
I'm not seeing how it's redundant. CMB largely exists as convenience for the player, because combat manuevers are literally just melee attack rolls. If you took away CMB and replaced it with a "Melee To Hit" statistic, you haven't really accomplished anything except force the player to do more math.
I think he meant to get rid of CMB and let regular attack rolls handle maneuvers. The game uses "to hit" and "attack roll" inconsistently, but they are in fact synonyms.

That's not true. "To hit" is not a game term in Pathfinder RPG. Any instance of the term in an official publication is a typo. Likewise with calling Strength and Intelligence "attributes" instead of ability scores. These mistakes tend to appear in homebrew material and 3pp publications.

A combat maneuver is pretty much a regular attack roll. The only difference is that there's some variance in what bonuses apply, which would still have to exist in a system that nixes CMB.


1.) all the weird comabt modifiers that arent well explained in the book (ie +1 longsword +14/+9/+4(1d4+1/19-20))

2.) One of the magic classes

3.)The use of different pronouns depending on the class or race.

And thus everyone gets triggered and floods the forums with hate messages....

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Batlin wrote:

1.) all the weird comabt modifiers that arent well explained in the book (ie +1 longsword +14/+9/+4(1d4+1/19-20))

2.) One of the magic classes

3.)The use of different pronouns depending on the class or race.

And thus everyone gets triggered and floods the forums with hate messages....

Can you explain what you mean by #1? I honestly dislike how statblocks aren't very intuitive. You pretty much need someone to teach you how to read them.

And for #3, it's based on the iconic character. The paladin and rogue are preferred as a female because the iconics are female. I would have preferred second-person over third-person, but sadly this convention was kept to take consistent with 3.5e.

The Exchange

I doubt anybody's reading these - just letting their eyes rest while they decide what they'll add to the dogpile. Nevertheless:

1. Alternate racial favored class bonuses. (I think the base option, +1 skill pt or +1 hp, was a fine mechanic.)

2. Alternate racial traits. ("My dwarf is a dwarf who is differently dwarfy from those boring old dwarfy dwarfs!" Ugh.)

3. Instant-gratification spells (we have sliding scales for ability damage, degrees of fear, etc. - it's time for the same fail-multiple-saves-before-you're-totally-boned option to apply to petrification, domination and even disintegration... although some folks might prefer being totally disintegrated to the things that might happen halfway down that scale.)


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Lincoln Hills wrote:

I doubt anybody's reading these - just letting their eyes rest while they decide what they'll add to the dogpile. Nevertheless:

1. Alternate racial favored class bonuses. (I think the base option, +1 skill pt or +1 hp, was a fine mechanic.)

2. Alternate racial traits. ("My dwarf is a dwarf who is differently dwarfy from those boring old dwarfy dwarfs!" Ugh.)

3. Instant-gratification spells (we have sliding scales for ability damage, degrees of fear, etc. - it's time for the same fail-multiple-saves-before-you're-totally-boned option to apply to petrification, domination and even disintegration... although some folks might prefer being totally disintegrated to the things that might happen halfway down that scale.)

I've read all of them... some i don't understand.

like I don't mind Alternate racial traits, wish favored stuff were actually just more generic options.

Grand Lodge

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Bandw2 wrote:
I don't mind Alternate racial traits, wish favored stuff were actually just more generic options.

My issue with alternate racial favored class bonuses is that 90% of them are absolute garbage (MUCH less useful than a hit point or skill point) and the other 10% are so monstrously advantageous that your build is basically a joke if you don't take advantage of them (bonus spells for spontaneous casters, etc).


Headfirst wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
I don't mind Alternate racial traits, wish favored stuff were actually just more generic options.
My issue with racial traits is that 90% of them are absolute garbage (MUCH less useful than a hit point or skill point) or so monstrously advantageous that your build is basically a joke if you don't take advantage of them (bonus spells for spontaneous casters, etc).

That sounds like an issue with Pathfinder as a whole.

