Scrolls and Arcane Spell Failure in PFS


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5/5 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells.
There is no way to go from that to requiring the spell class feature. That is not there, that is something you, not the rules, are doing. In non PFS, a druid (not a divine caster) cannot use an arcane scroll of spider climb even though he has the spells class feature, and a wizard cannot use a divine scroll of spider climb (probably written on bark

Per the rule you quoted, someone who wants to activate a scroll must be either an arcane or divine spellcaster, matching the type of the scroll's creator. I think that the "Emulate a Class Feature" is the best fit for when the person who is activating the scroll either has no caster class or has the wrong caster type because the Spells class feature for each class sets their caster type (i.e., a wizard using "Emulate a Class Feature" to emulate a druid's Spells class feature then is able to cast divine spells) and it sets a caster level. Your posts here and on another thread regarding scroll activation appear to me to indicate that your position is that the "Use a Scroll" check sets the caster type and that character level is used for the casting level and I just don't see either of those things in the rules text of "Use a Scroll." To quote, "That is not there, that is something you, not the rules, are doing."

The spell you cited, spider climb, is a good example of why the "Use a Scroll" check doesn't make sense for all checks to activate a scroll - a wizard and a druid both already have the spell on their class list and so the effect of a successful "Use a Scroll" check (adding the spell to their class list) is meaningless. My understanding is that "Use a Scroll" is for when you are of the correct arcane/divine casting type but are casting a spell that is not already in your spell list (a cleric trying to activate a spider climb scroll written by a druid, for example).

The Exchange 2/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
There is no way to go from that to requiring the spell class feature.

Scrolls: "To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it." Someone with a spell list consisting of one spell, just added by a UMD check, is still not a spell caster.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
In non PFS, a druid (a divine caster) cannot use an arcane scroll of spider climb even though he has the spells class feature, and a wizard cannot use a divine scroll of spider climb (probably written on bark) even though he also has the spells class feature.

Could they, by emulating the Spells ability of the appropriate class?

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brock, no the other one... wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
There is no way to go from that to requiring the spell class feature.

Scrolls: "To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it." Someone with a spell list consisting of one spell, just added by a UMD check, is still not a spell caster.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
In non PFS, a druid (a divine caster) cannot use an arcane scroll of spider climb even though he has the spells class feature, and a wizard cannot use a divine scroll of spider climb (probably written on bark) even though he also has the spells class feature.

Could they, by emulating the Spells ability of the appropriate class?

if you feel the need to get pedantic a non spellcaster doesn't need to meet that requirement.

5/5 5/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Pete Winz wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Forth, as far as I can tell, Caster Levels cannot be Emulated by UMD.
Per the PRD: "Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20." That's one of the reasons I feel that for a non-caster, you need to make this check rather than the "Use a Scroll" check (and if the emulated class has the spell on its list, you don't need to make that check at all).
But is that a caster level, or an effective wizard level? Yes, a wizard is a caster, but if I'm just emulating the level of wizard, I don't think it automatically means I have a caster level too. That would be like saying having an effective fighter level of 10 should give me +10 BAB.

For the purposes of activating an arcane scroll, your effective wizard level and your caster level are synonymous. I'm not aware of any items that have a minimum BAB for use, but if one did, I can't think of any other UMD check aside from "Emulate a Class Feature" that could be used to meet the requirement.

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Pete Winz wrote:


Per the rule you quoted, someone who wants to activate a scroll must be either an arcane or divine spellcaster, matching the type of the scroll's creator.

IF they want to "automatically activate the spell without a check."

But this isn't what someone using UMD is doing. This is the problem with taking something from a different section of the rules and trying to apply it to something somewhere else in a very persnickity manner.

Quote:
I think that the "Emulate a Class Feature" is the best fit for when the person who is activating the scroll either has no caster class or has the wrong caster type because the Spells class feature for each class sets their caster type (i.e., a wizard using "Emulate a Class Feature" to emulate a druid's Spells class feature then is able to cast divine spells) and it sets a caster level.

The position you seemed to be taking before was that a wizard casting cure light wounds would not have to emulate a class feature but that a rogue would. You seem to be changing your mind on that here.

Quote:
Your posts here and on another thread regarding scroll activation appear to me to indicate that your position is that the "Use a Scroll" check sets the caster type and that character level is used for the casting level and I just don't see either of those things in the rules text of "Use a Scroll." To quote, "That is not there, that is something you, not the rules, are doing."

It is in the rules. It's just not repeated in a different section of the rules that talks about something else completely.

