[Forrestfire Studios] A new company, a unique casting class, and more


Product Discussion

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Hi! My name is Forrest Heck. If you’re familiar with Dreamscarred Press, you might recognize me as one of their creative directors, the design lead for Psionics Augmented: Occult, and a writer/public face/playtest runner (including Path of War: Expanded and Divergent Paths: Fool's Errand) on here and other forums.

I could just continue to copy-paste a large message from the link I'm about to give, but that seems lazy, so... To cut to the chase here: thanks to some complications in my personal life, I'm not actively working with DSP right now. However, I've still got a lot of ideas, and I'm here to unleash them on any poor fools who're willing to take a look.

So, in light of not having the time to spend working on DSP, I've recently set up a way of producing 3pp content at my own pace. Forrestfire Studios (which is right now just me) is going to be making one product each month, writing up things that range from classes to new subsystems to variant rulesets and even potentially PDFs full of feats and the like.

Right now, I've got one such product up for public viewing, a 5-level arcane spellcaster called the spellburst savant. Instead of having the spell progression of a more full caster, this class has the ability to spontaneously apply metamagic feats at a scaling discount, among some other abilities for customizing their spells on the fly. This project is mostly finished, though it's getting balance tweaks every so often as playtest feedback comes in, and will remain free for view and use indefinitely (later projects will have their final versions compiled and put up for sale, as noted on the Patreon's page).

There's a list of upcoming projects on the Patreon page, which include a Pathfinderized warlock with a psychic/occult bent, a variant mounted combat system, new tech and mecha rules, Path of War initiation stuff, and more. Each month, patrons get to vote on what I should write next; my current project is the warlock, which should be ready for playtesting sometime in mid-October.

I'm happy to take any questions, playtest feedback, or comments here, on the Patreon, or in any other channels you might have access to me (there's not a thread on Giant in the Playground because of their rules against linking Patreons and the bulk of this stuff being based out of there, but I'll be happy to respond to PMs over there as well).

Thanks for taking a look, and I hope you enjoy.


Someday I shall back you

Liberty's Edge

I love the class, it looks awesome (I happen to be especially fond of dabblers and tinkerers, so this is perfect for me).

I am curious... is there any specific reason you made some of the Fundamental-focused abilities into alternate class features instead of class feats? I like the idea of the mini-archetypes that alternate class features can be, but it doesn't seem like the ones that only replace one bonus feat are needed when the feat system should work just fine. Plus, that leaves design space open later on for another class (or PrC) that uses Spell Nova and/or Fundamentals to get use out of them without having to have their own alternate class features.


A Metamagic Mastery class? I am VERY interested. XD


JRutterbush wrote:

I love the class, it looks awesome (I happen to be especially fond of dabblers and tinkerers, so this is perfect for me).

I am curious... is there any specific reason you made some of the Fundamental-focused abilities into alternate class features instead of class feats? I like the idea of the mini-archetypes that alternate class features can be, but it doesn't seem like the ones that only replace one bonus feat are needed when the feat system should work just fine. Plus, that leaves design space open later on for another class (or PrC) that uses Spell Nova and/or Fundamentals to get use out of them without having to have their own alternate class features.

The fundamental-focused ACFs waffled between feats and alternate class features during testing and writing of more material (if you check the version number, this is version 42 right now; it's been being playtested for a while now, I just hadn't had a chance to post here), but the eventual decision was to make them ACFs because of a couple reasons.

Firstly, I didn't want them coming online as fast as feats do; some of them are decent for level 2+ but feel way out of line as a level 1 at-will effect. I also wanted to slow the pace that they could be stocked up on—if they were feats, a human might pick up 3 by level 2 (if they were available as class bonus feats), and a 4th by level 3. Someone else would only be one feat behind. This wasn't ideal in testing, so they were placed as ACFs on the even levels to keep people from getting multiples particularly fast.

