Got the opportunity to join a high level game starting at level 16, so I thought I'd try a build I'd never really want to level through since it didn't come online until much later. Queue the Dimensional Feats: Dimensional Agility, Assault, Dervish, and Savant. In addition I've also opted to go for TWFing using a double weapon, the two-bladed sword. Proficiency is solved with the 1.5k ioun stone, which is easily affordable. Normally I'm the first to steer people away from TWFing, but I feel like just being silly here frankly.
Right now I've got Slayer 12/Horizon Walker 4, to get the bulk of TWFing through Slayer talents, and Horizon Walker for the dimension door SLA.
Human
STR 17+3 DEX 14+1 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7
1 Slayer 1: Iron Will, Endurance
2 S 2: TWF
3 S 3: Improved Initiative
4 S 4: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training
5 S 5: Armor Prof Heavy
6 S 6: ITWF
7 Horizon Walker 1: Outflank
8 HW 2
9 HW 3: Dimensional Agility
10 HW 4
11 S 7 FCB Extra Talent: Improved Critical, Dimensional Assault
12 S 8 Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions
13 S 9 Dimensional Dervish
14 S 10 Two-Weapon Rend
15 S 11 Dimensional Savant
16 S 12: Adv Rogue Talent: Feat: Double Slice
The main things I'm questioning right now are the 4th level of Horizon Walker, and the Heavy Armor Proficiency. I'll likely be the only person in melee, so I'm not too sure I'm comfortable downgrading to a mithral breastplate. The idea was to take Plains as my 2nd terrain mastery to remove the movement penalty for wearing mithral full plate so I could dimension door for longer distances, but I'm not sure it's quite worth it. I was also considering Power Attack but it just really doesn't seem nearly as worth it with TWFing, though with a two-bladed sword I can definitely still use one end of it 2h to get some nice mileage out of it.
Looking for any advice, as well as purchasing recommendations, since 315k is frankly, a lot. 3pp suggestions are fine, but are subject to my DM of course.
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I'd drop double slice. It's only giving you a maximum of 6 damage a round on a full attack and you don't need it for two weapon rend.. Also, double check with you GM about heavy armor training shutting down. Ranger combat style. Many people including me rule that because the slayer talent references the ranger ability it shares its medium armor limitation.
I'd drop double slice. It's only giving you a maximum of 6 damage a round on a full attack and you don't need it for two weapon rend.. Also, double check with you GM about heavy armor training shutting down. Ranger combat style. Many people including me rule that because the slayer talent references the ranger ability it shares its medium armor limitation.
Yea, Double Slice is kind of just thrown in there at the end since I wasn't sure what else to grab, and I hated the idea of having to remember to remember to only use half STR mod for off-hand hits.
Interesting remark about Ranger Combat Style and heavy armor. Wearing mithral full plate is treated as medium armor though, which still works.
What race are you?
Humans get 1/6 slayer talent that you can use to get
1) Rogue Talent > Combat Trick > any combat feat
2) Adv Talent > Opportunist
Halflings get 1/4 to AC vs Studied Target
What race are you?
Humans get 1/6 slayer talent that you can use to get
1) Rogue Talent > Combat Trick > any combat feat
2) Adv Talent > Opportunist
Human, and I already did it, see:
11 S 7 FCB Extra Talent: Improved CriticalOpportunist seems less useful since I'm likely the only one in melee. Though flanking with myself to allow myself additional attacks of opportunities with myself could get rather silly.
New idea:
Slayer 10/Horizon Walker 3/Weapon Master Fighter 3
With a 3 level dip into Fighter I lose 1d6 of sneak attack, a favored terrain, and Plains terrain mastery, but gain weapon training, which means I can buy Gloves of Dueling for a +3 to hit and damage on each hit.
While I can flank with myself in an opening volley thanks to Dimensional Dervish/Savant, it's not something I can really use a lot, so I'm not particularly likely to get much out of sneak attack after the first round. Also I can deal with just dropping heavy armor proficiency and just settling for a mithral breastplate, which also opens up an extra feat.
Alright, here is what I have so far now at level 16.
