Using Soul Gems to starve the Abyss.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.


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You think you're going to be able to kill every single chaotic evil person in the universe, and trap their souls before they make it to the Abyss.

Good luck, let me know how it turns out. :-)


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Pharasma will be quite... perturbed.


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That's what daemons do, except replace "CE people" with "everybody". Destroying a soul gem doesn't destroy the soul, though; it frees the soul.

But yes, unless you do this universally, there's no appreciable effect.


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QuidEst wrote:
That's what daemons do, except replace "CE people" with "everybody". Destroying a soul gem doesn't destroy the soul, though; it frees the soul.

I didn't say destroy the soul gem. You use them to cast spells or craft magical material.

"In these cases, souls should be assigned values based on the categories presented here and then treated as material components, reducing the gold expenditure necessary to cast the spell according to the souls’ value. (Thus a spell that requires 400 gp to cast might instead cost 300 gp and a basic-level soul.) Souls used in this manner are consumed and destroyed utterly."


captain yesterday wrote:

You think you're going to be able to kill every single chaotic evil person in the universe, and trap their souls before they make it to the Abyss.

Good luck, let me know how it turns out. :-)

By that logic nobody should bother playing a Good adventurer because they will never kill every demon or stop every threat.

Dark Archive

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Well the only real argument is that 25 gp a pop per evil person is very expensive. On the morals side the destruction of a soul is a evil act, even if it is done to a evil person. While it does make sense logically, it is the same argument of why don't we just kill all the people in the town jails? On the other side of things, I made a daemon worshiping wizard who justified what he did by only doing that to evil things.


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Beyond ticking off Lamashtu, all the Demon Lords, Pharasma and probably a good chunk of the Psychopomp ushers, the problem is too vast to be resolved with soul gems. The abyss doesn't just receive souls from Golarion or even Golarion and the surrounding planets like Castrovel. It receives them from the entire universe. So even if you were able to develop employ this tactic effectively across a nation or even world, it's like trying to empty the ocean with an eyedropper.

Not to mention that a single CE evil soul has the potential numerous demons, depending on the sins in question and how evil the person was.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

You think you're going to be able to kill every single chaotic evil person in the universe, and trap their souls before they make it to the Abyss.

Good luck, let me know how it turns out. :-)

By that logic nobody should bother playing a Good adventurer because they will never kill every demon or stop every threat.

I've never seen a character whose motivation was to kill all evil, so I don't see it coming up. :-)


loc wrote:
Well the only real argument is that 25 gp a pop per evil person is very expensive. On the morals side the destruction of a soul is a evil act, even if it is done to a evil person. While it does make sense logically, it is the same argument of why don't we just kill all the people in the town jails? On the other side of things, I made a daemon worshiping wizard who justified what he did by only doing that to evil things.

It actually makes a slight profit when you factor in that even a basic soul is worth 100gp of magical reagents.

It certainly wouldn't be the only thing the character does. More like when I am fighting the BBG I planned to kill anyway I soul gem him instead of letting him move on to the Abyss.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
loc wrote:
Well the only real argument is that 25 gp a pop per evil person is very expensive. On the morals side the destruction of a soul is a evil act, even if it is done to a evil person. While it does make sense logically, it is the same argument of why don't we just kill all the people in the town jails? On the other side of things, I made a daemon worshiping wizard who justified what he did by only doing that to evil things.

It actually makes a slight profit when you factor in that even a basic soul is worth 100gp of magical reagents.

It certainly wouldn't be the only thing the character does. More like when I am fighting the BBG I planned to kill anyway I soul gem him instead of letting him move on to the Abyss.

Killing a demon is very efficient. It takes a very long time for a demon to form from a soul, and presumably takes a significant amount of resources. Destroying a soul has a chance to prevent the creation of a demon several centuries down the line, but does so in a manner that frees up all the resources it would take to go to another soul instead. And yeah, for the souls of powerful people, it might have a positive outcome, but you're also pretty likely to balance it out by signing yourself up to be a new daemon of roughly equal power in roughly the same amount of time.


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This would be like trying to count all the grains of sand in all the beach, or trying to drain the oceans one thimble at time.

And even if you manage to stop all the evil souls from becoming demons...well now you just have the Qlippoth, which are spontaneously generated by the Abyss.


