"Gamer Girl": Thoughts on This Label?


Gamer Life General Discussion

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Norman Osborne wrote:
CrystalSeas wrote:
Backpack wrote:
If I refer to someone as a "Gamer Girl" that is simply because I wished to explain that she is a girl who also plays games in the fewest combination of possible words.

And the fact that someone was upset by that has not changed your behavior?

Perhaps you could afford the few microseconds it takes to use descriptions that aren't offensive. Or even just call her a Gamer. That's even fewer words.

The problem is that there is almost no behavior in today's world that won't offend some group of people or another. If you open a door for the woman behind you, she might get offended. If you don't open it for her, she might get offended. If you let it close in her face she will probably get offended. At a certain point, you have to just live by your own standards of behavior and accept that some people are going to occasionally take offense to something you have done. Constantly walking on eggshells in no way to live a life.

Yes, technically. Bullshit in spirit. Anything might offend someone. Some things are much more likely to.

Despite it being a constant boogeyman of evil feminism, I've never run into anyone offended by holding a door for them. Mind you, I don't make a huge production out of it - maybe that makes a difference?

It's worth paying attention to what offends people. You'll screw up sometimes, but most of the time it really isn't that hard. It's not walking on eggshells, it's just being decent.

Liberty's Edge

On the boys/girls night out thing:

I don't think segregating events on the basis of gender is usually appropriate behavior.

That said, friend groups are often (and unfortunately) so segregated, and wanting time away from your significant other specifically is something that seems reasonable to me, and the source of a lot of such events. Calling that a 'boys/girls night out' is a bad idea and divisive, though.

Norman Osborne wrote:
CrystalSeas wrote:
Backpack wrote:
If I refer to someone as a "Gamer Girl" that is simply because I wished to explain that she is a girl who also plays games in the fewest combination of possible words.

And the fact that someone was upset by that has not changed your behavior?

Perhaps you could afford the few microseconds it takes to use descriptions that aren't offensive. Or even just call her a Gamer. That's even fewer words.

The problem is that there is almost no behavior in today's world that won't offend some group of people or another. If you open a door for the woman behind you, she might get offended. If you don't open it for her, she might get offended. If you let it close in her face she will probably get offended. At a certain point, you have to just live by your own standards of behavior and accept that some people are going to occasionally take offense to something you have done. Constantly walking on eggshells in no way to live a life.

Nah. That's kind of a load of crap. As thejeff notes it's eminently possible to pay attention to what behavior offends people and try to minimize it.

Will everyone ever be happy? No, but you can minimize the number who are unhappy if you try.

Now, should you not do something you believe is right simply because it will offend people? Of course not. But if you have two courses of action that are both morally acceptable and one is likely to offend less people than the other...you should probably usually go with the one that offends less people.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Nah. That's kind of a load of crap. As thejeff notes it's eminently possible to pay attention to what behavior offends people and try to minimize it.

Will everyone ever be happy? No, but you can minimize the number who are unhappy if you try.

That will offend somebody somewhere, I'm kidding I'm kidding :p


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Funnily enough, when I was first coming out as trans, I started a blog called "Secret Gamer Girl," specifically in reference to how "Gamer Girl" (and Geek Girl, and other variations) is a loaded, derisive term, rooted in a baseless sense of entitlement that games are an explicitly male space and any women in them are an aberration (with the "Secret" part referring to all the double-standard-loaded "Fake Geek Girl" talk I overhear from people who think I'm a guy).

Of course, now it's been a few years and I've gotten so used to people using that or a variation to refer to me that personally it just feels like my name now. Still, in other contexts I find it's better to avoid describing someone as "a gamer" regardless, and there's rarely call to specify that you're referring to a woman (particularly since if I recall, statistically slightly more women play games than men in the first place). Just say, "all the other women from my gaming group agree that ____" or "what? Every woman I know is into RPGs," or "oh yeah, I play a ton of ____."

Project Manager

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The only actual, non-strawman door-holding situation I've ever been offended by was when I held the door for a guy behind me who was carrying a large, heavy box. He refused to walk through it, because, and I quote, "It's not appropriate for a woman to hold the door for a man."