Human
Slayer 10/Horizon Walker 3/Weapon Master Fighter 3
STR 25 DEX 16 CON 18 INT 12 WIS 18 CHA 7
HP 202
AC 35 Flatfooted 31 Touch 19
Fort 20 Ref 16 Will 16
Traits
Armor Expert
Indomitable Faith
1 Slayer 1: Endurance, Iron Will
2 Slayer 2: Two Weapon Fighting
3 Slayer 3: Improved Initiative
4 Slayer 4: Weapon Focus
5 Slayer 5: Big Game Hunter
6 Slayer 6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 Horizon Walker 1: Dodge
8 Horizon walker 2:
9 Horizon Walker 3: Dimensional Agility
10 Slayer 7:
11 Slayer 8: Dimensional Assault, FCB Extra Talent: Improved Critical, Slow Reactions
12 Slayer 9:
13 Slayer 10: Two Weapon Rend
14 Weapon Master Fighter 1: Dimensional Dervish, Outflank
15 Weapon Master Fighter 2: Dimensional Savant, Blind Fight
16 Weapon Master Fighter 3:
Equipment:
Two-Bladed Sword
+2 Cold Iron Impact Holy
+2 Adamantine Impact
+4 Mithral Full Plate
Ring of Protection +4
Amulet of Natural Armor +3
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone +1 insight to AC
Gloves of Dueling
Cloak of Resistance +4
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4
Belt of Physical Might +4 STR/CON
Deep Red Ioun Stone +2 DEX
A bunch of other items
Adding in Outflank and Studied Target my full round Dimensional Dervish looks like this, assuming I'm not activating Study until my 2nd hit through an immediate action on sneak attack through flanking.
+27 2d6+12
+34 2d6+11+3d6
+29 2d6+15+3d6
+29 2d6+11+3d6
+24 2d6+15+3d6
+19 2d6+15+3d6
1d10+10 if MH and OH both hit
Still really tempted to add in Double Slice again just to make that math all even, but this looks pretty solid to me? Could probably drop Impact, but I'm just a fan of that 2d6.
Looking for more advice on this.
Outflanking with yourself definitely needs Combat Reflexes. You need the boots that improve your movement speed. Because Dim Door is limited by this.
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Not the exact same path as you but check out my profile for what a level 9 chararcter with shield bash and dimensional dervish.
Link to the character's build skeleton.
This character has been in play since either 5th or 6th level. It's exciting that he's level 9 and finally beginning to get to do his thing but was more useful than I had expected at lower levels.
Outflanking with yourself definitely needs Combat Reflexes. You need the boots that improve your movement speed. Because Dim Door is limited by this.
Got the Boots of Striding and Springing already for that 60ft Dimension Door range.
I thought about Combat Reflexes, but I don't see myself critting nearly enough to make use of it, even if I am at a 17-20.
Kudor, walk me through what I'm seeing at that level 9. Are you picking up 3 Dimensional feats? I can't even figure out how you're getting 2. How's the second and third coming online at that time?
Kudor, walk me through what I'm seeing at that level 9. Are you picking up 3 Dimensional feats? I can't even figure out how you're getting 2. How's the second and third coming online at that time?
He's retraining Toughness and Endurance into Assault and Dervish.
Eben, follow the link to the character build skeleton in my previous post.
Ah. Gotcha. I've been trying to make a similar PFS build work, but I don't want to jump through those hoops. Thanks. :)
Horizon Slayer isn't bad at all, but did you consider the applications for a level 16 Eldritch Knight type character for using a Dimensional Dervish build? By level 16, you're able to play with things like level 7 spells and Spell Perfection. Slayer is good for the Sneak Attack, but trying to use Study Target and Dimensional Dervish together is pretty dysfunctional.
Horizon Slayer isn't bad at all, but did you consider the applications for a level 16 Eldritch Knight type character for using a Dimensional Dervish build? By level 16, you're able to play with things like level 7 spells and Spell Perfection. Slayer is good for the Sneak Attack, but trying to use Study Target and Dimensional Dervish together is pretty dysfunctional.
I definitely agree with Studied Target and Dimesnional Dervish not working together, and it's really unfortunate, but I don't really see another alternative to obtaining the TWFing I need. I'm open to your suggestion on how to do this with the EK, provided I can maintain a high enough attack bonus to be worthwhile.
Attack bonus isn't much of an issue for a high-level EK since they only lose 3 BAB, and can recoup 2/4 points of attack just with Heroism or Greater Heroism. There are a ton of other self-buffing options on various other kinds of EK builds, depending on whether your group typically allows for a round of pre-buffing and/or whether you're willing to spend the first round casting a buff before diving in with Dervish. Even without pre-buffing, minute/level is a long time at CL16, and Contingency can let you auto-buff.
Combining Dragon Disciple 4 and Eldritch Knight is an option that's slightly weaker on spell levels and caster levels, but it gets you +4STR and some bonus AC. A Fighter1/ Sorcerer4/ Disciple4/ EK7 using Heroism and Blade Tutor's Spirit can TWF Power Attack with what amounts to a +8 attack bonus (+2 STR, +2 Heroism, -2 TWF penalty, -2 Power Attack penalty). If you have the feats to spare, you can even go Bloodrager 1 with some Extra Rage and Mad Magic.