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

That's it. THOSE are the rules for using a scroll. It doesn't tell you to toss in more checks from other places for more ideas. You already make the caster level check by having the caster level tossed into the DC of the scroll you're reading.

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My understanding is that "Use a Scroll" is for when you are of the correct arcane/divine casting type but are...

It seems to be your understanding alone. Isn't that a bit of a warning sign, especially in a shared campaign?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha

Pete Winz wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Forth, as far as I can tell, Caster Levels cannot be Emulated by UMD.
Per the PRD: "Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20." That's one of the reasons I feel that for a non-caster, you need to make this check rather than the "Use a Scroll" check (and if the emulated class has the spell on its list, you don't need to make that check at all).

Emulate Class Feature is a general use action usable for a wide variety of items.

Use a Scroll is a more specific check that encompasses Emulate Class Feature.

You would never need to make both checks.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
The position you seemed to be taking before was that a wizard casting cure light wounds would not have to emulate a class feature but that a rogue would. You seem to be changing your mind on that here.

What you see as changing my mind is due a discussion regarding the PFS-specific rule that scrolls are not arcane or divine for the purposes of this campaign. Normally, a wizard activating a cleric scroll of cure light wounds would need to emulate a divine caster, but would only need to add the spell to his class list for a bard scroll of cure light wounds. Because PFS says that the scroll is both arcane and divine simultaneously, he only needs to add the spell to his spell list. A rogue has no spellcasting ability and so would need to emulate that.

I am not responding to the rest of your message because it would just involve repeating the same points I've made previously. If you would like me to respond to anything in particular, just let me know.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

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What I'm getting out of this thread so far is I have another character concept that I should just abandon before I take feats that are wasted at a number of tables.

Scarab Sages

Pete Winz wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Pete Winz wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Forth, as far as I can tell, Caster Levels cannot be Emulated by UMD.
Per the PRD: "Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20." That's one of the reasons I feel that for a non-caster, you need to make this check rather than the "Use a Scroll" check (and if the emulated class has the spell on its list, you don't need to make that check at all).
But is that a caster level, or an effective wizard level? Yes, a wizard is a caster, but if I'm just emulating the level of wizard, I don't think it automatically means I have a caster level too. That would be like saying having an effective fighter level of 10 should give me +10 BAB.
For the purposes of activating an arcane scroll, your effective wizard level and your caster level are synonymous. I'm not aware of any items that have a minimum BAB for use, but if one did, I can't think of any other UMD check aside from "Emulate a Class Feature" that could be used to meet the requirement.

The key here is that having a caster level isn't required to activate a scroll. Caster level is NOT synonymous with class level, either. UMD checks don't give you a caster level, they just let you me requirements to activate a magic item.

I've always understood scrolls to be spell casting classes only. In closer reading, looks like scroll can be used by other classes, but it means having a caster level of ZERO and risking a scroll mishap upon use.

I also think this would be covered in the scroll mishap note, if UMD was an intended easy way to bypass the caster level requirement.

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So what about Esoteric Linguistics?

Quote:
Benefit: You can attempt a Linguistics check in place of a Use Magic Device check to activate a scroll, or in place of a Spellcraft check to identify a scroll. You must still have (or emulate) the ability score required to cast a spell of the desired level, and you cannot use Linguistics on the check to emulate the required ability score.

The feat mentions nothing about having to emulate a class ability to use a scroll. Seems odd to me that they would explicitly mention one facet of activating a scroll which you cannot use Linguistics to accomplish, yet be completely silent on another.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Michael Hallet wrote:
What I'm getting out of this thread so far is I have another character concept that I should just abandon before I take feats that are wasted at a number of tables.

No, it's one person with a wonky rules reading. Thats going to happen no matter what you try to do.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
What I'm getting out of this thread so far is I have another character concept that I should just abandon before I take feats that are wasted at a number of tables.
No, it's one person with a wonky rules reading. Thats going to happen no matter what you try to do.

More like, the obscure rules aren't read very often at all. Most GMs won't follow the rules, not because they object, but because they don't know them and don't have time to make sense of them during a session.

In most sessions, you'll probably have a character pick up a scroll they haven't studied, do that DC20+CL UMD check to cast scroll, because after a very quick skimming of the UMD skill, they've concluded that there is only one step required. And this is because most sessions don't use scrolls at all, or exclusively use scrolls for casters that meet all requirements to cast the scroll without UMD.

As for feats related to any overspecialization, understand that it is the overspecialization that creates the issue. Picking some obscure rules mechanic, then making your character unable to function without that particular mechanic working a certain way - that kind of character creation is the problem. Make your character able to function with table varience and you'll be fine.

