Should Zelekhut Inevitable be a higher CR?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I've been running my friends through some homemade campaigns (because I'm far too broke to afford a premade one even though they look awesome) who are currently 5 PC's at level 8. Upto this point they've been handling CR+2 to CR+3 above them without to much difficulty. Then I threw a Zelekhut at them. Its a CR 9 with an AC of 24, hp at 115, and hits at +17 for 6d6+14 on a full round attack.

Those stats weren't the problem, the problem is it is DR 10/Chaotic, and SR 20. I've yet to find a PC that is actively prepared to handle this. Nobody carries Chaotic weapons, nobody prepares spells that add Chaotic to a weapon, nobody prepares protection from Law in a good campaign. On top of that is has true seeing to negate invisibility and dimensional anchor which prevented my party from escaping to prepare better. Which makes me wonder is CR 9 to low for this creature?

I don't want to hear any, all you have to do is prepare these random spells or do this random thing. The point I'm making is that the counters to this creature aren't things that are prepared by a party at level 8-9. So imo it should probably be CR 11-13, but what does everyone else think?

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary2/inevitable.html#inevitable-zel ekhut


It's numbers seem in line with the CR. CR+11 is standard for SR values. I'm not sure when DR jumps from 5 to 10 (the CR 8 Erinyes devil is DR 5), but around there isn't out of the question.

The fact that your spellcasters haven't started investing in SR beaters quite yet isn't surprising, but it's not unusual to have to deal with it at that level, either.


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A not-rare Two Hander Melee PC at level 8 should reliably hit that AC 24 and blow through that DR 10 even without a bypass weapon. Add in buffs from any of the various support options and its rapidly cut, print, done. Other options also can do similarly.

Sometimes a monster simply has a very effective combo vs a specific party. It sounds like this one was as such for your group.


I will suggest to them some spells that aren't affected by SR. I will say, no single stat on the Zelekhut makes it OP, rather its that it has no major weakness's, except chaotic which who carries a chaotic weapon?

Yah the two melee's could reliably hit AC 24, and do damage past the DR 10, but with 115 health and doing 6d6+14 damage, the Zelekhut was winning in straight up melee combat.


You forgot regeneration 5 (chaotic). How are they gonna kill it? ;)


Using the Average Statistics by CR from the Bestiary:

HP: exactly on the number. (115)
AC: one above. (24)
Primary attack: exactly the number on the chart for a full BAB outsider. (17)
Average Damage: on a full attack, average damage is actually 35, 5 less than the listed 40.
Primary Ability DC: doesn't really have any special abilities besides SLAs, which all seem to be around the target value of 18.
Saves (Fort and Will good, Ref bad): actually fairly close, with good being two points below and bad being on the mark.

So, overall, this monster belongs at CR 9. Now, it might be one of those monsters that aren't really suited to a APL+4 fight, but +4 is an "epic" fight.

The DR is going to be tough for 5th level melee types if they're not two-handing, and even two-handers will feel it.
Not many spellcasters are gonna have more than a +10 to pierce SR, which means a 50% (or less) chance of affecting the monster.

Honestly, this inevitable seems like the sort of monster that any party that faces it should be prepared for, if only because you know it's coming for you.
It isn't suited for the "wandering monster" role, if only because of the inevitables' unique role in-world.

TLDR; don't throw this randomly at a 5th level party and expect it to go well.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This creature is certainly on the upper-end of defenses for a CR 9 creature, but I don't think it is altogether worth an increase to CR. Any creature faced by a completely unprepared party with defenses and abilities that negate their strengths is going to give them a run for their money. The main difficulty to permanently defeating this thing is suppressing the Regeneration. DR/Chaos is only beaten by Anarchic weapons, +5 weapons, and abilities that specifically bypass it, of which there are few. Fortunately there is a solution. Beat it down below 0 HP or otherwise make it Helpless. You could use spells like Glitterdust which don't allow SR, and on a typical full caster with 22 INT/CHA you can Persistent Glitterdust for a 55% pass rate with no further boosts to DC (Spell Focus reduces it to 50%, an Arcanist can #boostit for a 42% pass rate, and a dedicated save-or-suck caster could potentially get even lower). Alternatively you could go for the Hail Mary and use Persistent Ghoul Touch - beating SR is a cinch with just Spell Penetration / being an elf and a Dweomer Essence, passing on a 5 or better - and if you pass the enemy is -paralyzed- in "Please Coup De Grace Me" position for 1d6+1 rounds.

