Automatically Improving Feats


Homebrew and House Rules


So I'm nearly certain I'm not the first to have this idea, but I had no clue how to search for the topic effectively.

Does anyone have any advice/experience with automatically bumping feat chains up when the prerequisites are met? For instance, Two-Weapon Fighting, then at BAB +6, assuming you have the 17 Dex, you immediately get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting for free? I was thinking things like Two-Weapon Rend would need to be taken on their own, but for the usual Thing-Improved Thing-Greater Thing feat chains would just giving out the second and third feats destroy everything?

A lot of cool feat chains lead to severe pigeonholing, like being really good at tripping but sucking at other manuevers. Has anyone done something similar, and how did it work?


I did it with two weapon fighting. I required TWF and Improved TWF. Greater TWF as given for free.

Combat expertise has been given out for free before. That opens up disarm and trip without the tax feat.


For search purposes, the concept is often called "Scaling Feats".


I tend to just say anyone that meets the dex and bab requirements can use i/g/twf; anyone with the bab requirements can use i/g/vital strike. And then if they want to further specialize they can get things like two weapon rend, etc with their normal feats. It works fine.


Scythia wrote:
For search purposes, the concept is often called "Scaling Feats".

Thanks! I was sure there was some succinct way of expressing it for the search function, but I wasn't getting anywhere.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Style feats follow this fairly easily as well.

more feats should have been made like power attack and scaled, imagine if power attack only ever gave you +2 damage.

Few other ideas is dodge feat gives mobility at 5th character level and such.

I generally think the combat maneuver feats should be automatically gained every few levels in the order the player wants if they have power attack or combat reflexes or whatever.

the monstrosity that is the ranged weapon feat chain...


I'm on the verge of letting Two-Weapon Fighting just be a scaling feat. I already treat Vital Strike behave that way, and there haven't been any repercussions.

I forget the gentleman's name, but I've also adapted his "Powerful/Swift" maneuvers. Essentially Improved Sunder/Grapple/Overrun/Bull Rush etc are 1 feat, and Improved Dirty Trick/Reposition/Disarm etc are also 1 feat. Greater versions still apply to only one maneuver however. It doesn't really mean "scaling," but it helps let you spread out some feats if characters desire.


A good place to start as well would be to look over the "Kirthfinder" houserules doc. Most combat feats scale in it and might help you looking over it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Almost everything with the X-Improved X-Greater X nomenclature can be very easily made to scale by simply having X automatically improve to its Greater versions when the prerequisites are met.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Terms I've hear used: Condensed feats, Consolidated feats, Scaling feats.

By the way.. have you ever tried checking out just how many feats are tied to two weapon fighting? I did.. when I tried my hand at consolidating feats.

Here's the list (back then, not sure if there's more now):
- Two Weapon Fighting / Improved / Greater
- Double Slice
- Two-Weapon Rend
- Two-Weapon Defense
- Shield Slam / Bashing Finish
- Break Guard
- Two-Weapon Feint / Improved
- Net and Trident
- Sword and Pistol
- Twin Thunders / Flurry / Master

16 feats in total if you wanted to cover all your options (10-13 if you pick just a single weapon/combo).

That's ludicrously high to master a combat style.

Here's my attempt to condense the Two Weapon Combat Style down to 3 feats:

.
TWO WEAPON TECHNIQUE
You have trained in the skill of using a weapon in each hand in combat.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. You may also make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon for each iterative attack gained from high base attack bonus, using the same bonus as these attacks.
Improvements: If you are proficient with the net and are holding the line to an entangled target, you can drag or reposition the target as an attack action with that hand, and any attacks made with a weapon in your other hand against the target gains +2 attack and damage rolls.
If you are proficient with a one-handed or light firearm or any crossbow, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing that weapon from anyone you threaten with a melee weapon in your other hand.
Upon reaching +6 base attack bonus:
You may forgo your first primary hand melee attack to make a feint check against an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.
Upon reaching +11 base attack bonus:
If you have the Improved Shield Bash feat, you no longer suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with your shield while you are wielding another weapon, and add your shield's enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