In addition, since Nova Spell and the fundamentals are each potentially very powerful abilities, I eventually decided that I would not be making any more material that accesses them, or at least these versions. I had initially toyed with a Prestige Class and some archetypes that used these concepts, but if anyone remembers stuff like the Incantatrix from 3.5, you'll know how broken free metamagic can get if it's not written extremely carefully.

If someone else were to adapt this content to their own products, they might alter it, but for the purposes of my own work, Nova Spell is unique to the Spellburst Savant's mechanics and identity, and potentially game-breaking on the wrong chassis.

Reviewman wrote:
Someday I shall back you

Thanks! In the meantime, I hope you enjoy what I put up.

GM Rednal wrote:
A Metamagic Mastery class? I am VERY interested. XD

Glad you like the idea. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

Liberty's Edge

Forrestfire wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Stuff.
Other stuff.

Okay, that makes sense.

Anyway, I'm gonna get a change to play a Savant in an upcoming game (I'm going with a melee build using Wave Form Strike and a big hammer, plus Stone Giant's Girdle for extra survivability). Sadly, it might be a little bit before the game gets going, but I'll be sure to post my thoughts once I've had a chance to see it in action.


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I am backing you! so far I like what I've seen. no real feedback yet beyond: keep up the good work!


So i just stumbled onto this class and.. first read through, i have to say, i love it. the ability to breakdown and modify magic the way they do has makes me intrigued compared to other stuff i have seen.

im a bit confused on the Fundamental spells, but in all honesty after reading the Bullet Storm with Starspray im loving just the idea of running a standard one and blasting up a room. im not entirely sure how many times per day we get to cast the fundamental, but the substitutions really are neat in general. barrier melding, vital strike linking... just plain sweet.

but what has me a bit giddy is the Gun Witch. almost reminds me of Marisa Kirisame. i love the gun synergy here, which it seems like you can add on intriguing effects based on the moment, and feat selection. it has all the makings of what i want in a ranged class- plus it maintains spells very well! this is definitely something i like- the arts a great touch as well.


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Bdrone wrote:

So i just stumbled onto this class and.. first read through, i have to say, i love it. the ability to breakdown and modify magic the way they do has makes me intrigued compared to other stuff i have seen.

im a bit confused on the Fundamental spells, but in all honesty after reading the Bullet Storm with Starspray im loving just the idea of running a standard one and blasting up a room. im not entirely sure how many times per day we get to cast the fundamental, but the substitutions really are neat in general. barrier melding, vital strike linking... just plain sweet.

but what has me a bit giddy is the Gun Witch. almost reminds me of Marisa Kirisame. i love the gun synergy here, which it seems like you can add on intriguing effects based on the moment, and feat selection. it has all the makings of what i want in a ranged class- plus it maintains spells very well! this is definitely something i like- the arts a great touch as well.

... So, it turns out that I forgot to say how often they're used. Fundamentals are at-will. They were cantrips in an earlier version, but got shifted to stagger how many you got at once, and to make it more clear that these are a core class feature limited to Spellburst Savants, rather than "just" special cantrips. I've just uploaded a fixed version.

I'm glad you like the class, hope you enjoy!


Thank you for the clarification. it is definitely a class i want to use. with the normal version im already focusing on a starspray centric character. Gun Witch? well, just plain fun times because of what it does in general. I may not work with magic much, but the metamagic and even general spell breakdown and manipulation is impressive as is. i can arcane cast in armor if I want to change out somatics or circumvent certain other situation. oh no, can't vocalize? change it.

and then i noticed you can even trapfind with this class, while doing everything ELSE i want. cheering now!


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The warlock has been done and done and done.

There may not be much interest in another warlock.

Sorry.


scary harpy wrote:

The warlock has been done and done and done.

There may not be much interest in another warlock.

Sorry.

Which is true, but irrelevant since the class has as much in common with a warlock as any other short list spellcasting class.

I like the class a lot, but of course it's power is extremely dependent on the number of metamagic feats allowed in the campaign. You already explicitly exclude Dazing Spell, but this might not be the only problematic metamagic feat.


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scary harpy wrote:

The warlock has been done and done and done.