Once the enemy is below 0hp or "dead", have your highest-damage martial take a weapon with a huge crit multiplier (always carry a scythe) and continue Coup de Grace-ing its body while the others dig a grave. Bury it in said grave, and it will eventually suffocate.

d20pfsrd wrote:
Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Problem solved.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Also keep in mind that the Zelekhut Inevitable doesn't have Power Attack, and with 2 attacks a round at 2d6+7+1d6 Electric your best bet at surviving is to buff with any combination of Stoneskin, Fly, Mirror Image, and Resist Energy. With just Stoneskin and Resist Energy up he deals 2d6-3 per hit, averaging around 3 damage. Fly negates his ability to Trip, and with so few attacks a round Mirror Image can easily buy you a few turns to think or set up something. His offense is actually pretty weak. Your group was simply caught unprepared.


LuniasM wrote:

This creature is certainly on the upper-end of defenses for a CR 9 creature, but I don't think it is altogether worth an increase to CR. Any creature faced by a completely unprepared party with defenses and abilities that negate their strengths is going to give them a run for their money. The main difficulty to permanently defeating this thing is suppressing the Regeneration. DR/Chaos is only beaten by Anarchic weapons, +5 weapons, and abilities that specifically bypass it, of which there are few. Fortunately there is a solution. Beat it down below 0 HP or otherwise make it Helpless. You could use spells like Glitterdust which don't allow SR, and on a typical full caster with 22 INT/CHA you can Persistent Glitterdust for a 55% pass rate with no further boosts to DC (Spell Focus reduces it to 50%, an Arcanist can #boostit for a 42% pass rate, and a dedicated save-or-suck caster could potentially get even lower). Alternatively you could go for the Hail Mary and use Persistent Ghoul Touch - beating SR is a cinch with just Spell Penetration / being an elf and a Dweomer Essence, passing on a 5 or better - and if you pass the enemy is -paralyzed- in "Please Coup De Grace Me" position for 1d6+1 rounds.

Once the enemy is below 0hp or "dead", have your highest-damage martial take a weapon with a huge crit multiplier (always carry a scythe) and continue Coup de Grace-ing its body while the others dig a grave. Bury it in said grave, and it will eventually suffocate.

d20pfsrd wrote:
Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
Problem solved.

At least until some poor soul accidentally digs it up looking for turnips. Then he'll have one angry outsider on his hands. :D

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

The constant true seeing is powerful against PCs, because it negates many defenses that the PCs might have, such as blur, displacement, mirror image, illusory wall, and improved invisibility, but I don't think the monster is overpowered. Heck, glitterdust could mess with it, and many PCs will have at least one dose of oil of align weapon. What you may be experiencing is that your particular group has not yet developed the techniques to effectively fight that particular monster. Players often need to learn to counter things like SR, flight, various form of DR, poison, and certain spells, that doesn't happen until they fight a monster that threatens them with those abilities.

There are certainly monsters that are too tough for their CR though. A death squad of four CR 7 sceaduinars (A 9th level encounter) would be much more dangerous, what with their anti-life shells protecting them while they blast the players with enervation before casting deeper darkness, and then using their life sense to attack players blinded in the midst of the deeper darkness with their harm and slay living spells.


CR should be based on the its a wondering monster, you know its coming should be for APL+4 and up, but CR should always be based on its a wondering monster. Also @bigrig107 they are all level 8, and there are 5 of them, not level 5 characters. @LuniasM, you say beat it down to 0 hp like that's easy. Glitterdust blinds him if he fails a will save, but he has +10 to his will save, so the chances of him failing are going to be below 50% for an 8th level caster.


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Oh, there are 5 PCs, and they're all 8th level?