.
OFF-HAND FETTER
You use an off-hand weapon in a defensive and distracting manner, blocking attacks and setting up disarming blows.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Two Weapon Technique
Benefits: When using a melee weapon in your off-hand, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +2 when fighing defensively or using the total defense action. You also gain the parry combat action.
Parry - If your forgo your off-hand attacks for the round, you may apply the off-hand weapon enhancement bonus as shield enhancement bonus to AC. If an opponent misses you with a melee attack due to your AC while you are parrying (10 + parry AC bonus), the attack is considered parried and you may make a feint action as an immediate action.
Improvements:
Upon reaching +3 base attack bonus:
You gain an additional attack of opportunity per round for each off-hand attack you give up when parrying. These extra attacks of opportunity can only be made with your off-hand weapon.
Upon reaching +6 base attack bonus:
When you parry an attack, you may spend an immediate action to make a disarm or sunder maneuver attempt with a primary-hand weapon. This maneuver is made with a +5 bonus, and sunder damage is doubled. Also, upon making a successful feint, you now cause the target to lose their Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.
Upon reaching +9 base attack bonus:
When you parry an attack, you may make a bull rush, disarm, feint or sunder maneuver as an attack of opportunity, using your off-hand weapon. You may not follow when making this bull rush action. Also, upon making a successful feint, you now cause the target to lose their Dexterity bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn.
Upon reaching +12 base attack bonus:
When you parry an attack, your opponent provokes a normal attack of opportunity from you. The attack of opportunity must be made using your off-hand weapon.

.
OFF-HAND ASSAULT
You have learned to make devastating off-hand combination attacks.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Strength 15, Two Weapon Technique
Benefits: You add your full Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon. You also gain the combination strike combat action.
Combination Strike - When you successfully hit with your off-hand weapon immediately after hitting with your primary-hand weapon, you deal additional damage on the off-hand attack equal to one half your base attack bonus.
Improvements:
Upon reaching +3 base attack bonus:
When you perform a combination strike, you can force a foe to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + half your base attack bonus + Strength) as a swift action. If they fail their saving throw, they are shaken for 1 round (until just before your next turn). If they are already shaken, they become staggered instead.
Upon reaching +6 base attack bonus:
When you perform a combination strike, you can make a trip attempt as a swift action against a larger creature, up to two sizes larger. The trip attempt is made using 1.5x your Strength.
Upon reaching +9 base attack bonus:
When you perform a combination strike, you may immediately make a rend attack as a swift action. This attack is made at your highest base attack bonus, and deals 1d6 points of slashing damage plus your Strength bonus.
Upon reaching +12 base attack bonus:
When you perform a combination strike, you may force a Fortitude saving throw as a free action, and if they are already staggered, they become dazed. If they are already dazed, they instead become stunned.
Upon reaching +15 base attack bonus:
Your rend damage is increased to 1d12 slashing damage plus 1-1/2 your Strength bonus.

.
----

I had also done the Ranged weapon feats (another giant list of feats by the way), and was planning on fleshing out feats for other combat styles: two-handed weapon, weapon and shield, empty offhand, mounted fighting, and mobile fighting. Possibly martial arts, but the style feats already opens up a lot for that (and can be more easily condensed).

I had also condensed the Maneuvers feats into one major feat:

.
MANEUVER TRAINING (COMBAT)
Your combat style includes a particular set of combat maneuvers at which you excel.
Benefit: Upon selecting this feat, you may choose a single combat style below, gaining improved ability with the listed maneuvers. You no longer provoke an Attack of Opportunity when performing these maneuvers. Feinting can be performed as a move action, and opponents cannot avoid your Overrun attempt. You may decide to use your Dexterity bonus instead of your Strength bonus on your CMB checks for these maneuvers.
Additionally, you gain a +2 bonus when performing or defending against these maneuvers.

Acrobatic - Bull Rush, Overrun, Reposition, Trip and one other choice.
Swashbuckling - Disarm, Feint, Reposition, Trip, and one other choice.
Powerhouse - Bull Rush, Drag, Grapple, Overrun and one other choice.
Tactical - Choose any 4.
Underhanded - Dirty Trick, Disarm, Feint, Steal, and one other choice.