There may not be much interest in another warlock.

Sorry.

It was chosen by vote, so there's at least some interest.

Liberty's Edge

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scary harpy wrote:
The warlock has been done and done and done.

The problem is that, while the Warlock has been "done and done and done", it still hasn't been done well. And given what I've seen from DSP and Forrest, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing her take on it.

Liberty's Edge

I do have a question regarding Blockade, just to clarify something: is the "block" an actual block, or a plane? A lot of the wording around Blockade implies that it would be a cubic block that you place in a space within range, but other details (calling it a 5x5 block rather than a 5x5x5 block, for example, and the reference to Wall of Force) would seem to indicate that it's actually a plane. Could the language on this be cleared up a bit, perhaps, to make it more obvious which one it's supposed to be?

Also, if it is a plane, there should be wording about having to decide which specific facing of the space you place it in that it occupies.


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JRutterbush wrote:
scary harpy wrote:
The warlock has been done and done and done.
The problem is that, while the Warlock has been "done and done and done", it still hasn't been done well. And given what I've seen from DSP and Forrest, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing her take on it.

Hmm. Mayhap the designers of the Ethermancer or the Thaumaturge or the Warloghe might take exception to your characterisation that they were not "done well".

There's always room for one more go...

Silver Crusade

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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
scary harpy wrote:
The warlock has been done and done and done.
The problem is that, while the Warlock has been "done and done and done", it still hasn't been done well. And given what I've seen from DSP and Forrest, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing her take on it.

Hmm. Mayhap the designers of the Ethermancer or the Thaumaturge or the Warloghe might take exception to your characterisation that they were not "done well".

There's always room for one more go...

Speaking as the author of the Thau, I can EASILY say that Forrest can do a better job than I did. That was really into my design life, and I'd probably revise it a lot if the chance ever came up (spoiler alert: it won't, I'm too busy with other jazz).

I've seen the early work Forrest has done on the class and it beats what I wrote by a country mile, so I'm REALLY excited to see what she comes up with for this class when it's all finished.


closest thing to vanila warlock ı know is witch fire witch arch type and its close but no cigar if some one wants to make warlock right please just update the bastard not try to get mimic it with other classes

Liberty's Edge

I just had another thought: I'm a huge fan of Words of Power (and I really wish there was more support for it, but that's beside the point). Would it work to allow Nova Spell to apply to the level increases of the Boost effects, or would that be too much? Most of them are just minor metamagic-like increases, after all, but there might be some specific Boost effects that get too powerful because of this...


scary harpy wrote:

The warlock has been done and done and done.

There may not be much interest in another warlock.

Sorry.

That's fair. Overall, it was put on my list of projects because it was something I personally want to write, since while there's plenty of not!Warlocks in Pathfinder, I have my own ideas for it that people don't seem to have done yet. It was also voted in by my Patrons, so there's at least some demand. I hope you take a look at it once it's up for playtesting, but I can understand not being interested.

I'm looking to get an initial preview packet up by the end of this week (or maybe earlier), so maybe see it for yourself once that arrives :)

Maxxx wrote:

Which is true, but irrelevant since the class has as much in common with a warlock as any other short list spellcasting class.

I like the class a lot, but of course it's power is extremely dependent on the number of metamagic feats allowed in the campaign. You already explicitly exclude Dazing Spell, but this might not be the only problematic metamagic feat.

That's true, though it'll still be playable and useful even with just the core metamagic feats (in particular, Heighten, Quicken, Empower, and Maximize are the big ones to look into). In writing the class, I went through the list of every metamagic feat in Pathfinder to find if there were any particularly iffy ones; thus far, only Dazing Spell has been a problem (and what a problem it was. That feat is silly).

JRutterbush wrote:

I do have a question regarding Blockade, just to clarify something: is the "block" an actual block, or a plane? A lot of the wording around Blockade implies that it would be a cubic block that you place in a space within range, but other details (calling it a 5x5 block rather than a 5x5x5 block, for example, and the reference to Wall of Force) would seem to indicate that it's actually a plane. Could the language on this be cleared up a bit, perhaps, to make it more obvious which one it's supposed to be?