This thing shouldn't even be a serious threat for halfway-competent characters at that level.
There's no way your dedicated melee characters aren't dealing at least 10 hit points each turn, especially if there's a two-handed among them.
Your spellcasters should have a much easier chance at penetrating SR 20, what with stat bonuses around +5-+6, they need a 6-7 on the dice to get through that (even less with elf or Spell Penetration). That means their whole spell selection is on the table, which means this thing dies quick.


bigrig107 wrote:

Oh, there are 5 PCs, and they're all 8th level?

This thing shouldn't even be a serious threat for halfway-competent characters at that level.
There's no way your dedicated melee characters aren't dealing at least 10 hit points each turn, especially if there's a two-handed among them.
Your spellcasters should have a much easier chance at penetrating SR 20, what with stat bonuses around +5-+6, they need a 6-7 on the dice to get through that (even less with elf or Spell Penetration). That means their whole spell selection is on the table, which means this thing dies quick.

Stat bonuses don't help with SR. You only get your caster level + any outside bonuses, such as feats.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
LuniasM wrote:

This creature is certainly on the upper-end of defenses for a CR 9 creature, but I don't think it is altogether worth an increase to CR. Any creature faced by a completely unprepared party with defenses and abilities that negate their strengths is going to give them a run for their money. The main difficulty to permanently defeating this thing is suppressing the Regeneration. DR/Chaos is only beaten by Anarchic weapons, +5 weapons, and abilities that specifically bypass it, of which there are few. Fortunately there is a solution. Beat it down below 0 HP or otherwise make it Helpless. You could use spells like Glitterdust which don't allow SR, and on a typical full caster with 22 INT/CHA you can Persistent Glitterdust for a 55% pass rate with no further boosts to DC (Spell Focus reduces it to 50%, an Arcanist can #boostit for a 42% pass rate, and a dedicated save-or-suck caster could potentially get even lower). Alternatively you could go for the Hail Mary and use Persistent Ghoul Touch - beating SR is a cinch with just Spell Penetration / being an elf and a Dweomer Essence, passing on a 5 or better - and if you pass the enemy is -paralyzed- in "Please Coup De Grace Me" position for 1d6+1 rounds.

Once the enemy is below 0hp or "dead", have your highest-damage martial take a weapon with a huge crit multiplier (always carry a scythe) and continue Coup de Grace-ing its body while the others dig a grave. Bury it in said grave, and it will eventually suffocate.

d20pfsrd wrote:
Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
Problem solved.
At least until some poor soul accidentally digs it up looking for turnips. Then he'll have one angry outsider on his hands. :D

Nope. As I quoted, damage caused by suffocation can't be regenerated. It also isn't negated by DR. What this means is that the moment it fails a DC10+X Fortitude save (where X is the number of rounds spent buried) it begins suffocating and drops to 0 HP. The round after it would fall to -1 HP, and on Round 3 it would die. With a +12 Fortitude bonus this creature has a 1% chance of succeeding 14 consecutive saves at increasing DCs. Just ensure that its damage is at least at -86 by the time you completely cover its face and it will almost certainly die before the Regeneration heals it enough to bring it to consciousness. Even if it could, it would still need to escape somehow, and it can't teleport so it would have to dig itself out. That isn't very likely.

Silver Crusade

"Not restoring hit-points from starvation, thirst, or suffocation" and dying because those shut your Regeneration off are two different things.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Statboy wrote:
Glitterdust blinds him if he fails a will save, but he has +10 to his will save, so the chances of him failing are going to be below 50% for an 8th level caster.

That's true but there is only one inevitable and 5 PCs, so if did fail that save even once, it would take a serious beating.

Other CR 9 monsters are just as tough. Look out for the Leukodaemon, especially if you are not ready to counteract disease. Just a few weeks ago I almost TPK'ed a party of five 14th level PCs with a small group of those things.


Only being able to deal 10 damage a turn, X2 melee'ers is 20 damage after DR, that is about right for what they were doing. Meanwhile the Zelekhut regens 5 of that each rnd, and deals 6d6+14 for an average of 24.5 per turn. So the PC's are doing about half the damage the Zelekhut is. While the Zelekhut has much more health at the start of the fight.

I'm not saying any one thing about the Zelekhut makes him OP, rather that taken on a whole, he has no easily exploitable weakness that any group could handle. You're relying on some very specific spells or weapons to be on hand, that range from 50% chance that a group will have it, to 1% chance because its so freaking specialized nobody prepares for it.

