here is what we KNOW :
1. a build that is viable from level 2-3 to 15 .
2. unchained rogue is the leading class.
3. 1-4 levels of shadow dancer (1 is a must, rest is not)
4. no item dependent. we get items but we cant buy them.
5. the classes : slayer, inquisitor, arcanist are banned.
6. i love spring attacks.
7. 25 points buy
so, i want to play a strong melee (i mean, as strong as rogues get) that have ton of skills.
melee : i dont want to role the damage department.
dirty tricks, fear, debuff are a lot better for me than pure damage.
also, adding effects to a single attack (that work on spring attacks > several effects.
so...............
give me your best (worse) ideas.
i am adding some Q's and ideas as well below.
working on the bad sides or rogues:
sneak attacks:
1. we have a strong melee "tank" - so with acrobatics and spring attacks i can get to flanks.
2. i plan on taking scout for sure and mixing it with either thug or rake
so.... every move = sneak . flank = sneak. hide in plain sight = sneak.
low saves:
1. halfling (+1 to all saves)
2. 1/2 elf (better fit as RP ) +4 to charm, +2 all will
3. 1/2 orc with fate's favorite
4. the feat that allow evasion to fort saves.
medium armor or defenses :
1.spring attacks with Hips = i am not there.
2. if 3 levels of shadow dancer - take "offensive defense"
3. with super debuffs, the enemy might miss a lot.
medium HP :
1. FCB is rogue talent 1/6 VS hp.... a dilemma
2. toughness feat.
3. CON of 14 min.
weapon of choice :
i think elven curve blade is the best out there.
1.5 str and power attack to when sneaks are not there.
although getting a magical one will be hard - so daggers might be better.
Dodge
Mobility
Spring attack
Maybe power attack
The feat that allow evasion for fort
Dumpen presence.
Not a lot is open ....
Since you're committing to Spring Attack, you really should take Circling Mongoose.
This is apparently a touchy subject, but since Circling Mongoose allows you to effectively flank with yourself, I would say that you should benefit from the Outflank teamwork feat with yourself as your ally. RAW does support it but Ask Your DM.
Catch-off Guard Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue.
Walk around with two tankards in your hands and a barrel of ale on your back (for cases when you can't full attack and want two-handed weapon).
Benefits:
- Always getting Sneak Attack against monks
- Being able to full-round sneak attack out of invisibility.
- Sneak Attacking on a charge.
- Targets are always flatfooted when unarmed, which means denied Dex. In some cases, that's all they have for AC and most monsters have no weapons.
What it loses out on:
- Being able to enchant your weapons for extra damage.
Given that in cases where you're not able to Sneak Attack, the difference of +5 on your weapons makes little difference. You can technically have your tankards made out of adamantine and other materials, but there's also a point of contention there: The DM has the right to deny you adamantine drinking cups because it sounds stupid.
This is strictly superior to the Feint tree as it requires a single feat to take off and requires no action to activate.
Literally why aren't you beating someone in the face with a mug? It's just better.
Add in some Disarm Tree and you can make the build work against anyone.
Unchained Rogues can't take Offensive Defense. I noticed this myself while building something a few days ago.
Heretek wrote: Unchained Rogues can't take Offensive Defense. I noticed this myself while building something a few days ago. But shadow dancer does.....as a level 3 talent.
Axoren wrote: Catch-off Guard Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue.
Walk around with two tankards in your hands and a barrel of ale on your back (for cases when you can't full attack and want two-handed weapon).
Benefits:
- Always getting Sneak Attack against monks
- Being able to full-round sneak attack out of invisibility.
- Sneak Attacking on a charge.
- Targets are always flatfooted when unarmed, which means denied Dex. In some cases, that's all they have for AC and most monsters have no weapons.
What it loses out on:
- Being able to enchant your weapons for extra damage.
Given that in cases where you're not able to Sneak Attack, the difference of +5 on your weapons makes little difference. You can technically have your tankards made out of adamantine and other materials, but there's also a point of contention there: The DM has the right to deny you adamantine drinking cups because it sounds stupid.
This is strictly superior to the Feint tree as it requires a single feat to take off and requires no action to activate.
Literally why aren't you beating someone in the face with a mug? It's just better.
Add in some Disarm Tree and you can make the build work against anyone.
If only it worked once they do take a weapon out....
Athaleon wrote: Since you're committing to Spring Attack, you really should take Circling Mongoose.
This is apparently a touchy subject, but since Circling Mongoose allows you to effectively flank with yourself, I would say that you should benefit from the Outflank teamwork feat with yourself as your ally. RAW does support it but Ask Your DM.
It is a great feat.
Better if one has 2 weapon fighting and not elven blade. Need a big hefty invest in acrobatics to pull off.
Lets see:
Human Unchained Rogue with Knifemaster and Scout Archtype ( This is only up to lvl9, everything after is up to you )
Two-Weapon Fighting + Dodge
Deific Obedience: Pharasma
Spring Attack
Bookish rogue ( I suppose you can change this for Circling mongoose )
Imp Two-Weapon Fighting
Talents:
Weapon focus: daggers
Bleeding attack
Combat feat: Mobility
Minor Magic ( i took acid splash )
The character i actually used this for. lvl9 and 15pt btw..