Improvements:
Upon reaching a +6 base attack bonus:
Each combat maneuver in your chosen combat style gains the following additional improvements (see below). Also, the bonus to performing and defending against the maneuvers is increased by an additional +2 for every +6 base attack bonus you gain (+4 at 6 BAB, +6 at 12 BAB, and +8 at 18 BAB).

Bull Rush - Your victim's movement from bull rush provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies (but not you).
Dirty Trick - The penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 points you exceed the check. It takes a standard action to remove the penalty.
Disarm - Your victim's disarmed item lands 15 feet away in a random direction.
Drag - Your victim's movement from drag provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies (but not you).
Feint - Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn.
Grapple - Maintaining a grapple is now a move action, allowing you to make two grapple checks a round (although you only need to succeed at one to maintain the grapple).
Overrun - If your victim is knocked prone by your overrun, they provoke an attack of opportunity.
Reposition[i] - Your victim's movement from reposition provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies (but not you).
[i]Steal[i] - A stolen item is not discovered until the end of combat, or until the victim attempts to use it.
[i]Sunder
- When destroying an item, you may transfer any remaining damage to the wielder. This does not apply if you leave the item at 1 hitpoint.
Trip - You victim provokes an attack of opportunity on a successful trip.

Special: You may select Maneuver Training multiple times, selecting a different combat style each time. Bonuses from different styles overlap, they do not stack.

.
---

This is obviously a pretty big bump in power for feats. This was absolutely my intention. I wanted feats to be scaling in power, such that as you gained levels and feats, you gained more feats AND each feat gave more power... similar to magic.
Feats could then be a viable swap for magic (such as an archetype that trades out spellcasting ability for a set of feats, etc).

In that vein, I'd intended to bump up pretty much ALL feats such that they fit this scaling and level of power.
The intent was that if a feat didn't boost something that already scaled in power (such as adding an effect to your attacks, and you already gain more attacks with levels), then it should keep giving new things as you level up.

Here's a few General feats I'd come up with so far:

.
ENDURANCE
You have enhanced physical stamina; harsh conditions or long exertions do not affect you and you can withstand greater punishment.
Benefit: You gain +3 hit points. For every Hit Die you possess beyond 3, you gain an additional +1 hit point. If you have more than 3 Hit Dice, you gain +1 hit points whenever you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level).
In addition, you gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion; Constitution checks made to continue running; Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march; Constitution checks made to hold your breath; Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst; Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments; and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation.
Finally, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.
Improvements:
Upon reaching 2 Hit Dice:
You regain additional hit points equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum +1) when you regain hit points by resting or through magical healing. Also, you gain the recover action.
Recover - You gain a number of hit points equal to your Hit Dice per day that you may recover if you have been injured. As a swift action, you may recover as many hit points as you wish, up to your maximum. You regain these points with rest. You may recover as an immediate action in response to taking hit point damage.
Upon reaching 4 Hit Dice:
You roll twice against effects that cause nauseated or sickened conditions, and against poisons, taking the higher result.
Upon reaching 6 Hit Dice:
You may make a recover action to attempt a new saving throw against a harmful condition or affliction requiring a Fortitude save that is affecting you. You must spend a number of points equal to the DC of the effect - 10 to reroll. If this save against the affliction fails, there is no additional effect, but a successful save counts toward curing an affliction such as poison or disease. You cannot recover from instantaneous effects, effects that do not allow a saving throw, or effects that do not require a Fortitude save.
Upon reaching 9 Hit Dice:
You are able to ignore the effects of extreme temperatures, and do not need to roll saving throws for temperatures between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit. Also, you may sleep in heavy armor without becoming fatigued.
Upon reaching 12 Hit Dice:
You may use a recover action to delay the onset of a harmful condition or affliction (such as panicked, paralyzed, stunned and so on), including permanent and instantaneous conditions. You may use a single point to delay a single condition for 1 round. You may use additional points in a single recover action to delay additional conditions and to delay them for longer.