Though you guys are giving me some good stuff to talk to my PC's about to help them be more prepared for anything.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

LuniasM wrote:
Alternatively you could go for the Hail Mary and use Persistent Ghoul Touch - beating SR is a cinch with just Spell Penetration / being an elf and a Dweomer Essence, passing on a 5 or better - and if you pass the enemy is -paralyzed- in "Please Coup De Grace Me" position for 1d6+1 rounds.

Inevitables are all immune to paralysis, because of their constructed quality. They are tough, but I think the Zelekhut is only CR 9 tough.


Haste is a common not-niche buff that further increases how much damage a pair of melee can dish out. When you run into hard to bypass SR, its easy to toss buff spells instead. they don't care about the enemy's SR.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
moon glum wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
Alternatively you could go for the Hail Mary and use Persistent Ghoul Touch - beating SR is a cinch with just Spell Penetration / being an elf and a Dweomer Essence, passing on a 5 or better - and if you pass the enemy is -paralyzed- in "Please Coup De Grace Me" position for 1d6+1 rounds.
Inevitables are all immune to paralysis, because of their constructed quality. They are tough, but I think the Zelekhut is only CR 9 tough.

Did not know that. Seems like going for the Glitterdust blindness is best to give you more time then.

Rysky wrote:
"Not restoring hit-points from starvation, thirst, or suffocation" and dying because those shut your Regeneration off are two different things.

So instead of dying you presume that it lays dormant at -Con HP forever until someone comes along, digs it up, and starts healing it? Reasonable, but I call that effectively dead. Would make for an interesting development down the line if someone did though.

Silver Crusade

LuniasM wrote:
So instead of dying you presume that it lays dormant at -Con HP forever until someone comes along, digs it up, and starts healing it? Reasonable, but I call that effectively dead. Would make for an interesting development down the line if someone did though.

*nods*

I believe this is the Tarrasque's whole shtick.


LuniasM wrote:
So instead of dying you presume that it lays dormant at -Con HP forever until someone comes along, digs it up, and starts healing it? Reasonable, but I call that effectively dead. Would make for an interesting development down the line if someone did though.

They aren't called inevitable for nothing. Though what if the party that buried it had died in the meantime? Would it go plane-hopping through the various afterlifes looking for them?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Statboy wrote:
@LuniasM, you say beat it down to 0 hp like that's easy. Glitterdust blinds him if he fails a will save, but he has +10 to his will save, so the chances of him failing are going to be below 50% for an 8th level caster.

As an aside, I realized while looking through the subtype that even though Outsiders do need to breath as normal, the Constructed traits specify that it is immune to Nonlethal damage and effects which require a Fortitude save unless they normally affect objects. Even though they are not specifically immune to suffocation, an Inevitable is technically immune to all the effects of suffocation since they auto-pass the Fort saves. Burying the Inevitable is then not a potential solution unless you can penalize its ability checks by 3 for an extended period of time, since a DC 25 STR check allows it to unbury itself. This means the new best method to finish it off for good is the old-fashioned "CdG it repeatedly while someone heads to town to purchase a Chaotic weapon or prepare new spells".

Well, yeah, I say beat it down to 0 like it's easy. A Level 8 Fighter with 20 STR and a +2 weapon can deal 2d6+21 damage (assumes STR 20, a +2 Greatsword, Power Attack, and Weapon Specialization) per swing at +14/+9. DPR is 16.83 after DR. That's with no buffs assumed, at a fairly standard optimization level. Haste alone bumps that up to 25.69 per round. An Inquisitor bypasses DR with Smiting Judgement and has a DPR of 31.79 with Bane active and no buffs - with Haste he solos the Zelekhut in 2 rounds. A Barbarian has DPR 13.81, 30.69 with Haste. Point is, the math shows that a single 2-handing martial character with Haste can deal enough damage to "kill" this thing in roughly 5 turns (since Regen heals 5 per turn), and this is a party of 5 people! DR 10 and Regen 5 is tough on TWF and archery builds (since they don't get Clustered Shots until Level 9 without bonus feats) but all it does to a 2-Hander is delay the inevitable (hahaha).