Reaching 17DEX for strength-based TWF isn't difficult. Even just tossing a +2DEX on your belt with the build you posted does it already, or Dual Talent Human makes it easy to start with a 17 if you want to go that route. Having the feats to take TWF isn't hard either when you're getting bonus feats from Eldritch Knight and probably Fighter 1, and you don't need to take Endurance or Iron Will.
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since 3pp is not off the table, a Hidden Blade Rogue can Dim Door at will from lvl 11 on. Veiled Moon maneuvers and stances explicitely qualify for compatibility with the feat chain.
For a non-magic option, there's also going Snakebite Striker Brawler 8/ Weapon Master 4/ Horizon Walker 4, and going 9-ring broadsword "TWF" with Brawler's Flurry, which isn't really that different from normal TWF with a double weapon. Brawler and Fighter provide a ton of feats, and Weapon Master provides plenty of 'always on' combat buffing while Snakebite Striker grants some Sneak Attack.
For a different way to jump targets through magic, a Synergist Witch 8 with Improved Familiar (Silvanshee) can get pounce (along with natural flight). So any kind of multiclassed Strength Patron Synergist Witch 8 can use Divine Favor, Fate's Favored, Heroism and Arcane Strike for a major buff to attack and damage, and then go flying-TWF-pounce.
Synergist could be fun, but I feel none of these quite maintain the same feel I'm looking for with this build, BadBird.
Ellioti, sadly DSP based classes are very unlikely as the DM would rather not deal with a new mechanic like maneuvers, especially at a high level.
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For a non-magic option, there's also going Snakebite Striker Brawler 8/ Weapon Master 4/ Horizon Walker 4, and going 9-ring broadsword "TWF" with Brawler's Flurry, which isn't really that different from normal TWF with a double weapon. Brawler and Fighter provide a ton of feats, and Weapon Master provides plenty of 'always on' combat buffing while Snakebite Striker grants some Sneak Attack.
For a different way to jump targets through magic, a Synergist Witch 8 with Improved Familiar (Silvanshee) can get pounce (along with natural flight). So any kind of multiclassed Strength Patron Synergist Witch 8 can use Divine Favor, Fate's Favored, Heroism and Arcane Strike for a major buff to attack and damage, and then go flying-TWF-pounce.
Is that the weapon master fighter archetype, or is there a weaponmaster prc I am unaware of?
Is that the weapon master fighter archetype, or is there a weaponmaster prc I am unaware of?
Yea, he means the Fighter archetype. If you're just after damage it's pretty much one of the best archetypes for Fighter, since it only requires a 3 level dip to achieve Weapon Training which you can then take advantage of with Gloves of Dueling.
Cool build. I've always wanted to play with these feats when I first saw them, but I mainly play PFS because home games seem to disintegrate by mid level. That means, you are basically done by 10th or 11th level, so this feat chain is out of reach.
I don't even play PFS but it's still pretty rare I get to go over level 12 so I deliberately wanted to do something that comes online late with this.
Is there a dimensional dervish build that could come online by level 9 or so?
Kudor's earlier build does it but he retrains several feats at level 9 to do so.
Without retraining, getting Dimension Door by 7 and going 7/9/11 is as fast as it gets, I think. Travel Cleric can do that with decent combat ability. What with the artificial limits of PFS, I don't think planned retraining is really so bad a perk to use.
Anyways, as far as the OP goes there's really very few limits on what can be combined with Horizon Walker, or what else can be multiclassed with a DDoor caster.
The fact that Slayer can't use its combat buff actually makes it a rather weak choice in my opinion, when compared to all the powerful alternatives that can be thrown together by 16; Unchained Rogue/ Fighter/ Horizon Walker with Effortless Lace rapiers; dual 9-rings with Ascetic Style and Dragon Style on some kind of Sorcerer/ Dragon Disciple/ Martial thing; there are an awful lot of options that don't involve using a class that's gimping itself without swift action.
The fact that Slayer can't use its combat buff actually makes it a rather weak choice in my opinion, when compared to all the powerful alternatives that can be thrown together by 16; Unchained Rogue/ Fighter/ Horizon Walker with Effortless Lace rapiers; dual 9-rings with Ascetic Style and Dragon Style on some kind of Sorcerer/ Dragon Disciple/ Martial thing; there are an awful lot of options that don't involve using a class that's gimping itself without swift action.
Again, I do lose Studied Target swift action, but only for the first hit, since I can still activate it once I start flanking and sneak attacking on the second hit.
None of those options still fit the theme though. Also Horizon Walker is still the best option in my opinion since it's an SLA, and doesn't require actually casting spells. I just get a solid 3+WIS uses of Dimension Door, which is frankly excellent. Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple is simply too far off the mark, and this is clearly not a rogue or rapier using build. The monk one could theoretically work, but I don't want to change weapons.
Again, I do lose Studied Target swift action, but only for the first hit, since I can still activate it once I start flanking and sneak attacking on the second hit.
It's still an immediate action to activate, so it's still in conflict with Dervish, unfortunately.
Slayer can still work without Study; it just raises the question of why you would pick a class with that issue as opposed to all the other options out there. Sneak Attack is the best argument for it; without that it would be an absolutely terrible class to use for this. You could even just splice some Weapon Master into Slayer for a combat upgrade with little consequence.
I totally get it if your concept doesn't involve a casting class; Horizon Walker is great stuff. But casting DDoor as a spell and casting it as an SLA is pretty much identical (it doesn't even have a somatic component), so don't let that part worry you.
It's still an immediate action to activate, so it's still in conflict with Dervish, unfortunately.
Slayer can still work without Study; it just raises the question of why you would pick a class with that issue as opposed to all the other options out there. Sneak Attack is the best argument for it; without that it would be an absolutely terrible class to use for this. You could even just splice some Weapon Master into Slayer for a combat upgrade with little consequence.
I totally get it if your concept doesn't involve a casting class; Horizon Walker is great stuff. But casting DDoor as a spell and casting it as an SLA is pretty much identical (it doesn't even have a somatic component), so don't let that part worry you.
Well crap, I thought for sure you could use a swift and an immediate in the same round knowing that I was losing my swift for the next round, but that is a problem. I'm already taking 3 levels of Weapon Master, I'll have to try dablling in more Weapon Master levels and see if I can still make the TWFing work. I'd really rather not drop TWFing the two-bladed sword from this. Slayer works so well because of Ranger Combat Styles for free TWF, ITWF, and TWRend, and the sneak attack is just gravy on top of it. Losing Studied isn't a total deal breaker, but it's definitely a problem I need to find a way around now.
You could always just go Rogue 4/ Fighter 9/ Horizon Walker 3. +4 from Weapon Training and gloves, 2d6/3d6 Sneak Attack/ Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and up to 7 bonus combat feats if you include the Weapon Training and Combat Trick Rogue Talents. Archetypes for a few more assorted goods if desired, Fighter feats for more combat buffs. If you can use the Weapon Master's Handbook, you can even make the Double Bladed Sword into a finesse weapon with Fighter's Finesse and then apply Trained Grace to it for double your Weapon Training bonus, though strength-based works just fine anyhow.
You could always just go Rogue 4/ Fighter 9/ Horizon Walker 3. +4 from Weapon Training and gloves, 2d6/3d6 Sneak Attack/ Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and up to 7 bonus combat feats if you include the Weapon Training and Combat Trick Rogue Talents. Archetypes for a few more assorted goods if desired, Fighter feats for more combat buffs. If you can use the Weapon Master's Handbook, you can even make the Double Bladed Sword into a finesse weapon with Fighter's Finesse and then apply Trained Grace to it for double your Weapon Training bonus, though strength-based works just fine anyhow.
I think we are finally on to something here. I'm building this up and I think this actually works. Sadly none of the archetypes seem to be helping though. Also my AC is significantly higher now thanks to Defensive Weapon Training and replacing Dodge with Extra Rogue Talent for Offensive Defense, giving me a 39 AC after I sneak attack thanks to Accomplished Sneak Attacker. Sadly I lose the extra attack from 16 BAB though.
With this Rogue/Fighter build I end up with:
HP 201
AC 36, 39 with Offensive Defense
17 Fort, 15 Ref, 16 Will
A lot less skill points
80ft DDoor
Dervish with Outflank
+28 2d6+15
+32 2d6+15+3d6
+27 2d6+15+3d6
+27 2d6+15+3d6
+22 2d6+15+3d6
1d10+10 if MH and OH both hit
With the Slayer(with Accomplished Sneak Attacker)
HP 202
AC 34
20 Fort 16 Ref 16 Will
A lot more skill points
60ft DDoor
Dervish with Outflank
+27 2d6+12
+31 2d6+12+4d6
+26 2d6+12+4d6
+26 2d6+12+4d6
+21 2d6+12+4d6
+16 2d6+12+4d6
1d10+10 if MH and OH both hit
I'm still leaning Slayer for the extra attack and skill points, but all that extra AC I can get with Rogue/Fighter is quite nice. Debilitating Injury is also a thing the Rogue/Fighter can do which is quite nice inflicting -4 to AC, or -4 to attack. This is a tough choice.