Also, if it is a plane, there should be wording about having to decide which specific facing of the space you place it in that it occupies.

It's a 5x5x5 cube. My bad on the wording; I'll fix that in the next update. Thanks for the catch.

JRutterbush wrote:
I just had another thought: I'm a huge fan of Words of Power (and I really wish there was more support for it, but that's beside the point). Would it work to allow Nova Spell to apply to the level increases of the Boost effects, or would that be too much? Most of them are just minor metamagic-like increases, after all, but there might be some specific Boost effects that get too powerful because of this...

I'm not super familiar with Words of Power; I'll look into it when I get the chance to see if I want to write something for working with that system.


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Words of Power is interesting, but was never fleshed out the way it needed to be in order to be truly useful as a system. A proper version of it would be all kinds of neat.


I really like this class, but after a quick look a few things bug me:

Blockade: This is really cool but it counting as wall of force is a bit much. Perhaps make it a bit more like the Kineticist's Kinetic Cover ability, "the cover has hardness 0, AC 5, and 2 hit points per kineticist level you possess"

Kaizo Blockade: This really shouldn't exist, effectively you can negate at least one creatures actions a turn with no save or anyway for that creature to avoid it. Yoku Master has similar issues, allowing you to box someone in and still have the rest of your turn to do stuff.

P.S. Catastrophic Spell is great, completely impracticable but super cool.


Amosine wrote:

I really like this class, but after a quick look a few things bug me:

Blockade: This is really cool but it counting as wall of force is a bit much. Perhaps make it a bit more like the Kineticist's Kinetic Cover ability, "the cover has hardness 0, AC 5, and 2 hit points per kineticist level you possess"

Well, blockade has a couple core differences from kinetic cover. Unlike kinetic cover,, you can never place it directly between creatures (there’s no unoccupied space to do so), it doesn’t let you build it up over multiple setup rounds (kinetic cover is quite good to fortify an area), if you don't Nova Spell it, it'll only give you normal cover against anyone who can move, and, most importantly, it shuts down your allies and you as well. Kinetic cover is one-way total cover, specifically only from the direction of the face you picked. You can freely attack through it if you’re aether or water element (it’s transparent).

Blockade is good, yes, but it lacks the sheer asymmetrical power of the kineticist’s version.

Amosine wrote:
Kaizo Blockade: This really shouldn't exist, effectively you can negate at least one creatures actions a turn with no save or anyway for that creature to avoid it. Yoku Master has similar issues, allowing you to box someone in and still have the rest of your turn to do stuff.

It's very hard to truly box someone in; you need quite a few blocks to do that, and bigger creatures can always squeeze through (or attack through). However, that’s a fair point, I could see reducing the number of extra blocks gained (to 5 total; 1 + 1 at nova rank 2/4/6/8) so it’s impossible to completely box someone in, even at the max rank with Yoku Master.

For Kaizo Blockade, I’m not sure I agree. Yes, it’s good, but it does not negate a creature’s actions. You can give yourself cover against a ranged attack or effect (sometimes total cover if you have enough blocks), and potentially stop a creature’s charge, but it’s useless against someone already in melee with you, and can’t stop someone from moving around it once it’s placed. Likewise, it won’t protect from many area effects (particularly breath weapons) unless you completely box yourself in. Compare emergency force sphere which comes online at a similar level at a much cheaper cost, and protects you completely for multiple rounds. Or martial counters from Path of War, which will more consistently negate actions and protect you against more enemies.

It also requires you to have actively sandbagged your abilities by not using a Nova Spell on your last turn.

I think that Kaizo Blockade is mostly fine, though I think I am going to install a Reflex save to move through it if it’s place in front of your movement. Its original draft version included this and I had decided to err on the side of not having it, but I can see it causing problems.
What are your thoughts on these changes?

Amosine wrote:
P.S. Catastrophic Spell is great, completely impracticable but super cool.

Heh, glad you like it. It's one of those ridiculous options that's near-impossible to use well, but great fun when it works.


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Poking in to say that I've uploaded a new version of the Spellburst Savant (v44), which includes some typo fixes, some clarifications (such as Spellburst Meditant critical hits), and nerfs to blockade and Kaizo Blockade.


*Downloads the update* This is definitely something I want to stay on top of. XD

Liberty's Edge

Another interaction that probably needs clarification is Familiar Spell, which Spell Nova would make free at 7th level. This is another one that, depending on how you look at it, might be a bit powerful if allowed to be used unchecked... with no level adjustment, you can load your familiar up with quite a few spells. I don't see any immediate abuse other than having one of the most useful familiars ever, but I've never had much of an eye for optimization, so it probably at least bears looking at.

One clarification that'll be pretty important is whether or not any other metamagic added via Spell Nova stays on the spell. If I make a Maximized Empowered Familiar Fireball at higher levels, do I get a familiar that can cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball?


Familiar Spell doesn't work like a normal metamagic feat. It's procced on preparing the spell, and in fact explicitly states that you can't spontaneously use the metamagic feat. It's not usable with Nova Spell by default, and doesn't actually interact (as such, you can't give Nova'd spells to your familiar, since that ability is used when you cast the spell, not prepare it).

Liberty's Edge

Forrestfire wrote:
Familiar Spell doesn't work like a normal metamagic feat. It's procced on preparing the spell, and in fact explicitly states that you can't spontaneously use the metamagic feat. It's not usable with Nova Spell by default, and doesn't actually interact (as such, you can't give Nova'd spells to your familiar, since that ability is used when you cast the spell, not prepare it).

Is there errata or something for this then? I'm going off of the PFSRD's page, here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/familiar-spell-metamagic

It makes allowance for spontaneous casters to use it, and has no language about not being able to be applied spontaneously.


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After going back and rereading it, I think that I may have misread how it works. I'm not actually 100% sure here.

Quote:

Benefit: You can transfer a prepared spell to your familiar, allowing the familiar to cast that spell at a later time. Variables that rely on caster level function according to your caster level, not your familiar's Hit Dice, though your familiar's Intelligence may influence how precisely it can follow your instructions on how to use these spells.

...

A familiar spell uses up a spell slot 3 levels higher than the spell's actual level. Your familiar can store a number of spell levels (including this modifier) equal to your caster level, but no spell's adjusted level can exceed half your caster level.

Special: If you are a spontaneous caster, you must select a specific spell with which to imbue your familiar; you cannot imbue your familiar with an open spell slot.

It... Actually seems to be nonfunctional, by RAW, for spontaneous casters. You can't prepare a spell to transfer, even though there's a Special line that tries to allow it.

What I'm going to do is just adjust how it interacts with Nova Spell, like with Echoing Spell. Expect something for it in the next update, and in the meantime: no, it doesn't work like that (if you use Familiar Spell with Nova Spell, the most likely result is that your familiar gets the unaugmented spell).

EDIT: I've updated it. If you use Familiar Spell to give a spell to your familiar, they get the spell without any Nova Spell effects, just like with Echoing Spell's echo.

Liberty's Edge

Forrestfire wrote:
Familiar Spell stuff.

Cool. That still lets me have some fun by filling my Familiar with low-level spells and having an awesome companion. And thanks for responding to all the questions and issues so quickly, too.


Good to see some free savantly spellbursting playtest stuff. ;)

Verdant Wheel

I'm having trouble trying to access this.

Looks super cool btw!


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... I just realized that my most recent upload exported only the first page of the document. I'm a moron and didn't check. I've fixed it now; try the link again.

Liberty's Edge

RE: Spheres of Power
Will there be anything tying this in with the system? A Spherecasting archetype, for example, even if it's just the usual "Replace spells with sphere stuff and that's it.", just to have something official. I love SoP, and if you've already got permission to mention it, I figure there's at least a chance for an official cross-over, yeah?