.
FINESSE EXPERTISE
You have trained in using your agility rather than brute strength for many aspects in combat.
Benefit: You may use Dexterity in place of Strength for your melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks. You may make a number of extra attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), and may make them flat-footed.
Improvements:
Upon reaching +1 base attack bonus:
You may forgo putting your strength behind the attack to aim for a more vital area. You may replace your Strength bonus with your Dexterity bonus to damage. A Strength penalty still applies. This is considered precision damage and is limited to point blank range (typically within 30').
Upon gaining 4 ranks in a Strength skill:
When using a Strength base skill (such as Climb or Swim), you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of Strength modifier for these checks.

.
HEIGHTENED DEFENSE
Due to specific training, or tough life experience, you are hardier than normal in some way.
Benefit: You may select one of the defensive options below.

Great Fortitude - You gain a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves.
Iron Will - You gain a +2 bonus to Will saves.
Lightning Reflexes - You gain a +2 bonus to Reflex saves.
Thick Skinned - You gain a +1 bonus to natural armor.

Improvements:
Upon reaching 3 Hit Dice:
You may use an alternate ability score towards your chosen defensive option, as follows:
Great Fortitude - You may use your Strength bonus instead of your Constitution bonus for Fortitude saving throws.
Iron Will - You may use your Charisma bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for Will saving throws.
Lightning Reflexes - You may use your Intelligence bonus instead of your Dexterity bonus for Reflex saving throws.
Thick Skinned - You may use your Constitution bonus instead of your Dexterity bonus to AC. This is treated as natural armor, instead of a dodge bonus.
In all cases, a penalty in the original ability score is still applied.
Upon reaching 6 Hit Dice:
You may reroll a failed save on your chosen save, or force a reroll on a successful critical hit against you if you chose Thick Skinned. This can be done once per day.
Upon reaching 10 Hit Dice:
You gain a further +2 to your save or natural armor.
Upon reaching 15 Hit Dice:
You may now always roll twice on your chosen saving throw, choosing the highest roll. If you have chosen Thick Skinned, you instead gain DR 5/- (or increase any existing DR by +5).

Note: You may select this feat more than once, selecting a different defensive option each time.

.
SKILL EXPERTISE
You have expanded your training on a particular skill set.
Benefit: Upon selecting this feat, choose a specific Training style. Choose a skill from the list and treat it as a class skill.

Academic - Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), and Profession (Wis).
Adventurer - Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Arcana - Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Socialite - Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Trickster - Bluff (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Stealth (Dex).

In addition, select a Focus and a Talent, and gain the benefits as listed.

Focus - You gain a +3 bonus to a single chosen skill.

Talent - Select a particular talent (see below). You gain a +2 bonus to the skills listed.

Acrobatic - Acrobatics and Fly
Alertness - Perception and Sense Motive
Animal Affinity - Handle Animal and Ride
Artisan - Appraise and all Craft
Athletic - Climb and Swim
Bookworm - All Knowledge and Linguistics
Deceitful - Bluff and Disguise
Deft Hands - Disable Device and Sleight of Hand
Magical Aptitude - Spellcraft and Use Magic Device
Persuasive - Diplomacy and Intimidate
Prodigy - All Perform and all Profession
Self-Sufficient - Heal and Survival
Stealthy - Escape Artist and Stealth

Improvements:
Upon reaching 5 Hit Dice:
You gain a skill trick from a skill that is in your selected Training style. You may select an additional skill trick every 5 additional Hit Dice.
Upon reaching 10 ranks in a Focus or Talent skill:
The bonus granted by your Focus and/or Talent is doubled (+6 for Focus, +4 for Talent).

Note: You may select this feat more than once. Each time, you may select a new Training style plus one class skill from any known Training styles, or choose three additional class skills from any known Training style. You also select another Focus and Talent, and gain an additional skill trick every 5 Hit Dice.

.
---

The intention was that you could pretty much excel at a single combat style using about one-third of your feats (3), toss in "viable" combat ability in one or two other combat styles, and still have half your feats for adding other things like a maneuver set, skill expertise, or other general feats like endurance or finesse expertise, etc.
It would allow for feats to really make a difference between characters. It also gives a huge boost to Fighters, who can afford to go into some nice General feat options (was planning on really boosting magical crafting for non-casters via a feat or two), while still maintaining major combat ability across his class features.