I wouldn't be all that worried about one -10 attack that you'll get at the next level anyhow. Debilitating Injury is like a +4 to all your later attacks, which is a major help.
If you take Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist you can get 2 weapon feats, so it's 2-for-1 even if you take it with a feat. If you weren't using that already.
Have you thought of using an unchained monk.
You will have have have considerable more uses of dimension door at 2 ki a pop and a pool of half your level plus wisdom, plus what you are gaining back from the monks ability to freely use ki leech (1 ki back every time you crit and when you kill something)
You can flurry while 2 handing a temple sword so retain the flavor of going in for a ton of attacks and hit like a truck.
weapon + 26 strength +power attack + monk energy + 4 weapon enhancement at least= 1d8 + 31 +1d6 - 17-20 crit. Same amount of attacks
that's before whatever else you can drum as this is just a rough idea, without the 2 weapon fighting penalties which includes the fact that you will be needing to enchant 2 weapons for flurrying swords one.
Dervish speed will also be a minimum of 160 feet, you could easily go back and forth at no risk with that kind of range.
If you don't like the flavor of a monk you don't actually need to consider yourself a monk.
I wouldn't be all that worried about one -10 attack that you'll get at the next level anyhow. Debilitating Injury is like a +4 to all your later attacks, which is a major help.
If you take Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist you can get 2 weapon feats, so it's 2-for-1 even if you take it with a feat. If you weren't using that already.
I am taking Advanced Weapon Training, though I was going for Defensive Weapon Training to get +3 AC. I was also doing Advanced Armor Training and taking either Armored Juggernaut for DR 2/- or Armor Specialization for +2 AC. The DR is probably more useful, but I like the idea of 38 AC.
Have you thought of using an unchained monk.
I thought about it, but I'm too married to the two-bladed sword, even if it less-optimal than I'd like.
I was thinking that if you are emphasizing teleporting and flanking, maybe find a way to get even more Sneak Attack Damage.
Did you say you expect to have the only melee character? Then you can't rely on Flanking to lock in your SAD. Work in a backup method like Dirty Tricks Cornugeon Smash and Shatter Defenses, or Feinting.
Well that's where Accomplished Sneak Attacker comes in. I'll agree that having some kind of backup like Feinting would be ideal, but I only have so many feats.
I think I'm pretty happy with the Rogue/Fighter build for the moment. Had to lose Offensive Defense when I noticed UnRogues don't actually get it. Terrain Mastery is an odd pick, but it fits with Horizon Walker. Endurance is getting retrained since I'm buying a scarlet and green cabochon ioun stone for Endurance.
1 Fighter 1 Iron Will, Endurance(Retrained into Outflank), TWF
2 UnRogue 1
3 UnRogue 2 Weapon Training, Extra Talent: Terrain Mastery
4 UnRogue 3
5 Fighter 2 Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Double Slice
6 Fighter 3
7 Horizon Walker 1 ITWF
8 Horizon Walker 2
9 Horizon Walker 3 Dimensional Agility
10 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization
11 Fighter 5 Dimensional Assault
12 Fighter 6 Improved Critical
13 Fighter 7 Dimensional Dervish, Armor Training: Armor Specialization or Armored Juggernaut
14 Fighter 8 Greater Weapon Focus
15 Fighter 9 Dimensional Savant, Weapon Training: Defensive Weapon Training
16 UnRogue 4 Combat Trick: Two Weapon Rend
If you take Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist you can get 2 weapon feats, so it's 2-for-1 even if you take it with a feat. If you weren't using that already.I am taking Advanced Weapon Training, though I was going for Defensive Weapon Training to get +3 AC.
What I mean is that Advanced Weapon Training also comes as a feat, so you can get Specialization and Improved Critical for 1 feat.
What I mean is that Advanced Weapon Training also comes as a feat, so you can get Specialization and Improved Critical for 1 feat.I am taking Advanced Weapon Training, though I was going for Defensive Weapon Training to get +3 AC.
If you take Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist you can get 2 weapon feats, so it's 2-for-1 even if you take it with a feat. If you weren't using that already.
Ohhh, I did not know that... Hmm... I can even fit Blind Fight in now, this is great, thanks.