So I told him, "You don't get to decide what is or isn't appropriate for me," and kicked down the doorstop so the door stayed open, and went on my merry way. If he wanted to set down his box, un-door-stop the door, let it shut, and then re-open it, pick up his box, and struggle through the doorway, just so he wouldn't have to walk through a door I'd held for him, that was his time wasted.

Liberty's Edge

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I generally hold doors open for everyone regardless of things like gender. Never had a problem. I suppose if I did have an issue, I'd mention that I do it for everyone.

This seems a reasonable strategy to avoid offending most people (not that I do it for that reason, but y'know, it works for that).

The Exchange

Using "door holding" as a proxy for any of the rituals between men and women, I think it should be obvious what they are. A social code, an API of sorts if you will, that instruct men and women (especially strangers) how they should behave towards each other. Like many other traditions, they are relics from older times where they were perhaps justifiable. If the alternative is men taking women in the street (as still happens in large swaths of the world), then it might just be better to teach them that women need arms to lean against and help getting off carriages and doors held open. Just like the moral codes of the Abrahamic religions, these customs were a great thing in their time and a rusting anchor holding back true equality in modern times. Their power to root themselves deep into the culture made them into such effective tools to lessen violence and chaos in older days, but also makes departing from them difficult. I can't really see why anyone would be offended personally by a door holding - I can see however, why the reminder of the existence of the phenomenon can be aggravating.

As to the question of the OP - I'm a male and so not fully qualified to answer, but I have to say that my opinion on the matter is split. On the one hand, is is a gendered term that implies that the default of gamer is a male (which, in certain contexts, may unfortunately make sense. In MTG for example, male players outnumber female ones by a couple order of magnitudes, for no apparent reason beyond inertia), but there's nothing inherently offensive about it. It is not a slur and doesn't really have any single hurtful component. I think its one of those cases where "in an ideal world" where there isn't any prejudice the term is probably fine, but it runs too close to the line to be used safely in the real world. Among friends, I think it can be perfectly acceptable.


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RDM42 wrote:
What I find annoying is the assumption that pretty much every word out of someone's mouth has to be micro analyzed to see if it's possible it might be offensive to someone, somewhere. I get it, you don't want to purposely be rude or nasty to people, cool. But for the love of Pete, sometimes a cigar is only a cigar and sometimes people only mean what they literally say and aren't doing hidden coded subtexts.

The essence of functioning in polite society is in giving measure and consideration to one's own speech and manners, it involves making that extra effort. There are reasons why the subject of etiquette takes up books.

The fact of the matter is that all of us have grown up in a prejudiced, racist, sexist, misogynist, society that has shaped our backgrounds, even in our unconcious patterns of thought. Just like becoming physically fit, becoming socially fit involves deliberate exercise and discipline. There are no short cuts.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord Snow wrote:
In MTG for example, male players outnumber female ones by a couple order of magnitudes, for no apparent reason beyond inertia)

I don't doubt your assertion for MTG players overall, but I've noticed that there's an age component to your observation. It's been my experience (as a customer at five FLGSs in two countries) that MTG players age 20-ish+ tend to be overwhelmingly male, while the younger players appear to be split nearly 50-50. Purely anecdotal, but I like the thought that MTG might be expanding its audience demographics :)


Jessica Price wrote:

The only actual, non-strawman door-holding situation I've ever been offended by was when I held the door for a guy behind me who was carrying a large, heavy box. He refused to walk through it, because, and I quote, "It's not appropriate for a woman to hold the door for a man."

So I told him, "You don't get to decide what is or isn't appropriate for me," and kicked down the doorstop so the door stayed open, and went on my merry way. If he wanted to set down his box, un-door-stop the door, let it shut, and then re-open it, pick up his box, and struggle through the doorway, just so he wouldn't have to walk through a door I'd held for him, that was his time wasted.

I find this hilarious because just the other week I was leaving the liquor store with a six pack in each hand (this is a story in which I am very, very classy looking, okay) and I had to stand next to the door waiting for an elderly woman with a single bottle of wine to process the concept that my male gender wasn't going to magic the door open for her. I certainly didn't take an insult once she realized, though I'm honestly not sure I bothered to thank her at that point.


Use your feet.


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Regarding the label . . .