So the thing is that you can switch out the dagger specifics for something else and the evangelist levels for Shadowdancer and get basically the same idea.
And the "Glory" part in its class is the "Glory Rogue" from a 3pp called "drop dead studios" that my GM actually told me to use.
Point is that you most likely want lvl 8 rogue before going anywhere to get the sneak attack on movement. So maybe something like uRogue10/Shadowdancer5 to get 1 advanced talent and pick up double debilitation, or go uRogue8/Shadowdancer7 to get sneak attack on your movement.
Added note: Debilitation + Scout + Spring Attack is fun, run up and sneak attack him, reduce his speed and run off. Get haste and/or boots of springing and there ya go.
Happy hunting.
Dracoknight wrote: Lets see:
Human Unchained Rogue with Knifemaster and Scout Archtype ( This is only up to lvl9, everything after is up to you )
Two-Weapon Fighting + Dodge
Deific Obedience: Pharasma
Spring Attack
Bookish rogue ( I suppose you can change this for Circling mongoose )
Imp Two-Weapon Fighting
Talents:
Weapon focus: daggers
Bleeding attack
Combat feat: Mobility
Minor Magic ( i took acid splash )
The character i actually used this for. lvl9 and 15pt btw..
So the thing is that you can switch out the dagger specifics for something else and the evangelist levels for Shadowdancer and get basically the same idea.
And the "Glory" part in its class is the "Glory Rogue" from a 3pp called "drop dead studios" that my GM actually told me to use.
Point is that you most likely want lvl 8 rogue before going anywhere to get the sneak attack on movement. So maybe something like uRogue10/Shadowdancer5 to get 1 advanced talent and pick up double debilitation, or go uRogue8/Shadowdancer7 to get sneak attack on your movement.
Added note: Debilitation + Scout + Spring Attack is fun, run up and sneak attack him, reduce his speed and run off. Get haste and/or boots of springing and there ya go.
Happy hunting.
very very nice. knife master isnt worth it, Rake is a lot better.
it's another "tool" for a price of 5 damage . also, it adds up with the acid bolt .
two weapon fighting is nice indeed. but the low saves worry me. the feat that allow evasion for fort saves is a must - and than only the low will need a hand.
666bender wrote:
very very nice. knife master isnt worth it, Rake is a lot better.
it's another "tool" for a price of 5 damage . also, it adds up with the acid bolt .
two weapon fighting is nice indeed. but the low saves worry me. the feat that allow evasion for fort saves is a must - and than only the low will need a hand.
True, or i just run scout and nothing else, put the extra points from 25 point buy into will, and pick up Iron will later and you have your will saves covered, unless you just go for another race that give you +2 will, or Half-orc with sacred tattoos and fate's favored for a across the board +2 luck to saves.
If anything rolling with Pharasma for your daggers and weapon focus gain you have your to-hits covered and two-weapon fighting penalty zero'd out.
Hell if you want teleportation abilities you can either delay shadowdancer or just go 3 levels of horizon walker and go Astral to get dimension door and then go into the dimensional dervish line instead. ( 3 levels of full BAB ) and Dimension door 3 + WIS each day.
Have you taken a look at the stalker specialization for the vigilante (Ultimate Intrigue)? It has some really nice options aimed at everything you describe; some of which can free up your feat slots.
So I have no idea how this build actually plays, and it replaces the urogue with ninja levels, but it might be somewhere up the right alley.
So it's a unchained monk 5/ninja 5/shadow dancer 3. For abilities you max dex and wis, dump str, get an agile amulet of mighty fists as soon as you can. Until then you might be a bit short on damage if you start monk though... hmm... piranha strike might mitigate some of that.... anyway.
Feats:
1 Piranha strike
1m Dodge
1h Weapon finesse
2m Improved Grapple
3 Mobility(+ 4 ac mot aoo)
5 Spring attack
7 accomplished sneak attacker
9 Weapon focus (unarmed)
11 Shadow strike
13 Sap adept
Additionaly you get the monk flying kick stylestrike and shadow companion to use as a flanker.
So the point with the build is to attack at night, lurking in the shadows and spring attacking until you can get in position to flying kick and fullround attack enemies flanked by the shadow for (hopefully) tonnes of damage.
A Knifemaster/Scout rogue TWF and finesse with daggers one level of shadow dancer for HiPS and d8s for sneak attack on a move of 10ft or more. If you take Piranha strike you don't even need STR. With TWFing and spring attacking it would be tight on the feats not sure if it is possible without actually building it out.
beemer4188 wrote: A Knifemaster/Scout rogue TWF and finesse with daggers one level of shadow dancer for HiPS and d8s for sneak attack on a move of 10ft or more. If you take Piranha strike you don't even need STR. With TWFing and spring attacking it would be tight on the feats not sure if it is possible without actually building it out. oh, i totally agree daggers might be better than a curve blade , not when spring attacking or Vs elemental - but when full attacking... sure.