As for the Glitterdust, I thought his saves were +12 on the good ones, so it's even easier than I thought. With INT/CHA 22 (either start with 18+2 Headband+2 Level or start at 16-17+4 Headband+2 Level) you have a DC 18 Glitterdust without any further optimization (such as Spell Focus or class features). At Level 8 any full-caster can Persistant Spell this, forcing the Inevitable to roll an 8 or better twice - the chances of this occurring are 42.25%. If one of the characters in the party can Intimidate (and out of 5 it's likely that someone can do so with a decent chance to succeed, given the DC is 23 and full ranks + a class skill gives +11 as a baseline) the Shaken debuff decreases the chances of saving twice to 30% - almost a 1/3 shot. This blinds the Zelekhut for 8 rounds, making his attacks miss that much more often and decreasing his AC by 7 (-2 and loses Dex to AC).

And that's just on the offense side. Good defensive buffs can significantly reduce or even negate this thing's offense - Fly prevents it from Tripping you, Stoneskin reduces its damage to 3d6-3 per hit (average 7), Resist Energy removes 2d6 damage per round, Mirror Image should give 4 images on average and negate 2 rounds of attacks, Nondetection forces a DC 23 CL check for its True Sight to locate you while Invisible (it needs a 13 or better to pass). The tricky part is the At-Will Dispel Magic SLA - it can't be interrupted, and with a CL 10 it has a 60% chance to succeed. Take advantage of any turns spent dispelling to debuff or damage it, and make it regret spending that decision.

Other strategies include using Blindness/Deafness (allows SR but better duration than Glitterdust), Paragon Surge (take Expanded Arcana on Spontaneous casters to get any spell, or Preferred Spell on Prepared casters to spontaneously cast any one spell you know but didn't prepare), Slow (Will, allows SR, but if it fails it loses its ability to chase and one of its attacks), Rusting Grasp (3d6+8 damage per hit, 1/round, and can be used to lower AC as well - no save, and no SR either), Ablative Sphere (at 24 HP vs 2d6+3 this typically protects you from 3 attacks outright, granting various levels of Cover in the meantime while you find a solution), Aqueous Orb (Reflex or Entangled and can't move), Disable Construct (Will or Helpless for 1 round/level, it gets additional saves but it doesn't take many CdGs to reduce HP to negative values), and Warp Metal (Will or -4 to attack rolls).

Note that I'm not min-maxing or powergaming here. I used what is assumed for a character at Level 8, and I didn't do anything to bypass the DR (the Inquisitor has it native to its class, but has similar numbers to the Fighter without Smiting Judgement). Your party APL is 8, facing a single CR 9 creature with stats roughly equivalent to other CR 9 creatures. Nothing about this fight screams "difficult" - it sounds to me like your players were caught unprepared against an enemy who had defenses which gave their specific character builds a lot of trouble. I'm interested to hear what classes your players were using at the time, and what they were each built for.


None of my level 8 PC have the stats you mention, one is a Dex build fighter so his strength is bad and the casters are only at 20 for there casting stats. You are assuming that the PC's are all power players who care more about optimized builds than fun builds, and who have access to every item in the game. When they go to a city I roll for what goods are for sale. They have created most of there best items. They all have a less than 50% chance of overcoming SR, yet you keep quoting SR spells as being good.


Sounds like the magic item assumption has raised its head again. Enemies are built assuming the big six, but PCs have no guarantee of getting them. I use the ABP from Unchained to avoid this, but it has some other issues.

It's probably my biggest complaint with PF. Stat-boosting items are very desirable, everyone gets one, the enemies need buffed to compensate, now anyone who didn't get a stat-booster needs one even more, the cycle continues.

As it stands, a zelekhut is an appropriate challenge for CR 9, but that assumes the players have access to every magic item from the core book at least. Maybe treating your party one level lower, as if they weren't at standard Wealth by Level, would help?