The only thing better than 90% garbage is base classes, and even those are in the 50/50 range.

Traits, Feats, Spells, Magic Items.......


...find a new job. Who can afford to live in Seattle on that salary? ;-)


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bugleyman wrote:
...find a new job. Who can afford to live in Seattle on that salary? ;-)

Don't you know? All the Paizo lackeys... I mean lower level employees... sleep in a barracks/dormitory style room filled with bunk beds.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
...find a new job. Who can afford to live in Seattle on that salary? ;-)
Don't you know? All the Paizo lackeys sleep in a barracks/dormitory style room filled with bunk beds.

Beds? Who gave them beds?


1) Rogues and ninjas. Replace with the thief class, which would specialize in disappearing and stealing stuff.
2) The existing feat system, which would be replaced with my Trait Point system. Weak feats would either be gotten rid of or converted into Traits.
3)The dumb rule that prestige classes don't get the two free spells per level that wizard levels do.


Yeah, let's make the strongest class stronger XD

I'll admit, some of the things I'm seeing people want to remove I agree with. I mean, didn't Paizo want to get away from a race being the best race for a class?


Since technically you choose race first isn't it best class for a race? heh yeah I know no one thinks about it that way.


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Dhrakken wrote:
Errata all erratas into oblivion.

What errata? The rules have always been that way! Paizo has always been at war with East Fightasia.


Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
Dhrakken wrote:
Errata all erratas into oblivion.
What errata? The rules have always been that way! Paizo has always been at war with East Fightasia.

Yes, and ALL humanity beyond the walls has been devoured. Right?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

1) ACG
2) UC
3) Take 10 on Spellcraft for crafting.

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My biggest problem with racial favored class bonuses is that it doesn't make much sense to me to lock the options based on race. I'm totally OK with there being a class-specific favored class bonus option, but why is it race specific? The bonuses almost never have anything to do with the race. It's also totally unsustainable, because you have to make new options for every race/class combination and every time a new class or race gets made. It's a mess.

On top of it, whether or not a race favors a class should depend on setting and inherit synergies, but racial favored class bonus is a setting neutral mechanic

This is why when I designed the artiforged class, I simply laid out alternate favored class options and say the player can choose whichever they want.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok, now that I've given the topic's question a bit of thought, my three things would probably be:

1. Prestige classes
2. spell levels 6-9
3. Cheliax


1: heaven
2: hell
3: governing bodies (countries and organized religion)

*cue Lennon*

The Exchange

Bandw2 wrote:
Theliah Strongarm wrote:

1) Actually, adding a Book called Ultimate Creation Guide.

2) That's it.
you're never going to stop are you? :P

Not really. And you'll never stop me! HAHAHAHAHA!


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I would immediately order that Paizo stop using the D&D 3.75 edition that they have been using and make them create their own unique rpg.


Theliah Strongarm wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Theliah Strongarm wrote:

1) Actually, adding a Book called Ultimate Creation Guide.

2) That's it.
you're never going to stop are you? :P
Not really. And you'll never stop me! HAHAHAHAHA!

The first thing I'd remove would be Theliah Strongarm!


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It's amazing how many of you would deliberately kill the game and ensure Paizo goes the way of White Wolf and Guardians of Order.


Core Fighter
Core Monk
Core Rogue

There, now nobody insists a good class isn't balanced because absolutely rubbish classes can't compete (purely through fault of their own)

Dark Archive

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Gulthor wrote:
It's amazing how many of you would deliberately kill the game and ensure Paizo goes the way of White Wolf and Guardians of Order.

It's a grousing thread, you get that kind of folk.


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Farael the Fallen wrote:
I would immediately order that Paizo stop using the D&D 3.75 edition that they have been using and make them create their own unique rpg.

And lose a huge chunk of their fans and customer base, including me. I'd not buy into even a PF 2e. After over 30 years of gaming I've spent all the money I plan to spend on new editions. I'll keep supporting the current edition, but if it changes we'll just keep going with what we have.

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