I just built a character with this class and will be playing her over the weekend. Great stuff.

Verdant Wheel

Definitely interested to see what you will do with the Cleric. How are you going to avoid using Golarian gods while still enabling your Unchained Cleric to substitute for the Core Cleric?

Also, making Mounts essentially additional "abilities" for their rider sounds like a great starting axiom for how to handle mounted combat.

Liberty's Edge

rainzax wrote:
Definitely interested to see what you will do with the Cleric. How are you going to avoid using Golarian gods while still enabling your Unchained Cleric to substitute for the Core Cleric?

All you'd really have to do is tie abilities to domains instead of gods, then any setting (including Golarion) that ties certain domains to certain deities will do the rest of the work for you.


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Aaaaaalrighty then. I've got a new thing for anyone watching: a preview of the upcoming warlock port, the Avowed. This 18-page PDF includes the base class and the options needed to play it up until level 10, as well as a single pact: Fiends.

It can be found here.

Feel free to give feedback on this teaser; there'll be more to come about halfway through the month when I have the full book ready for eyes. Many more pacts, ranging from the classic fey and old ones to celestials, hags, inevitables, and weirder stuff like apallies and krakens, several archetypes, and a ton more clauses.

(For the people who've discussed the Spellburst Savant, I'm looking to get some time to respond to that feedback sometime early this week. Been a busy weekend, and I wanted the Avowed ready for its preview sooner rather than later)

Liberty's Edge

Forrestfire wrote:
Warlock stuff.

Oh, clauses like in a contract. I literally just got that, even after having seen the other preview pages you threw up on /tg/.

The Fiendish Pact Sense doesn't specify what you get when you use a move action to concentrate on it. The Pact Sense ability says you can sense specific things, but the actual ability just says that it's a constant detect good, but also that you can concentrate on it as a move action. Since concentration isn't required for a constant effect, concentrating doesn't actually do anything. I'm guessing you're meant to know when there's a non-evil creature within 30 feet of you, but you have to use a move action to pinpoint that creature? If so, it could use some language clarifying this.

Is Temptation meant to allow me to use the first list of spells at-will? It seems like the indebted subtype isn't much of a drawback for being able to become the party's negative status remover, for example (that's pretty ridiculous from a roleplaying perspective, but many players won't care about that). Maybe instead of the (apparently, I could just be misinterpreting) at-will abilities, make it a one-time thing, but give a more granular list of abilities, gaining power over time. For example, it could go:
Level 8 - Atonement, fabricate, restoration
Level 12 - Heal or break enchantment
Level 16 - True creation
Level 20 - Wish
That way, you have the more-accurate flavor of giving away your eternal soul in return for temporal gratification, and you avoid the issue of having a permanent power increase by getting your party to sell you their souls in return for free recover magic forever.

Should Soulreaving Pulse have a "once per 24 hours" clause (heh) on it? Spamming blasts is bound to net a natural 1 on the save soon enough, even against a target at full hit points.

So I don't know how Symbiotic pacts are gonna work, but I'm hoping they don't give the patron too much in raw mechanical benefits, since you'll be able to be the patron for those at 14th level.

I'll take a closer look at the Clauses later. Looks pretty good so far, though. I always have loved a good all-day blaster, too.


Re:constant effects and concentration - concentration in fact is required for constant effects... If they're SLAs (they're just at-will and activated as a swift action). I made the senses supernatural abilities and that created a bit of a hole. I'll make sure to adjust the wording. It's meant to be "constant 1st-round detection", effectively, with concentrating to pinpoint or identify people.

Temptation is, in fact, meant to give you the first list of spells at-will. Being a negative status remover is the intended result of it. I had considered more one-time abilities, but the problem with that is that in many cases, they just stop being useful class features outside of small fluff things.