3/5

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I think the very fact that the Use Scroll umd description mentions that you may require an additional check if your attribute score isn't high enough, but never makes mention of needing to emulate a class ability if you aren't a caster, gives good RAI weight towards not needing that emulate class ability check. The attribute score is a requirement from the scroll use section, and there's no good reason to clarify that that additional check may be needed, but not to specify the class ability emulation as potentially needed, unless it never is.

I further suggest that the fact that the DC for scroll use being based on caster level rather than spell level (such as the one for deciphering a scroll) makes more sense as being explained that it is because you are emulating the caster level as part of that activation roll. Using a cl 5 magic missile scroll instead of a cl 1 magic missile scroll is harder due to needing to meet or beat the cl of a scroll you are using (under normal scroll use), not because the spell is harder to add to your 'spell list', because they're the same spell. That extra difficulty due to requiring the user be of a higher CL is built into the DC of the Use Scroll UMD check. If that implication is true, and the Use Scroll dc is based on emulating that caster level, then it is reasonable that the emulated caster level must be of a type, arcane or divine, as needed for the scroll.

Finally, I think this RAI interpretation continues to be reasonable if you consider the Emulate Class Ability DC, which is 20. What you need to do to use a scroll ability-wise is the arcane/divine casting ability at a certain caster level. A sensible way to do that, and to represent the additional difficulty to mimic higher caster levels, would be to add the caster level desired to the difficulty of emulating an arcane or divine casting ability at all. Doing so would give us a DC of 20 + caster level.... precisely the DC given for Use Scroll.

I think that, particularly in conjunction with one another, these observations give a strong RAI argument for not requiring a separate use of the Emulate Class Ability when using UMD to activate a scroll.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
More like, the obscure rules aren't read very often at all. Most GMs won't follow the rules, not because they object, but because they don't know them and don't have time to make sense of them during a session.

This isn't an obscure rule. Its something from 300 pages away in a different section of the book talking about something completely different.

Quote:
In most sessions, you'll probably have a character pick up a scroll they haven't studied, do that DC20+CL UMD check to cast scroll, because after a very quick skimming of the UMD skill, they've concluded that there is only one step required.

Or after a very thorough reading of the rules you notice that you can take 20 to decipher the scroll with a mere 2 minutes of studying, not enough time to worry about unless you're actively running away from a t rex. And that the other reading that NO ONE USES isn't in the UMD section because it uses a completely different mechanism than UMD.

Decipher the Writing: The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.

Quote:
As for feats related to any overspecialization, understand that it is the overspecialization that creates the issue. Picking some obscure rules mechanic, then making your character unable to function without that particular mechanic working a certain way - that kind of character creation is the problem. Make your character able to function with table varience and you'll be fine.

No. DM's changing the rules is the problem, not someone trying to use a mechanic spelled out in the rules. Using linguistics in place of spellcraft isn't some overpowered gray area, it's what the trait DOES and it's supposed to work.

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
As for feats related to any overspecialization, understand that it is the overspecialization that creates the issue. Picking some obscure rules mechanic, then making your character unable to function without that particular mechanic working a certain way - that kind of character creation is the problem. Make your character able to function with table varience and you'll be fine.

This isn't about overspecialization. Nothing is overspecialized by taking a single feat. By clinging to your argument you are choosing to make Esoteric Linguistics a useless feat. If I have to put resources into pumping up UMD in order to consistently make a DC 20 check to emulate a class feature, why not go for the UMD 20+CL check to activate the scroll in the first place and do away with Esoteric Linguistics? I'll take Skill Focus (UMD) instead of Skill Focus (Linguistics) and save myself a feat. Then not only will I be able to activate scrolls, but I'll be able to use wands and other devices that aren't covered by Esoteric Linguistics.

Scarab Sages

Michael Hallet wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
As for feats related to any overspecialization, understand that it is the overspecialization that creates the issue. Picking some obscure rules mechanic, then making your character unable to function without that particular mechanic working a certain way - that kind of character creation is the problem. Make your character able to function with table varience and you'll be fine.
This isn't about overspecialization. Nothing is overspecialized by taking a single feat. By clinging to your argument you are choosing to make Esoteric Linguistics a useless feat. If I have to put resources into pumping up UMD in order to consistently make a DC 20 check to emulate a class feature, why not go for the UMD 20+CL check to activate the scroll in the first place and do away with Esoteric Linguistics? I'll take Skill Focus (UMD) instead of Skill Focus (Linguistics) and save myself a feat. Then not only will I be able to activate scrolls, but I'll be able to use wands and other devices that aren't covered by Esoteric Linguistics.