I have been identified as girl since I was born and at no time have I decided that people should cease identifying me as a girl and begin to identify me as a woman instead. The terms girl and woman are pretty interchangeable for me for females in my age bracket, below it and about up to my mother's age bracket. I'd refer to Venerable females, around my grandmother's age bracket, as women, but I imagine many of them, not all, would refer to themselves as girls.

Becoming a gamer hasn't affected the label girl for me.

I have been identified as a gamer for about 5 years and started self-identifying as a gamer about 3 years ago. The label gamer didn't bother me when it was applied, I just felt that it was incorrect. I didn't play enough to self-identify as a gamer. Now I do.

I wouldn't introduce myself as a gamer girl any more (or less) than I'd introduce myself as a girl or a gamer. IF it's not obvious, I don't suppose it's that important.

I don't take umbrage when someone refers to me by the label gamer girl, anymore than I'd be upset if and when people call me a girl or a gamer. Not sure if I really self-identify that way or not. I'm a girl who games, thus I have a hard time finding anything wrong with the label gamer girl. If anything, it reminds me of Felicia Day, who I think is pretty cool.

If I found out that someone didn't care to be labeled as gamer girl, I would avoid labeling them as such, but remain unmotivated to drop the term from my vocabulary just because it displeases some.

Regarding doors . . . I hold them open for people (including gamers and girls) all of the time. It's polite. I'm pleasantly surprised when people hold them for me. It's polite and I thank them for it.

The Exchange

CrusaderWolf wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
In MTG for example, male players outnumber female ones by a couple order of magnitudes, for no apparent reason beyond inertia)
I don't doubt your assertion for MTG players overall, but I've noticed that there's an age component to your observation. It's been my experience (as a customer at five FLGSs in two countries) that MTG players age 20-ish+ tend to be overwhelmingly male, while the younger players appear to be split nearly 50-50. Purely anecdotal, but I like the thought that MTG might be expanding its audience demographics :)

I really hope this is how things are in the U.S. In Israel, this is still very much a male club. Last week, a big tournament broke a historical record by having an impressive female attendance: a whole two women turned up, doubling the previous record. It's a small enough community that I actually kind of know almost everybody, and I am aware of exactly two female players in the entire country, including all the kids I saw.

And I really can't blame any one or any thing for that. Magic is one of the most inclusive hobbies I've ever seen. Females are fairly represented on the cards, in the stories, in the art. Wizards Of The Coast hire female commentators and female game designers and female writers for their website. They highlight female players and podcasters. The effort strikes me as genuine and good intentioned, well executed and level headed in a world often dominated by hyperbolic and aggressive hysteria on those subject matters.

And yet, it seems to not work. I find that upsetting, and I truly do hope things are different in other areas of the world.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
I generally hold doors open for everyone regardless of things like gender. Never had a problem. I suppose if I did have an issue, I'd mention that I do it for everyone.

Yeah, I hold it for everyone. If someone has an issue I just go about my business. I did have one time when I was going to my apartments front office to pick up a package and the woman who worked there walked up a couple of steps behind me. I held the door for her and when she got my package she went pretty out of her way to roll her hand out in such a way that her wedding ring was very obvious. I think that is the only time anyone has ever interpreted it as me not just being polite though.

lazuilswc wrote:
The terms girl and woman are pretty interchangeable for me for females in my age bracket, below it and about up to my mother's age bracket. I'd refer to Venerable females, around my grandmother's age bracket, as women, but I imagine many of them, not all, would refer to themselves as girls.

This reminded me of a neat experience I had a few years ago. I often talk to the radio when no one else is around (I know, that's kind of weird...), so if a commercial says, "Did you know..." I will sometimes say out loud things like, "No, I didn't know that!" One morning I was stocking things at the store I worked out. The store had just unlocked the doors but I was still in it's early and we haven't opened yet mode. I don't remember what the radio said, something about girls, and I replied, "I'm not a girl anymore, I'm a woman now." There was an elderly woman on the other side of the table in the center of the isle that I hadn't seen because she was shorter that the items on the table. She peaked around the table and told me, "Honey, you stay a girl as long as you want to." That memory always makes me smile.


Hitdice wrote:


I find this hilarious because just the other week I was leaving the liquor store with a six pack in each hand (this is a story in which I am very, very classy looking, okay) and I had to stand next to the door waiting for an elderly woman with a single bottle of wine to process the concept that my male gender wasn't going to magic the door open for her. I certainly didn't take an insult once she realized, though I'm honestly not sure I bothered to thank her at that point.