I'd rather you always be able to "buy" someone's soul to give them benefits when you want to, rather than a one-time more powerful effect. Any party with a prepared divine caster of that level effectively has similar things, and that's just as part of their spells. It's not particularly game-breaking, and doesn't mess with attrition much (it doesn't heal HP). Just helps you negate long-lasting negative status effects that could cause an adventure to grind to a halt.

And yeah, Soulreaving Pulse is spammable. Bear in mind that it is, effectively, just a death effect, that comes online at level 20, on a class whose original claim to fame (in 3.5) was being an AoE debuffer in many cases. There'll be a lot of debuffs to go around by the time you hit 20; Soulreaving Pulse is more of a "flashy, but impractical" option that can end a fight but in many cases you're better off saving it for towards the end.

For Symbiotic pacts, they will give the symbiotic partner some benefits, but for Patronage, one thing to note is that it is not a Symbiotic pact. It's a Patron pact (as noted in the ability); you give them power and get almost nothing in return. There'll be expanded details on how this all works in the final version; effectively, it'll let someone retrain levels into an Avowed of your pact, giving you no real benefit other than whatever they offered you for it.

Liberty's Edge

Forrestfire wrote:

Temptation is, in fact, meant to give you the first list of spells at-will. Being a negative status remover is the intended result of it. I had considered more one-time abilities, but the problem with that is that in many cases, they just stop being useful class features outside of small fluff things.

I'd rather you always be able to "buy" someone's soul to give them benefits when you want to, rather than a one-time more powerful effect. Any party with a prepared divine caster of that level effectively has similar things, and that's just as part of their spells. It's not particularly game-breaking, and doesn't mess with attrition much (it doesn't heal HP). Just helps you negate long-lasting negative status effects that could cause an adventure to grind to a halt.

I dunno, I guess the flavor implications of this just bother me a bit. It seems weird that the first thing a Fiendish Avowed says when joining a group is "Right, everybody give me your immortal souls so I can heal you when you need it." I guess it's not too powerful (in niche situations it can be since Clerics won't have dozens of those spells prepared, but those are niche situations so it's not a big deal), it's just a huge hit to the flavor of something like selling your soul.

Maybe that's just me, though.


Seeing we have celestial pacts is heartening.

I love the chassis, but I don't especially like dark-ish characters. Having someone pacting with a font of goodness could make a great "soldier of light" that is very very different from paladin or cleric. That would be my wish - seeing it support that type of character.


I may have just missed it, but does the Aether Pulse have a specified damage type, or it is untyped? It says as a physical force, so I assume Bludgeon.


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An aether pulse's default is untyped.

JRutterbush wrote:
Forrestfire wrote:

Temptation is, in fact, meant to give you the first list of spells at-will. Being a negative status remover is the intended result of it. I had considered more one-time abilities, but the problem with that is that in many cases, they just stop being useful class features outside of small fluff things.

I'd rather you always be able to "buy" someone's soul to give them benefits when you want to, rather than a one-time more powerful effect. Any party with a prepared divine caster of that level effectively has similar things, and that's just as part of their spells. It's not particularly game-breaking, and doesn't mess with attrition much (it doesn't heal HP). Just helps you negate long-lasting negative status effects that could cause an adventure to grind to a halt.

I dunno, I guess the flavor implications of this just bother me a bit. It seems weird that the first thing a Fiendish Avowed says when joining a group is "Right, everybody give me your immortal souls so I can heal you when you need it." I guess it's not too powerful (in niche situations it can be since Clerics won't have dozens of those spells prepared, but those are niche situations so it's not a big deal), it's just a huge hit to the flavor of something like selling your soul.

Maybe that's just me, though.

Well, what kind of tempter would you be if your response to someone coming back for more was "nope, all out of juice"? The idea is partially that it is simple, useful, and good for the person who sold their soul to be around you. That's how you get them.


Forrestfire wrote:
An aether pulse's default is untyped.

Thanks.

I love your work - I've been really inspired to create character for both the Savant and the Avowed. Keep up the great job.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Aether Circus! Nice...

Liberty's Edge

Forrestfire wrote:

An aether pulse's default is untyped.