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Moral repercussions?

Just worship Asmodeus and hate Demons! Problem solved, right?


All their evil memories and emotions are destroyed, while the inspiration at the center of their soul returns to the divine level from whence it came. You could bring the gems back to your church so they can pass them on to outsiders for deprogramming and eventual redeeming.

If you destroy all the evil in one town that way, the town might become sucked into the upper planes. Before that, all types of reapers and big metal retriever spiders will come try to stop you.


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Claxon wrote:


And even if you manage to stop all the evil souls from becoming demons...well now you just have the Qlippoth, which are spontaneously generated by the Abyss.

Pretty much this.

I'm not sure how helping these guys(?) achieve their overarching goal is going to do much for you in the long run.


loc wrote:
While it does make sense logically, it is the same argument of why don't we just kill all the people in the town jails?

No, it is the same argument of why don't we just painlessly euthanize all those people 99.999% of whom are going to be tortured and consumed in the most horrific fashion and the remaining 0.001% will wriggle out of that fate by having enough willingness and ability to horrifically torture their fellow unfortunates. Oh, and none these people would even know WHY they are suffering, because acts that consigned them to such fate were committed by what were effectively different entities - from whom they hatched but whose lives they do not remember.

"But you cannot destroy all Evil souls therefore why even bother?" is literally the same argument as "But you cannot defeat all Evil forever therefore why even bother?"

In Pathfinder cosmology there is no moral downside to destroying souls of creatures that detect as Evil. At worst, and even that is arguable, you're speeding up destruction of the universe - or the net result of your efforts may actually be delaying it by reducing power of fiends. And even if you ARE speeding it up, as the final triumph of darkness, void and eternal oblivion for everyone is inevitable anyway, it is still arguable whether buying the opportunity for more creatures to enjoy existence is worth horrible suffering of creatures already in existence. If some planar powers say that soul destruction is bad without even presenting an argument along these lines, they are either unimaginably vengeful and vindictive, or side with fiends for selfishly pragmatic reasons - whatever differences there are between uppper and lower planes, souls must flow!

The only reason why people argue otherwise seem to be the baggage associated with the word "soul", and that word is a rather poor fit for the cast-off ecloplasm you leave after your death in Pathfinder anyway.


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FatR wrote:
loc wrote:
While it does make sense logically, it is the same argument of why don't we just kill all the people in the town jails?

No, it is the same argument of why don't we just painlessly euthanize all those people 99.999% of whom are going to be tortured and consumed in the most horrific fashion and the remaining 0.001% will wriggle out of that fate by having enough willingness and ability to horrifically torture their fellow unfortunates. Oh, and none these people would even know WHY they are suffering, because acts that consigned them to such fate were committed by what were effectively different entities - from whom they hatched but whose lives they do not remember.

"But you cannot destroy all Evil souls therefore why even bother?" is literally the same argument as "But you cannot defeat all Evil forever therefore why even bother?"

In Pathfinder cosmology there is no moral downside to destroying souls of creatures that detect as Evil. At worst, and even that is arguable, you're speeding up destruction of the universe - or the net result of your efforts may actually be delaying it by reducing power of fiends. And even if you ARE speeding it up, as the final triumph of darkness, void and eternal oblivion for everyone is inevitable anyway, it is still arguable whether buying the opportunity for more creatures to enjoy existence is worth horrible suffering of creatures already in existence. If some planar powers say that soul destruction is bad without even presenting an argument along these lines, they are either unimaginably vengeful and vindictive, or side with fiends for selfishly pragmatic reasons - whatever differences there are between uppper and lower planes, souls must flow!

The only reason why people argue otherwise seem to be the baggage associated with the word "soul", and that word is a rather poor fit for the cast-off ecloplasm you leave after your death in Pathfinder anyway.

Exactly. Best case scenario, killing a chaotic evil person consigns them to horrible torture with them either becoming a demon or making another demon more powerful(worst case would be they get resurrected or come back as undead to cause even more harm).

The only realistic alternative I see is with Create Soul Gem.


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Consider this: all those Soul Gems have to be stored somewhere, eternally.

That is quite the prize for the demon that is clever enough to steal it.

Not a question of if, only when and how many. You could have an imp jump straight to demon lord or even godhood with that many stored souls.