And don't bring in the "power vs. fun" nonsense. LuniasM wasn't bringing up cheese numbers, but literally the numbers the CR system expects you to have at that level. Your players sound fine to me, and I love rolling for items in towns, but the game itself is built for a certain level. It's a big flaw, you just saw it yourself.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Statboy wrote:
None of my level 8 PC have the stats you mention, one is a Dex build fighter so his strength is bad and the casters are only at 20 for there casting stats. You are assuming that the PC's are all power players who care more about optimized builds than fun builds, and who have access to every item in the game. When they go to a city I roll for what goods are for sale. They have created most of there best items. They all have a less than 50% chance of overcoming SR, yet you keep quoting SR spells as being good.

Let's take another look at what I assumed. The following examples of a Level 8 2H build were given:

Lunias wrote:
20 STR and a +2 weapon

Okay, so you start with a 17, get a +2 Belt, and put one of your 2 level-ups into your main damage stat. At Level 8 you have 33k according to Pathfinder's assumed WBL, so purchasing a 4k belt and an 8k weapon is less than half your WBL. This is fairly standard and is even in line with the stats given for Automatic Bonus Progression.

Lunias wrote:
+2 Greatsword, Power Attack, and Weapon Specialization

So one of the better martial weapons (although the specific weapon isn't important to the demonstration as static numbers matter most), the Power Attack feat by Level 8 on a character with 9 feats and no spells, and Weapon Specialization (which also requires Weapon Focus). I have now assumed a grand total of 12k in gear and 3 feats, which are roughly 1/3 of your resources as a Level 8 Fighter. Nothing unusual or over-the-top here.

Aaaand... that's it. So I assume access to 2 common items and three feats that most melee fighters (STR-based ones, anyway) take by Level 8. Oh, but your group's Fighter is a Dex build with lower damage? The only Dex-based 2H builds I know of use Unchained Rogue since they're the only ones that benefit, unless you mean Spear-Dancing Style (which is more of a TWF-based style than 2H). Lower damage is to be expected if you're not using STR.

And for a spellcaster at Level 8 I assumed the following:

Lunias wrote:
INT/CHA 22

There are 2 ways to do this - start with an 18 (high end for most characters, but a full caster can achieve this without dumping stats so w/e) and put both level ups into your casting stat (fairly common) then purchase a +2 Headband for 4k (common gear), or start as low as a 16 and put both level ups into your casting stat then purchase a +4 Headband for 16k. The second method costs roughly half your WBL and is thus not an illegal purchase - for a caster focusing on spells this is not an uncommon purchase, even if they are rushing it a bit to do so. Neither of these is difficult to do on any given spellcaster, although multiclassing can make other stats more important. Your players only have a 20 in their casting stat? That drops the DC by 1 overall and affects the percentages a bit (49% chance on Persistant Glitterdust and 36% with the Shaken condition), but not by an appreciable amount. And on that note:

Lunias wrote:
Persistant Spell

One of the most reliable metamagic feats in the game, and a staple for debuffing and control-based builds. Out of 4 feats, spending 1 on this isn't a huge investment to deal with high saves.

So nothing ridiculous here either. What about the Intimidate stuff?

Lunias wrote:

High Intimidate[/i]

Do I have to explain this one? Out of 5 people, does anyone have ranks in Intimidate? Did they put at least 1/level to keep up with DCs? Then my numbers are accurate.

Lunias wrote:

Circlet of Persuasion[/i]

For 4.2k, a +3 to all Charisma-based stats is very, very useful for social skills and UMD. It's not necessarily needed for any given character, but it's a nice item to have and gives players more incentive to get chatty with NPCs since their social skills are better (this is an issue I've seen many people run into, even though it isn't necessarily fair).

And in my previous post:

Lunias wrote:
Spell Penetration / being an elf and a Dweomer Essence

Again, not necessary, but a very common feat for offensive casters and a 500gp consumable? That's doesn't exactly scream "OP powergamer why can't you just have fun and stop rollplaying".

The rest of what I posted were suggestions on different spells available - I have numbers both with and without Haste, with and without Hatred, multiple classes of characters, and didn't assume anything other than what I put here. I used roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the given feats and WBL and didn't even make the builds class-specific - take a look at the three martial 2H ones I made and you'll find they're pretty similar (except for Smiting Judgement, which was a pleasant surprise). There's plenty of room to customize the character with interesting feats and items, choose a class (or combination of classes) which further expresses the character, and none of it is limited in alignment, region, or other RP-related decisions. So where exactly do I assume the PCs are "power players who care more about optimized builds than fun builds"? Where did I assume "access to every item in the game"? I referenced five commonplace items, three of which are assumed by Pathfinder's CR system (the belt, headband, and weapon).