I have had similar experiences. I figure there's a generation of women, now on the older side, that became accustomed to being on the receiving end of this sort of courtesy and never really learned to be aware of times when they should give it. I've had older women cut in front of me while I've been carrying large boxes (though the older men they were with were quite deferential) and look right at me while they let doors close in front of me while I pushed a baby in a stroller.

Thankfully, this is behavior I don't often see in either men or women of younger generations - except for kids who usually don't have that situational awareness developed yet.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
I generally hold doors open for everyone regardless of things like gender. Never had a problem.

I used to hold doors open for everyone until a tailgaiter stole a bunch of laptops from our office...


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Sundakan wrote:
Use your feet.

Kick the doorknob off. Use your feet. Be Am Barbarian. Charge door down. Be hero.

Everyone holds doors open for everyone in my town. We don't go to enormous trouble over it, but if you're passing through a door, you hold it. I'm glad this is slowly ceasing to be a gender issue and just be a sort of nice courtesy to everyone.

Liberty's Edge

Neriathale wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
I generally hold doors open for everyone regardless of things like gender. Never had a problem.
I used to hold doors open for everyone until a tailgaiter stole a bunch of laptops from our office...

Well, I'm rarely in a position to hold open a door that's normally locked. I might be disinclined to hold such a door open for people for precisely this reason. If I thought of it anyway...


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Use your feet.

Kick the doorknob off. Use your feet. Be Am Barbarian. Charge door down. Be hero.

Everyone holds doors open for everyone in my town. We don't go to enormous trouble over it, but if you're passing through a door, you hold it. I'm glad this is slowly ceasing to be a gender issue and just be a sort of nice courtesy to everyone.

AM SHAMED BOTH BY KOBOLD TOWN AM MORE COURTEOUS AND CLEAVER AM BETTER BARBARIAN.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Use your feet.

Kick the doorknob off. Use your feet. Be Am Barbarian. Charge door down. Be hero.

Everyone holds doors open for everyone in my town. We don't go to enormous trouble over it, but if you're passing through a door, you hold it. I'm glad this is slowly ceasing to be a gender issue and just be a sort of nice courtesy to everyone.

What kind of liquor store has a door with a doorknob? It's not smart business to provide a significant obstacle to overcome just to get in and out. Push/pull signs are already pushing it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sundakan wrote:


What kind of liquor store has a door with a doorknob? It's not smart business to provide a significant obstacle to overcome just to get in and out. Push/pull signs are already pushing it.

It IS smart to use that as a quick sobriety check, though.

If one's incoming customers are being challenged by a doorknob, that's generally a good indication that they probably should not be partaking of one's adult wares...

Dark Archive

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Everyone holds doors open for everyone in my town. We don't go to enormous trouble over it, but if you're passing through a door, you hold it. I'm glad this is slowly ceasing to be a gender issue and just be a sort of nice courtesy to everyone.

Holding doors open for people is normal behaviour where I live. It has nothing to do with gender, and happily I've never been complimented for being a gentleman / criticised for being a sexist pig over it.

Dark Archive

Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:
also see a big difference between "We want an occasional boys/girls night out, without the other gender, regardless of activity" and "We want to keep this activity as a boys/girls thing giving you no chance to join in."
A difference of degree only, not of kind, I'm afraid. Telling "that kind of person" that they only have to ride in the back of the bus occasionally, during busy hours, is still discrimination; telling someone "we don't want your kind in here today, but tomorrow is fine" is still gatekeeping.

Then the term "gatekeeping" is so broad as to be all but meaningless, since it apparently covers both having a boys or girls night out which the excluded parties consider it perfectly acceptable and even beneficial, and attempting to drive women out of gaming.

To take the film "Invictus" as an example, telling Morgan Freeman that whilst he was being considered for the part of Nelson Mandella he would not be considered for the role of Francois Pienaar is racial (and probably age) discrimination. However it would be neither useful nor appropriate to bring this up in a general discussion about racism.


Yeah, under those circumstances such colleges were definitely an immense asset.

Nowadays though, that's just racial exclusion and not something anybody should be participating in.


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In other news, we are MASSIVELY off topic; perhaps if we wish to continue this discussion we should start a new thread?

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