BUT .... knife master? your minor magic acid bold is now 1d4... and lets take level 10 (9 rogue) , 5d8 Vs 5d6 AND opponent run away (skill unlock intimidate & free rake with SUPER pluses....)
or thug, that can panic & sicken no saves ?
not seeing how 5-10 damage is worth the versatile addons.
666bender wrote: beemer4188 wrote: A Knifemaster/Scout rogue TWF and finesse with daggers one level of shadow dancer for HiPS and d8s for sneak attack on a move of 10ft or more. If you take Piranha strike you don't even need STR. With TWFing and spring attacking it would be tight on the feats not sure if it is possible without actually building it out. oh, i totally agree daggers might be better than a curve blade , not when spring attacking or Vs elemental - but when full attacking... sure.
BUT .... knife master? your minor magic acid bold is now 1d4... and lets take level 10 (9 rogue) , 5d8 Vs 5d6 AND opponent run away (skill unlock intimidate & free rake with SUPER pluses....)
or thug, that can panic & sicken no saves ?
not seeing how 5-10 damage is worth the versatile addons.
Could be that they are not focusing on the minor-magic at all, and just focusing on the main attack which is most likely going to be your TWF-Daggers.
Plus Daggers are used due to the benefit of Deific obendience of Pharasma that gives you +2 sacred to-hit with Daggers, plus you can pick up the River rat trait for +1 damage with daggers.
If anything your "meager" acid splash with 1d4s is hardly going to be used and its more of a "back-up" solution than a main offense... so you optimize your main venue of attack by sacrificing your back-up solutions.
The idea is that if you have to use acid splash to sneak-attack in combat you are doing it wrong, technically its role is similar to why you bring along a bow or a sling.
Also if someone want to go a different route and pick up "underhanded" you could potensially gain +2 damage for every die of sneak attack you have.
Additionally you could go a Eldricht scoundrel and gain more effective spells, but in this setup if you manage to get a sneak attack in you already caught up due to debilitating injury which can reduce movement speed.
666bender wrote: Axoren wrote: Catch-off Guard Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue.
Walk around with two tankards in your hands and a barrel of ale on your back (for cases when you can't full attack and want two-handed weapon).
Benefits:
- Always getting Sneak Attack against monks
- Being able to full-round sneak attack out of invisibility.
- Sneak Attacking on a charge.
- Targets are always flatfooted when unarmed, which means denied Dex. In some cases, that's all they have for AC and most monsters have no weapons.
What it loses out on:
- Being able to enchant your weapons for extra damage.
Given that in cases where you're not able to Sneak Attack, the difference of +5 on your weapons makes little difference. You can technically have your tankards made out of adamantine and other materials, but there's also a point of contention there: The DM has the right to deny you adamantine drinking cups because it sounds stupid.
This is strictly superior to the Feint tree as it requires a single feat to take off and requires no action to activate.
Literally why aren't you beating someone in the face with a mug? It's just better.
Add in some Disarm Tree and you can make the build work against anyone.
If only it worked once they do take a weapon out.... Monsters with natural attacks do not count as unarmed, which can be inferred from the following quote from the Bestiary:
Quote: Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.
Dracoknight wrote: 666bender wrote: beemer4188 wrote: A Knifemaster/Scout rogue TWF and finesse with daggers one level of shadow dancer for HiPS and d8s for sneak attack on a move of 10ft or more. If you take Piranha strike you don't even need STR. With TWFing and spring attacking it would be tight on the feats not sure if it is possible without actually building it out. oh, i totally agree daggers might be better than a curve blade , not when spring attacking or Vs elemental - but when full attacking... sure.
BUT .... knife master? your minor magic acid bold is now 1d4... and lets take level 10 (9 rogue) , 5d8 Vs 5d6 AND opponent run away (skill unlock intimidate & free rake with SUPER pluses....)
or thug, that can panic & sicken no saves ?
not seeing how 5-10 damage is worth the versatile addons.
Could be that they are not focusing on the minor-magic at all, and just focusing on the main attack which is most likely going to be your TWF-Daggers.
Plus Daggers are used due to the benefit of Deific obendience of Pharasma that gives you +2 sacred to-hit with Daggers, plus you can pick up the River rat trait for +1 damage with daggers.
If anything your "meager" acid splash with 1d4s is hardly going to be used and its more of a "back-up" solution than a main offense... so you optimize your main venue of attack by sacrificing your back-up solutions.
The idea is that if you have to use acid splash to sneak-attack in combat you are doing it wrong, technically its role is similar to why you bring along a bow or a sling.
Also if someone want to go a different route and pick up "underhanded" you could potensially gain +2 damage for every die of sneak attack you have.
Additionally you could go a Eldricht scoundrel and gain more effective spells, but in this setup if you manage to get a sneak attack in you already caught up due to debilitating injury which can reduce movement speed.
I agree the minor magic shouldn't be your main offense. It's just an extra tool in your toolbox. TWF with daggers should be your main offense and you should upgrade your main offense as much as you can.
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