My grasp of the numbers does not limit my ability to play a fun build. If anything I can have more fun because once I hit my baseline I can be secure knowing I have the freedom to do what I want without reducing my contribution to the party.

If your players aren't even remotely optimized, that impacts their APL. If they don't have access to basic items, that impacts their APL. They don't seem like incapable characters from what little description you gave (Dex-based fighter and 20-stat casters), but if they don't have basic items like +2 belts/headbands/weapons or basic feats like Power Attack and Spell Penetration of course they're going to have a hard time against an inevitable! The majority on this thread seem to agree that the Zelekhut isn't under-CR, so the issue almost certainly stems from the PCs.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ugh. Formatting issues. And now I can't fix it.

Let this be a reminder to all to not type out long responses to posts in the 20 minutes you have after your shift but before the manager locks up for the night.


Statboy wrote:
None of my level 8 PC have the stats you mention, one is a Dex build fighter so his strength is bad and the casters are only at 20 for there casting stats. You are assuming that the PC's are all power players who care more about optimized builds than fun builds, and who have access to every item in the game. When they go to a city I roll for what goods are for sale. They have created most of there best items. They all have a less than 50% chance of overcoming SR, yet you keep quoting SR spells as being good.

Not every table needs to be optimized - but the rules do assume a certain amount of power growth, and that most characters will be at least pretty good at what they want to do (by this, I mean "not perfectly maximized for something, but not totally ignoring it, either"). Part of this is investing their WBL in certain ways, and the "Big 6" are kind of assumed in the math.

If your players tend to run below the expected level - and there is nothing wrong with that - you may need to weaken enemies a bit more. In particular, try to avoid throwing anything at them that they don't have a counter for, and consider reducing the challenge of encounters to compensate.


LuniasM wrote:
As an aside, I realized while looking through the subtype that even though Outsiders do need to breath as normal, the Constructed traits specify that it is immune to Nonlethal damage and effects which require a Fortitude save unless they normally affect objects. Even though they are not specifically immune to suffocation, an Inevitable is technically immune to all the effects of suffocation since they auto-pass the Fort saves. Burying the Inevitable is then not a potential solution unless you can penalize its ability checks by 3 for an extended period of time, since a DC 25 STR check allows it to unbury itself. This means the new best method to finish it off for good is the old-fashioned "CdG it repeatedly while someone heads to town to purchase a Chaotic weapon or prepare new spells".

Good news that they never suffocate, but I really wish that had just been black and white in the Constructed trait along with no food or water from Outsider. Things like this shouldn't have any bodily functions. Just justice-doling machines.


An alchemist would trash this thing pretty quickly.

Sovereign Court

Wow, what crime did they commit to get that thing hunting them?

SR for monsters is usually high like that, otherwise it tends to be very trivial.

It's a rough fight but it's what you find around that level. Shouldn't have been a TPK or anything of the sort on them though.


Things that typical parties should be employing at level 8 to address generic challenges (i.e. not something "random and specific" to the Zelekhut):

  • Having some means of utilizing Align Weapon to bypass alignment issues. Scrolls, wands, oils, or prepared spells are all viable options. Wands of Align Weapon cost 4500gp. WBL at level 8 is 33,000gp roughly and you could split the wand 5 ways as a party resource for 900gp contribution per person to the success of the group.
  • Carrying 1-2 Dweomer's Essence to address any high SR monsters if you are a dedicated caster. As an alternative, casters can utilize Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration to meet these needs, or use items/abilities that increase the caster level of their spells. Spell Penetration is EXTREMELY common among casters that target enemies.
  • "Barbarian, coup de grace that thing repeatedly until I've had time to prepare [relevant spell]." - any prepared caster should be keeping some number of slots open per day to adjust to the needs of the particular adventure. The party meat should have a x4 or x3 weapon available to handle this task, which won't kill the target if it has Regeneration, but will make it take a LONG time to come back.
  • Have someone who can deal consistently high damage. If you can't bypass the DR with a material or alignment, make sure someone can just run that number over.