Snowlilly wrote:

Consider this: all those Soul Gems have to be stored somewhere, eternally.

That is quite the prize for the demon that is clever enough to steal it.

Not a question of if, only when and how many. You could have an imp jump straight to demon lord or even godhood with that many stored souls.

No they don't. You can use the soul gems as spell components or for magical crafting and the soul is permanently destroyed.

"In these cases, souls should be assigned values based on the categories presented here and then treated as material components, reducing the gold expenditure necessary to cast the spell according to the souls’ value. (Thus a spell that requires 400 gp to cast might instead cost 300 gp and a basic-level soul.) Souls used in this manner are consumed and destroyed utterly."


Assuming this works, what do you intend to do about the armies of Qlippoth and Devils that are now no longer busy fighting Demons?


Snowlilly wrote:

Consider this: all those Soul Gems have to be stored somewhere, eternally.

That is quite the prize for the demon that is clever enough to steal it.

Not a question of if, only when and how many. You could have an imp jump straight to demon lord or even godhood with that many stored souls.

Missed the part about them being used as spell components? EDIT: ninja'd by the OP himself. :)

But my question is this: why stop at CE? Why not shoot for all the Es? Go big or go home, right?

(Incidentally, this sounds like perfect villain territory, but, you know, I'm curious; if you're going for it, why stop there.)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
johnlocke90 wrote:

One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.

it's what the eldar do in warhammer 40k.

all eldar have a soulstone on them at anytime to capture their soul on death. though they're incredibly hard to get the soul out of and hard to destroy.


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The Sideromancer wrote:
Assuming this works, what do you intend to do about the armies of Qlippoth and Devils that are now no longer busy fighting Demons?

Devils aren't really too terribly busy with demons in PF. I mean sometimes, yeah, but the ruler of the first layer is literally titled "friend of demons" so... not quite the blood war of older editions.

Instead it's the qlippoths/proteans/axiomites (and their inevitables) that are in the eternal war with each other (and demon kind).

I mean, also Azatas and other celestials.


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The Sideromancer wrote:
Assuming this works, what do you intend to do about the armies of Qlippoth and Devils that are now no longer busy fighting Demons?

Pathfinder isn't 3.5, we don't have the Blood Wars. And based on the Book of the Damned series, Demons and Devils spend more time killing innocent people and Good outsiders than they do each other.

As for Qlippoths, they are clearly less of a threat than Demons, seeing as how easily the Demons defeated the Qlippoths.

Edit: Also IIRC Qlippoths only want to wipe out humanity because it would starve the demons. If demons weren't a threat anymore, they would probably go back to not caring.


Tacticslion wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

Consider this: all those Soul Gems have to be stored somewhere, eternally.

That is quite the prize for the demon that is clever enough to steal it.

Not a question of if, only when and how many. You could have an imp jump straight to demon lord or even godhood with that many stored souls.

Missed the part about them being used as spell components? EDIT: ninja'd by the OP himself. :)

But my question is this: why stop at CE? Why not shoot for all the Es? Go big or go home, right?

(Incidentally, this sounds like perfect villain territory, but, you know, I'm curious; if you're going for it, why stop there.)

Chaotic Evil is an easier target for agreement, but yeah, it makes sense to use it on any Evil person you are going to kill anyway.


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The Abyss doesn't need souls to produce minions, they are just... useful. Qlippoths existed before, and with demons gone they might raise to unexpected strength. Or the Abyss comes up with something else, it's chaos after all - it embraces change.

But let's go one big step back, to the actual collection of souls. You will face the wrath of Pharasma, aeons, inevitables, good outsiders, night hags, demons etc. etc. - and all their mortal allies. Daemons might be not as fond as you might think first, since your approach provokes unusual alliances against soul destruction. Funny thing is, Asmodeus might approve - from my gut feeling he'd like to see the Abyss more or less tamed, so eridicating many / all demons helps.

Further, it's questionable whether a mortal could gain enough power to beat all these CE mortals. Even if you have the power, you would have to find and kill them at very high speed, because new CE creatures pop up all the time. And they don't need CE parents to come into existance.

It's easy to turn insane about such a task - turning the wannabe hero into an easy victim for any evil power which pretends to help. Who knows, he might be even be tricked by a clever demon...


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I didn't intend to suggest I would starve the entire abyss alone. More like a side job I do during normal adventuring.

Like "Oh, we just killed the Chaotic Evil BBG, lets soul gem and destroy his soul instead of it going to the Abyss".


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johnlocke90 wrote:

One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.

Because that would be like trying to empty an ocean by using buckets. Thorectically possible, but not very acheivable. And when you are doing that, you're simply concentrating the chaos and evil in yourself by doing such horrific acts.


Honestly the easier route would just be to "mine" the Abyss for soul gems and directly damage the source. The Abyss (and most aligned outer planes) is basically concentrated soul stuff. Just build a device to constantly transform it into soul gems. Then take the gems, purify them, and transfer them directly to your plane of choice (Axis might even build the device if you give them a cut) and tada you just shifted the power balance in a small way. If you get Axis involved they might even be able to make a self replicating version of the device to make a bigger strike against the Abyss and Chaos in general. Admittiedly that is the recipe for a Lawful grey goo scenario but that is besides the point.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:

One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.

Because that would be like trying to empty an ocean by using buckets. Thorectically possible, but not very acheivable. And when you are doing that, you're simply concentrating the chaos and evil in yourself by doing such horrific acts.

you give literally everyone a soulgem or some such that captures their soul on death. You then use a spell to detect the alignment of the creature inside.

If it's an illegal alignment, it is destroyed. Otherwise, you use another theoretical spell to ask the soul what it desires. If it has the funds, it can be resurrected. If it does not or merely wishes to, it passes on.


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This sounds like a job for self-replicating berserker probes.

Souleater probes are intelligent, magic-using machines with the following directive:

Reduce the number of evil souls in existence to zero.

The Souleaters are capable of using magic and as ageless beings that can traverse the universe, they have plenty of time to duplicate themselves and become more powerful. Any time a Souleater gains experience, that knowledge is copied amongst all other Souleaters. Eventually, there will be more stupidly high level wizard machines in the universe than any other kind of being. Surely, that is enough to complete their task. Using up soulgems as material components to build more Souleaters is ideal but not necessary. Most of them will probably be built out of dismantled star systems.

To be absolutely certain that evil souls do not spontaneously arise, it's best that they convert all available matter and energy across all planes into Souleaters.

This might be a bigger problem than all evil.


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johnlocke90 wrote:

One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.

This sounds like the kind of twisted logic Asmodeus would utilise to conquer the Abyss.


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Now I think I want to run a game where a generic fantasy world is being targeted for consumption and conversion by self-replicating machines that have already devoured most of the galaxy.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Now I think I want to run a game where a generic fantasy world is being targeted for consumption and conversion by self-replicating machines that have already devoured most of the galaxy.

i'm currently running this basically.

Contributor

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I assure you that daemons have absolutely seeded this idea to as many mortal spellcasters with delusions of a greater good as they possibly can (along with flawed methods to summon and bind daemons that end up giving the caster zero control).


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:

One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.

This sounds like the kind of twisted logic Asmodeus would utilise to conquer the Abyss.

So the problem is?...

;)

I swear I'm not that Diabolical in real life!


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Heh, no problem.

Could be a good background for a new campaign. Hmm..,


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Bandw2 wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Now I think I want to run a game where a generic fantasy world is being targeted for consumption and conversion by self-replicating machines that have already devoured most of the galaxy.
i'm currently running this basically.

Tell me more!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Now I think I want to run a game where a generic fantasy world is being targeted for consumption and conversion by self-replicating machines that have already devoured most of the galaxy.
i'm currently running this basically.
Tell me more!

I'd rather not, it's rather embarrassing when I say it out loud.

Though if you insist and listen to my whisper:
It's basically the concept from >Rick and Morty<, where the entire universe, planes and all is basically a battery. Then on top of that the collection program is basically the Reapers from mass effect mixed with the Necrons from 40K. So far the PCs only know they're being absorbed for magical energy by an ancient race and have come into contact with some foot soldiers and a few Indoctrinated people.

The campaign starts off pretty much as the start of ME1. Where the Citadel (massive and ancient fortress city) has been hacked to not give out the signal that it's harvest time. A single left over monitor is trying to find a way to reactivate the citadel while also harvesting some human cities for a work force.

Right now, the players got to a old hidden base that the World government just found out got reactivated and a magical sentience overseeing the base told them to go to a certain place. Thy don't know it yet, but the PCs are currently adventuring toward a rogue Reaper.

He likes dinner parties.


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johnlocke90 wrote:

One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.

This is basically what Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle is trying to do only on the grander scale of depriving *all* afterlives of from receiving souls. He does this via Simulacrums, Reincarnate and Soul Bind (for those who won't accept Reincarnation), since he likes his alignment to remain Neutral. It's a great long term for a goal for a high level PC. Or it makes for an interesting background to a setting.


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Of course instead you could talk to evil individually and persuade them to be good.

I'm just joking. Slaughter 'em and keep the crystals handy.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
MageHunter wrote:

Of course instead you could talk to evil individually and persuade them to be good.

I'm just joking. Slaughter 'em and keep the crystals handy.

dude, imagine a mass leaflet campaign

"every good deed is one less fed demon"


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Bandw2 wrote:
MageHunter wrote:

Of course instead you could talk to evil individually and persuade them to be good.

I'm just joking. Slaughter 'em and keep the crystals handy.

dude, imagine a mass leaflet campaign

"every good deed is one less fed demon"

Did you know just ONE soul can spawn dozens of dretches? Do your part today to make the multi verse a better place! *

*Message not sponsored by or affiliated with the church of Saranrae.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:

This sounds like a job for self-replicating berserker probes.

Souleater probes are intelligent, magic-using machines with the following directive:

Reduce the number of evil souls in existence to zero.

The Souleaters are capable of using magic and as ageless beings that can traverse the universe, they have plenty of time to duplicate themselves and become more powerful. Any time a Souleater gains experience, that knowledge is copied amongst all other Souleaters. Eventually, there will be more stupidly high level wizard machines in the universe than any other kind of being. Surely, that is enough to complete their task. Using up soulgems as material components to build more Souleaters is ideal but not necessary. Most of them will probably be built out of dismantled star systems.

To be absolutely certain that evil souls do not spontaneously arise, it's best that they convert all available matter and energy across all planes into Souleaters.

This might be a bigger problem than all evil.

Better versioN: souleater probes use the evil soul gems themselves to build more souleater probes. That way they aren't destroying starsystems.


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:

One of the big problems in Golarian is that killing chaotic evil people just leads their souls to the abyss where they become food for demons. Which just makes team evil stronger.

That got me thinking, why not use soul gems to trap and then destroy the chaotic evil souls(by using them as crafting materials for instance)? Seems like the logical alternative.

This sounds like the kind of twisted logic Asmodeus would utilise to conquer the Abyss.

You can apply the logic to lawful evil people too.


Incidentally i've just recently started rereading the awesome epic fantastic D&D 3e fanfic/campaign log Tales of Wyre on ENWorld where they do this on page 2, to a Balor. Lets just say things get worse from there... Though not necessarily due to that ploy. I do not remember anymore if the Balor escapes or is freed. But his master sure is pissed about that.

(Todd do you know that one?)


Thanael wrote:

Incidentally i've just recently started rereading the awesome epic fantastic D&D 3e fanfic/campaign log Tales of Wyre on ENWorld where they do this on page 2, to a Balor. Lets just say things get worse from there... Though not necessarily due to that ploy. I do not remember anymore if the Balor escapes or is freed. But his master sure is pissed about that.

(Todd do you know that one?)

The good thing about the soul gem strategy is the enemy can't escape or be freed. Its soul gets permanently destroyed when you use it as a spell component.


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Anybody who wants to play an android or robot, make them a probe. When their soul gem starts to run dry, have them suddenly start to remember their mission.:)

Worse yet(depending on your point of view), whoever was supposed to harvest the world, has long since ascended to a higher plane. They left,"Carry on my wayward son.",on their answering machine. This song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS_Rg7wh2Ew


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johnlocke90 wrote:
"In these cases, souls should be assigned values based on the categories presented here and then treated as material components, reducing the gold expenditure necessary to cast the spell according to the souls’ value. (Thus a spell that requires 400 gp to cast might instead cost 300 gp and a basic-level soul.) Souls used in this manner are consumed and destroyed utterly."

So, found a human society that feeds it's magic by capturing and consuming the souls of its own dead.

If that is not the definition of an evil society, I don't know what it.