JRutterbush wrote:
Forrestfire wrote:

Temptation is, in fact, meant to give you the first list of spells at-will. Being a negative status remover is the intended result of it. I had considered more one-time abilities, but the problem with that is that in many cases, they just stop being useful class features outside of small fluff things.

I'd rather you always be able to "buy" someone's soul to give them benefits when you want to, rather than a one-time more powerful effect. Any party with a prepared divine caster of that level effectively has similar things, and that's just as part of their spells. It's not particularly game-breaking, and doesn't mess with attrition much (it doesn't heal HP). Just helps you negate long-lasting negative status effects that could cause an adventure to grind to a halt.

I dunno, I guess the flavor implications of this just bother me a bit. It seems weird that the first thing a Fiendish Avowed says when joining a group is "Right, everybody give me your immortal souls so I can heal you when you need it." I guess it's not too powerful (in niche situations it can be since Clerics won't have dozens of those spells prepared, but those are niche situations so it's not a big deal), it's just a huge hit to the flavor of something like selling your soul.

Maybe that's just me, though.

Well, what kind of tempter would you be if your response to someone coming back for more was "nope, all out of juice"? The idea is partially that it is simple, useful, and good for the person who sold their soul to be around you. That's how you get them.

Ah, I see... I'm looking at it as "What should you get for trading away your very soul?", while you seem to be more interested in "How can I portray a tempter?"

Maybe if you changed the flavor of the reward you get? Instead of getting their actual soul, could it be some other hold over them? I like the "tempter" idea, it's just the part where people are trading their soul for some minor healing abilities that gets me... your soul is supposed to be a huge deal, even in Pathfinder cosmology. To me, selling your soul is something you do to get a big, one-time reward (returning a loved one to life, infinite riches, a golden fiddle, a donut...), while the temptation path is more about slowly increasing the price as they ask for more... which you can't really do if they've already paid you their soul.

Maybe there could even be levels of temptation, with increasingly powerful things you can do for the target... but increasingly powerful things you can do to them as well. Like you could just get lesser restoration at temptation level 1, but once per day you can cast suggestion on the target, and they're shaken for 24 hours if they succeed on the save or otherwise resist it. At temptation level 2, you get more powerful things you can do for them, but also more powerful abilities you can use to get them to do what you want. Basically increasing your mental control over them the more often they come back to you for healing. That keeps the tempter flavor and the mechanical utility, and avoids the issue of trading away your immortal soul for a 2nd level spell. And it helps the people who aren't willing to roleplay a character just deciding to give this random stranger their soul... they get less healing, but they also don't have to worry as much about what happens if the avowed decides to turn on them, since they're not as deeply in their sway as the rest of the party.

That might be a bit too complex, though, keeping track of each victim's temptation levels...

Either way, it's your class, and if I have a minor quibble over the flavor of one of the abilities, I'll get over it. It still looks pretty awesome otherwise.


...and that makes 2 very intriguing classes.

While ive not yet had a chance to mess with Spellburst Savant, it has changed my thoughts on magic a tad with how it works, and it still makes me giddy to think about. But now we also have the Avowed.

I really like this style of class, and this angle of it is intriguing to me. i hope to see a lot of Pacts- because the way they modify the character in question i find intriguing if they will progress in ways like the Fiend pact we have here.

making the shapes have multiple tiers based on selection was an angle I really liked, as well as splitting the shapes up from the clauses and moving what appears to be modulations there. while the clauses felt about right when i read them, the shapes are what stole the show for me thus far- there's a number of good ways to modify your blast's vector of use, but being the ranged fan i am, Aether Barrage, Aether circus, Aether Swarm and Aether Rounds in particular stand out. doesn't make me as excited as the Savant did, but i do like this.


I really like how you took the old Warlock structure, made it open or "generic" then fill it back in with specific pacts - so you can have so many flavor options and tone with characters on the same basic structure. This class could be incredibly wide open for options as more and more pacts get published. I am really excited.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I really like the Avowed. Looking forward to more pacts and info!

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