If all else fails remember that creatures have limits. A zelekhut lacks the ability to teleport or otherwise escape prisons short of slowly damaging them. Knock it unconscious with damage, dig a hole, and bury him with something such that he can't swing his arms. Suddenly, those chains aren't doing things.

Liberty's Edge

Uh...who says Good PCs don't have a way to get through DR/Chaotic?

My 7th level Mummy's Mask group does, after all our Oracle is CG and has Align Weapon. And even for groups without such a fortuitous advantage, I've seldom seen groups of that level who don't invest in some way to do this and similar niche cases. After all, DR/Chaotic and DR/Lawful do crop up upon occasion, some way to get through them is very much a good idea and one every party should probably arrange via consumables if nothing else.

And even without that, as others have noted, DR 10 isn't enough to actually stop PC damage at that level using a two-handed weapon. It slows down the killing of the foe in question, but doesn't stop it by any means.


My mummy mask's party defeated a zelekut. It's tough, but not impossible.
The cleric had a Summon Monster III and Align Weapon prepared (the campaign had a bunch of undead earlier) and it went down fast (maybe 7 or 8 rounds).
I didnt make him focus in a single person though (it made no sense to), he alternated between full attacks and SLA's.
And im fairly sure they threw two nets at him.

Sovereign Court

Rathendar wrote:
Haste is a common not-niche buff that further increases how much damage a pair of melee can dish out. When you run into hard to bypass SR, its easy to toss buff spells instead. they don't care about the enemy's SR.

By level 8, especially in a largish group, Haste should be thrown out for nearly every decent fight. It's just a really good spell.

Really - it sounds like this a low-op group fighting their first pretty tough foe with abilities that they should have prepped for.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Rathendar wrote:
Haste is a common not-niche buff that further increases how much damage a pair of melee can dish out. When you run into hard to bypass SR, its easy to toss buff spells instead. they don't care about the enemy's SR.

By level 8, especially in a largish group, Haste should be thrown out for nearly every decent fight. It's just a really good spell.

Really - it sounds like this a low-op group fighting their first pretty tough foe with abilities that they should have prepped for.

Yeah, I think my numbers above should've demonstrated the power of that buff pretty well. It's a significant offense bump and even grants a bit of additional defense, plus you can use it on your whole party at once.


Remember, every party has access to the most useful spell of all:

"Withdraw"

Run away, and live to fight another day. Now, with this particular monster it's a little tricky because it'll probably follow you and it probably outspeeds the party. But with some clever thinking, you should be able to get away from it, unless you're locked away in a dungeon with no exit (except past the creature), which is just plain unfortunate for a newer, less prepared group. But assuming the players get away, they should be able to track down scrolls that can make their weapon work the right way, or, if they don't know what the creature is, some bard to make a knowledge roll for them (investing in NPC contacts is a pretty smart thing to do! Actually doubly so since you roll for basic magic item availability, so they'd need to track down a cleric. Still possible.). Now, they can fight the enemy on their own terms, maybe even set a trap for it. Chances are, they'll also get emotionally involved in beating this monster, and that's a good thing.

You don't have to powergame, but sometimes you do have to play smart. (Again, can't always retreat, but here is where rewarding clever thinking in general is probably a good plan). Pull your punches a bit if they are trying to escape, as it shows they've recognized they are in over their head and aren't just trying to brute force overpower the enemy. In the worse case scenario, someone might have to die in the process of escape, but the creature should be momentarily satisfied and let the others escape... for the moment.

But really, the CR system IS more of a guideline more than anything, and in the case of Outsiders, my rule of thumb is that if my players aren't used to dealing with Outsiders at lower levels, to treat them as if they WERE a CR level higher (for purposes of predicting difficulty). It's the same thing as the first time players encounter a Swarm- if the players are all new to swarms and no one has Burning Hands, expect swarms to be painful until people get used to them. Provided you explain what went wrong (lack of alignment spells, lack of consistent damage, lack of spell penetration), the players should walk away from encounters like this with a better idea of what to do next time.

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