Uh, no, this is directed at this:

Michael Hallet wrote:
What I'm getting out of this thread so far is I have another character concept that I should just abandon before I take feats that are wasted at a number of tables.

Where you mention "feats." Sorry if the quotes were misleading. the quote above makes it pretty clear that you are overspecializing regarding scroll use. Maybe I misunderstood your intentions.

As for Esoteric Linguistics, it still works as written. I don't recall directing anything against that one. I could explain it, but it seemed off topic, so I haven't addressed that one.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Stuff

Sorry, it was really long and you seem to be editing things I say to make them inaccurate.

I also seem to be getting comments directed at me regarding the use of UMD to emulate class features in addition to Use Scroll. I'm against this, as I've said.

It's the caster level which I don't think can be emulated by UMD in the manner being suggested. And Part of this is because caster level isn't required to activate a scroll. Activating the scroll requires a caster level check, but doesn't require a caster level. UMD doesn't give you a caster level for the purposes of caster level checks.

To use a scroll with use magic device, the steps are:

-Decipher a Written Spell: This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration.

-Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

--Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.

And that activates the scroll.

Then we have this effect, related to the activation of the scroll:

-If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Stuff
Sorry, it was really long and you seem to be editing things I say to make them inaccurate.

I am not editing anything. I'm quoting you.

Quote:
It's the caster level which I don't think can be emulated by UMD in the manner being suggested.

1) The mechanism laid out under the scroll has NOTHING to do with the mechanism in use magic device.

2) Use a scroll DC: 20 + caster level

Caster level is already accounted for in your UMD check. You are already making the check using your UMD in place of your caster level as if your caster level were zero. The thing you're saying can't be done has already been done.

Use magic device to activate a scroll is one check if you have read it and have the ability score. Requiring the players to do anything else is an unfair change in the rules. Please don't make your players abilities fail more often than they should by requiring multiple checks, it halves your chances of success and is a needless penalty to players trying to do things.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:


1) The mechanism laid out under the scroll has NOTHING to do with the mechanism in use magic device.

2) Use a scroll DC: 20 + caster level

Caster level is already accounted for in your UMD check. You are already making the check using your UMD in place of your caster level as if your caster level were zero. The thing you're saying can't be done has already been done.

I do see your point, but I don't think it works that way.

Example, 1st level wizard wants to cast a 2nd level wizard spell via scroll and he does have high INT. Normally, he would meet all 3 requirments to use the scroll. He would require a caster level check to avoid a scroll mishap, but it's easy to pass for a low level scroll.

Now you are saying the wizard can use UMD to bypass the caster level requirement, and subsequently avoid any danger associated with using high level scrolls?

This isn't about a caster level required to active a magic item. The caster level isn't required at all. This is about creating a caster level for the purposes of passing checks, or ignoring checks.

Can my caster use UMD to increase their caster level on concentration checks? Sure doesn't seem that way...

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Where you mention "feats." Sorry if the quotes were misleading. the quote above makes it pretty clear that you are overspecializing regarding scroll use. Maybe I misunderstood your intentions.

"Feats" because Esoteric Linguistics requires Skill Focus (Linguistics).

It sounds like I was misunderstanding what you were arguing.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:


Now

Stop that.

I have always been saying this. It's not new, it's not a curve ball, its what i've been saying the entire time and it's how virtually everyone does it. You made the UMD check the scroll goes off.

Quote:
you are saying the wizard can use UMD to bypass the caster level requirement, and subsequently avoid any danger associated with using high level scrolls?

Why on earth would you want to?

Your idea that caster level checks are hard is mathematically wrong. For scrolls that you should be using you cannot fail even on a 1 or a 2.

The DC to use a scroll with UMD is 20+the caster level

The DC to crank it on with your caster level is zero + the caster level.

You need your caster level +20 UMD before you even break even on it.

Quote:
This isn't about a caster level required to active a magic item. The caster level isn't required at all. This is about creating a caster level for the purposes of passing checks, or ignoring checks.

Those are baked into the scroll when it's created.

Quote:
Can my caster use UMD to increase their caster level on concentration checks? Sure doesn't seem that way...

No. And you're being really weird for no discernable reason it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Scarab Sages

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Hmm...was creating a response to you, BNW, but found something I had overlooked.

I had been thinking that using UMD would allow you to take 20 on the check, or other bypass consequences of using the scroll. I forgot about this bit which applies to all UMD checks:

Quote:

Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

So no taking 20 and no taking 10 with a risk of failure on natural 1s. That's pretty close to the Scroll mishap limitations.