Not sure if this is the level of feat scaling you were thinking of, but hopefully it can at least give some ideas.

Liberty's Edge

Interesting!

You might also check out the Scaling Combat Feats section in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press.


Bandw2 wrote:
the monstrosity that is the ranged weapon feat chain...

Ah, yeah.. here's what I did for that one:

RANGED TECHNIQUE
You are well trained in ranged combat.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage against enemies within point-blank range (typically 30'). Also, you no longer suffer the standard -4 penalty for making a ranged attack at an enemy engaged in melee.
Improvements:
If you have the Mounted Combat feat, you suffer half the penalties for using a ranged weapon while your mount is moving: -2 (instead of -4) when your mount makes a double move, and -4 (instead of -8) when your mount is running.
If you have the Mobility feat, you may make a ranged attack at any point during your rush movement action.
Upon reaching +3 base attack bonus:
You only suffer a -1 penalty per full range increment between you and your target when using ranged attacks. You also gain the focused shot combat action.
Focused Shot - As a standard action, you may make an attack with a ranged weapon and add your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll. This attack must be made within point-blank range, and is considered precision damage.
Upon reaching +6 base attack bonus:
When making a focused shot, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. Also, if you have the Mobility feat, you may choose to provoke an attack of opportunity from one or more opponents who threaten you, but gain an additional +4 dodge bonus to AC against such attacks. An opponent that makes such an attack and misses you loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against you until the end of your turn.
Upon reaching +9 base attack bonus:
You may make a focused shot on your first attack in a full attack.

.
PRECISE TARGETING
You excel at making precision shots, threading the needle every time.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Ranged Technique, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by normal, soft and partial cover, as well as concealment of 20% or less.
Improvements:
If you have the Blind-Fight feat, you gain the ricochet shot combat action.
Ricochet Shot - As a standard action, you can make a ranged attack at a wall or piece of solid terrain, and have it ricochet off. When you do, use the square immediately in front of the wall or piece of solid terrain to determine line of sight to a target, and this square is considered the new origin square of the attack. Use that square to determine the effects of cover, and your own square to determine the effects of concealment.
Upon reaching +9 base attack bonus:
You reduce damage reduction applied to your ranged attacks by 2 for each successful ranged attack you made against the same target in the round.
Upon reaching +11 base attack bonus:
You ignore anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment.
Upon reaching +16 base attack bonus:
When you make a focused shot, your target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class.

.
RAPID FIRE
You can send out a barrage of ranged attacks.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Ranged Technique
Benefit: When making a full attack action, you may shoot twice for every ranged attack. All attacks made this round are at a -2 penalty. As these shots are loaded and fired quickly, they only apply one-half Strength damage (if the weapon would normally allow it), and the damage is reduced by one step (for example, a longbow would be reduced from 1d8 to 1d6 for a Medium sized creature).
Improvements: If you are proficient with firearms or crossbows, you may reload such weapons on step faster. For example, a full round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action allowing multiple attacks in a round.

---

Note, I'd been working on refining some combat factors, such as "point blank range" becoming a specific term, so that some features could expand point blank range out further (such as a sniper class or feature). Hence the wording used in my feats.


I just replace ranged weapon ranges with spell ranges.

Throwing weapons and are mostly close, shortbows hand crossbows, pistols shotguns and a few especially distant thrown weapons are Medium, and longbows, full crossbows and rifles are long.


These were some ideas I had:

Skill Focus and Talent Feats
I've heard that feats that don't allow you to do something you could not have before are not worth while. So what if feats like Skill Focus and Acrobatics allow grants their relevant skills as class skills or grant you skill unlocks if they are already class skills?

Save Unlocks - Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude allows you to add your bonus to a statistic for the duration of an encounter. You can make this choice as a free action but you cannot change it until the next encounter.

Iron Will

* Add your will bonus to Perception and Sense motive checks.
* Add your will bonus to Concentration Checks

Lightning Reflex

* Add your reflex bonus Acrobatics and Escape Artist Checks.
* Add your reflex bonus as a dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity.
* Add your reflex bonus to your Initiative

Great Fortitude - not sure yet.


kirthfinder is a place to investigate.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Automatically Improving Feats All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules