Saethori |
Can a half elf take Racial Heritage? Yes, he's human.
Can he select humanoid (giant)? Yes, it's a humanoid subtype.
Does Major Mind Swap treat him as a giant? Yes, Racial Heritage applies to how spells treat you.
Can he use Major Mind Swap on the overlord? ...Surprisingly, I think the answer is no!
See, Major Mind Swap is asking for somebody with the same race as you. Not having one of the same races, but literally the same race.
Due to Racial Heritage, the half elf has two subtypes, human and giant. (The half elf is no longer part elf, since Racial Heritage says you count as human and the new race, not count as whatever you were before, so this likely overwrites the previous subtypes).
Since his race is considered both human and giant, for somebody to be the same race, they must also be both human and giant. The rune giant, likely being purebred, does not qualify.
Greygland |
Can a half elf take Racial Heritage? Yes, he's human.
Can he select humanoid (giant)? Yes, it's a humanoid subtype.
Does Major Mind Swap treat him as a giant? Yes, Racial Heritage applies to how spells treat you.
Can he use Major Mind Swap on the overlord? ...Surprisingly, I think the answer is no!See, Major Mind Swap is asking for somebody with the same race as you. Not having one of the same races, but literally the same race.
Due to Racial Heritage, the half elf has two subtypes, human and giant. (The half elf is no longer part elf, since Racial Heritage says you count as human and the new race, not count as whatever you were before, so this likely overwrites the previous subtypes).
Since his race is considered both human and giant, for somebody to be the same race, they must also be both human and giant. The rune giant, likely being purebred, does not qualify.
So a dual-race creature cannot count a pure blood as the same race in general?
vhok |
I disagree with Saethori if the rest of it works then it all works. you count as being his race.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
you would count as human elf and apparently giant for anything.
Saethori |
I disagree with Saethori if the rest of it works then it all works. you count as being his race.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
you would count as human elf and apparently giant for anything.
I mentioned this. I stated the spell saw you as a giant in addition to the other things.
The problem is in the word "same". You couldn't call a half elf the same race as a half orc, even though they both have the "human" subtype.
They have the same race (human), but they are not the same race. One is a half elf and one is a half orc.
Same here. One is a pure blooded giant. One is a half elf quarter human quarter giant (or similar).
You count as both. All the time. Not just when it would be advantageous.
Saethori |
Do you have an example of something using this wording in the way you specify? Everything I can find says things like targets having the same race, or same subtype, or similar wording that doesn't imply matching.
I would honestly like to find out Paizo's precedent so I know that's what they lean towards.
SodiumTelluride |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with Saethori's interpretation, and here's why.
First off, I think we can agree that the first three parts of her argument-- a half-elf taking Racial Heritage, said half-elf selecting humanoid (giant), major mind swap treating him as partly humanoid (giant)-- are not in dispute. (I think she also makes a good point about Racial Heritage replacing your elf blood, but we'll set that aside for now.)
What is in dispute here is whether a half-elf with Racial Heritage (humanoid (giant)) can target a full-blooded humanoid (giant).
Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.
Anything that cares about humans, you count as a human. Anything that cares about giants, you count as a giant. But major mind swap doesn't care what subtypes your race might contain-- it only cares that your target is "your same race", and your race is "both human and giant". (And possibly elf, but again-- not the point.) So for major mind swap you would need to cast it on a creature that shares all your racial subtypes, not just one of them.
Sangerine |
I'll disagree with Saethori and Sodium based on basic logical connectives.
So a Half-Elf has two races, Elf and Human. (Both subtypes of humanoid, but all of the subtypes will be, so it's trivial to ignore that within this set.)
We'll call that E and H.
Cheesy the Mindswapper has some set C of his races.
Currently, C = {E,H}.
Cheesy takes Racial Heritage (Humanoid(Rune Giant)). Let Rune Giant be represented by Gr.
Racial Heritage as a function modifies the set of races.
Now, C = {H,Gr}
Cheesy then attempts to use Major Mind Swap on Harglebarglenamenax, the big strong giant.
Major Mind Swap demands a target with
one creature of your same race
.
Alrighty then, do we have any other qualifiers? The target needs a soul, but that's it (and I doubt anyone is contesting the presence of a soul).
So, if it can be demonstrated that Cheesy has the same race as poor Hargle, then Cheesy can swap.
Let Hargle's race be represented by the set H = {Gr}.
Assumptions;
H = {Gr}
C = {H,Gr}
Well, for all X ∈ H, X ∈ C (IE; Gr is the only element in H, and is present in C).
Thus it is trivial to state that H ⊆ C.
Lazy as hell proof, and will address the "whole race is needed" bit here.
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Notice that race is listed as a singular parameter. You do not add another facet to your race, you choose a new race and are counted as both races.
Refer to Major Mind Swaps target above, which states one singular race. Provided your race set includes an identical member of the targets race set (IE; some X exists such that X ∈ A∩B) then you can swap with them.
Poor Hargle gets his will save, and loses his body to Cheesy if he fails it. Then I lob the CRB at Cheesys player.
David knott 242 |
I think the real question for a Half-Elf with Racial Heritage would be whether you cease to count as an Elf or Half-Elf in the absence of specific language that says that you do. In other words -- does that feat make a full replacement, or does it add one race and then confirm that you do not lose your original race(s) (which at a minimum would have to include human because of the feat prerequisite)?
The Elf part is easy: You haven't lost the Elf Blood racial feature, so you do still count as an Elf and a Human for all effects regardless of other factors.
I think the Half-Elf part is the only part that would be up for debate. But in that case, you still have numerous half-elf racial features and may previously have taken favored class bonuses and other options specific to half-elves. What happens to all of those choices if you suddenly cease to be a half-elf? And just what is your race if you count as several other races but not as a half-elf?
SodiumTelluride |
I'll disagree with Saethori and Sodium based on basic logical connectives.
So a Half-Elf has two races, Elf and Human. (Both subtypes of humanoid, but all of the subtypes will be, so it's trivial to ignore that within this set.)
We'll call that E and H.
Cheesy the Mindswapper has some set C of his races.
Currently, C = {E,H}.
Cheesy takes Racial Heritage (Humanoid(Rune Giant)). Let Rune Giant be represented by Gr.
Racial Heritage as a function modifies the set of races.
Now, C = {H,Gr}
Cheesy then attempts to use Major Mind Swap on Harglebarglenamenax, the big strong giant.
Major Mind Swap demands a target with
Major Mind Swap wrote:one creature of your same race.
Alrighty then, do we have any other qualifiers? The target needs a soul, but that's it (and I doubt anyone is contesting the presence of a soul).
So, if it can be demonstrated that Cheesy has the same race as poor Hargle, then Cheesy can swap.
Let Hargle's race be represented by the set H = {Gr}.
Assumptions;
H = {Gr}
C = {H,Gr}Well, for all X ∈ H, X ∈ C (IE; Gr is the only element in H, and is present in C).
Thus it is trivial to state that H ⊆ C.Lazy as hell proof, and will address the "whole race is needed" bit here.
Racial Heritage wrote:Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.Notice that race is listed as a singular parameter. You do not add another facet to your race, you choose a new race and are counted as both races.
Refer to Major Mind Swaps target above, which states one singular race. Provided your race set includes an identical member of the targets race set (IE; some X exists such that X ∈ A∩B) then you can...
Kudos for using set theory to argue a point in a fantasy game. :-)
That said, your argument boils down to the same thing vhok was saying above, that "your same race" means "∃ X ∈ A such that X ∈ B". I'm more convinced it means "A ⊆ B and B ⊆ A" (i.e. the two sets are equivalent).
Sangerine |
I find it easier to list things out step by step, preferably without using terms that have a variety of interpretations. Helps to keep things neat.
As for the race, we actually have examples of it being used as single members of a set (The language in Racial Heritage supports this) but we only have iffy examples of the union of two races referenced as a single race (Paragon Surge is the only one I can think of, and it never refers to Half-Elf as a race, just as a further restriction within the personal limit).
Looks to me like all of the hybrids (Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc) have two races. Human, and whatever the human coupled with.
Saethori |
Looks to me like all of the hybrids (Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc) have two races. Human, and whatever the human coupled with.
Tieflings, Aasimar, and etc (geniekin) don't, by default. They need to take a racial trait, otherwise they are just outsider (native) as their race.
The Elf part is easy: You haven't lost the Elf Blood racial feature, so you do still count as an Elf and a Human for all effects regardless of other factors.
Feats can override traits. For example, the feat Neither Elf nor Human, which expressly alters your racial types, doesn't replace Elf Blood, but instead invalidates it.
Racial Heritage sets your race. It says that you are now Human and Giant. Granted, it was written with the assumption that only humans could take it, but that's often the case when RAW looks weird in irregular scenarios.
As for half elf racials, I've personally counted those as "prerequisite: Human, Elf", therefore allowing humans with Racial Heritage (elf) into them. This doesn't really combine with the previous weirdness though, since this is just how I rule it, and I rule Racial Heritage as add only, no replace, so no serious issue there.
Sangerine |
Sangerine wrote:
Looks to me like all of the hybrids (Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc) have two races. Human, and whatever the human coupled with.Tieflings, Aasimar, and etc (geniekin) don't, by default. They need to take a racial trait, otherwise they are just outsider (native) as their race.
David knott 242 wrote:
The Elf part is easy: You haven't lost the Elf Blood racial feature, so you do still count as an Elf and a Human for all effects regardless of other factors.Feats can override traits. For example, the feat Neither Elf nor Human, which expressly alters your racial types, doesn't replace Elf Blood, but instead invalidates it.
Racial Heritage sets your race. It says that you are now Human and Giant. Granted, it was written with the assumption that only humans could take it, but that's often the case when RAW looks weird in irregular scenarios.
As for half elf racials, I've personally counted those as "prerequisite: Human, Elf", therefore allowing humans with Racial Heritage (elf) into them. This doesn't really combine with the previous weirdness though, since this is just how I rule it, and I rule Racial Heritage as add only, no replace, so no serious issue there.
You are absolutely correct. This is what I get for posting without cross-checking myself before a nap.