I concede my end of this debate. I now think the UMD check for using scrolls is intended to erase the requirement for caster level checks. Thank you for your part.

Michael Hallet wrote:

So what about Esoteric Linguistics?

Quote:
Benefit: You can attempt a Linguistics check in place of a Use Magic Device check to activate a scroll, or in place of a Spellcraft check to identify a scroll. You must still have (or emulate) the ability score required to cast a spell of the desired level, and you cannot use Linguistics on the check to emulate the required ability score.
The feat mentions nothing about having to emulate a class ability to use a scroll. Seems odd to me that they would explicitly mention one facet of activating a scroll which you cannot use Linguistics to accomplish, yet be completely silent on another.

Sorry to not answer this one before.

The main advantage is that Linguistics is an INT skill, while UMD is a CHA skill. So a character with higher INT than CHA would benefit from this feat. A character with high INT would not need to emulate attribute for Wizards spells, since those rely on INT.

Feat is basically directed at high INT characters that would like to be able to use wizard scrolls without CHA based checks.

The spellcraft portion is minor, but it allows you to use the skill which you already have skill focus in for the check, instead of using another INT skill without skill focus.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
The main advantage is that Linguistics is an INT skill, while UMD is a CHA skill. So a character with higher INT than CHA would benefit from this feat. A character with high INT would not need to emulate attribute for Wizards spells, since those rely on INT.

What they're saying is that the feat would be useless if you needed any check other than the one to put the spell on your class list.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
What they're saying is that the feat would be useless if you needed any check other than the one to put the spell on your class list.

This. Like I said, I wasn't understanding what you were arguing.

I was arguing that if someone thinks that a DC 20 UMD check is required to get the Spells class feature in order to use a scroll, then Esoteric Linguistics is a useless feat.

Scarab Sages 4/5

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Something to think about is that the Activating a Scroll section does not actually say that you are using UMD to put the spell on your list. It is a roll to activate the scroll, and you do so treating the scroll as though the spell were on your list. Nowhere in that does it say you actually need to have a spell list. All it means is, as far as activating that scroll is concerned, you are treated as though you do have the spell on your list, and that's all the scroll cares about.

Like others have noted, the only other requirement laid out in UMD is that you need to have the casting stat. And if you don't, then you might need to make a second roll to emulate having that stat.

Those are the only two rolls necessary, because those are the only two rolls the section on using UMD to activate a scroll requires you to make.

Sovereign Court 5/5

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So, having started this mess, here's what my evolved position has become with respect to using scrolls via UMD skill.

According to the skill description, there are only three contexts in which UMD is used with scrolls.

one: as an alternative option other than Read Magic or Spellcraft to decipher the scroll.

two: the main use; the use where you actually use the skill to unleash the spell out of the scroll. Doesn't matter what class you are and doesn't matter what level you are. The skill lets you just make it Go at the given CL for the scroll. This isn't casting a spell; it's making a skill check.

three: the tricky one as it's introducing "if-then" logic into the whole affair. IF the UMD-er doesn't have the appropriate casting stat, THEN an additional UMD check is necessary to emulate the stat. I synthesize that if this additional UMD check is relevant, you make the two checks but the timing between them is considered irrelevant and so should be considered simultaneous in-game.

Now here's where I'm taking the good discussion upthread in mind and this is how I'm now answering my own OP.

Even in the event that the "emulate a stat" UMD check is not necessary due to the UMD-ers stat already being high enough, for PFS purposes the stat still MUST be explicitly chosen by the player/character. This choice in turn allows the GM to reasonably determine whether the scroll is being cast as an arcane or divine scroll, and then in turn answer whether ASF is relevant.

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

Ferious Thune wrote:

Something to think about is that the Activating a Scroll section does not actually say that you are using UMD to put the spell on your list. It is a roll to activate the scroll, and you do so treating the scroll as though the spell were on your list. Nowhere in that does it say you actually need to have a spell list. All it means is, as far as activating that scroll is concerned, you are treated as though you do have the spell on your list, and that's all the scroll cares about.

Like others have noted, the only other requirement laid out in UMD is that you need to have the casting stat. And if you don't, then you might need to make a second roll to emulate having that stat.

Those are the only two rolls necessary, because those are the only two rolls the section on using UMD to activate a scroll requires you to make.

It all seems so simple when folks sit, read the rules and follow accordingly. Adding steps and checks that do not belong just muddies the waters for no reason.

PFS even makes the "Emulating an ability score" portion much easier for the non-castery folks by making scrolls basically generic. So you should have a relevant ability score from INT, WIS or CHA that you can use for the proper caster ability score.

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