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Goth Guru wrote:

Anybody who wants to play an android or robot, make them a probe. When their soul gem starts to run dry, have them suddenly start to remember their mission.:)

Worse yet(depending on your point of view), whoever was supposed to harvest the world, has long since ascended to a higher plane. They left,"Carry on my wayward son.",on their answering machine. This song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS_Rg7wh2Ew

An even better song for the same purpose.

johnlocke90 wrote:
"In these cases, souls should be assigned values based on the categories presented here and then treated as material components, reducing the gold expenditure necessary to cast the spell according to the souls’ value. (Thus a spell that requires 400 gp to cast might instead cost 300 gp and a basic-level soul.) Souls used in this manner are consumed and destroyed utterly."
Snowlilly wrote:

So, found a human society that feeds it's magic by capturing and consuming the souls of its own dead.

If that is not the definition of an evil society, I don't know what it.

One of the very interesting things about ideas like these - and bear in mind, I'm not for this idea as a broad concept at all - is the complete disinterest in understanding it on its own terms.

Snowlilly, the more you distort what is actually being described, the more you weaken your own position and strengthen the very thing you're attempting to weaken. Effectively, you're undermining yourself.

johnlocke90 wasn't even describing a society that did this to "the souls of its own dead" (though others have had fun poking holes with the larger concept of taking his thought experiment to extremes) - he was, at most, describing this as a man who did this to the souls of his villains (especially the chaotic evil ones).

Let's put this in perspective.

Option One: kill a CE dude; that dude either goes to his god's domain (if he worships a god faithfully enough; only Pharasma can judge); or he goes to the abyss - in the latter case, he becomes a demon
- scenario a) [goes to be with his god] he becomes a petitioner, and serves his deities interests (likely eventually becomes a demon or other CE outsider, minor chance becomes a daemon or other NE, or a protean or some kind of CN outsider, but it will likely take a while)
- scenario b) [goes to the abyss] he becomes a petitioner and will become a demon after a time

Option Two: leave the CE dude alone; that dude goes and does CE stuff all over the place; eventually either gains immortality (and continues to do CE stuff all over the place) or dies (see Option One)

Option Three: work with CE dude to help convert him to not-evil (this takes a lot of effort and time and hard work; this is not guaranteed, and is substantially more prone to failure than either Options One, Two, or Three)

Option Four: seal CE dude away forever (this is effectively only temporary, no matter the methods used for "forever")

In all cases except three, CE dude eventually yields more CE stuff; and option three may or may not, depending.

The entire reason this scenario came up is someone went, "Wow: evil people produce more evil, no matter what I do - how can I stop them from doing even more evil, after I stop them from doing evil? Can it apply to more than just one dude?"

The answer is rather self-sustaining, after a fashion.

The problems, however, are many, and are mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

Qlippoth still exist - and they're still awful.

Just because you manage to get rid of all the current crop of demons doesn't mean you'll get rid of all future demons; free will sucks like that. Effectively, you can't control people and you'll eventually have to either have enough for all people an/or you'll just kind of run out of time and energy - things will go wrong with a scheme that grand, in other words. Beyond that, even if it all goes right, there are the other evils - the daemons, qlippoths, titans, demodands, and devils - and non-evils that cause problems no longer kept in check - proteans and axiomites/inevitables -, and other issues. Oh, and, of course, all the twisted and broken rituals that supposedly do this sort of thing but really don't do that at all.

Basically, the problems never end.

Plus, you know, doing this is kind of super evil, because it's using evil methods, even for good ends. It's kind of like <insert graphic torture and descriptions of vile acts here> in order to do <good thing>. Person who did <bad thing> still becomes bad, but it may be a worthwhile "sacrifice" in the service of the literal greater good, so long as they are willing to understand that they are not going to be worthy of that thing. But it's definitely a not-good thing... at least as currently defined in-universe.

Meta-universe, it depends on your attachment to various terms. Most define "soul" the way we do - Pathfinder doesn't, really, though it's a related concept. Of course, "the way" we define soul is not really "one" way, either - we've so many different ways that it's kind of ridiculous.

So: is destroying these evil things that will prey upon innocents "worth" it? I dunno. Maybe. Some people will say yes. Some people will be horrified. Using the methods will condemn you. Make of that what you will.

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