Other ways of closing the gap? I'm all ears, as it's a thing I've been struggling with.
Medium champion spirit, previously mentioned for its damage bonus, gives a form of pounce at 11th level.
I like Lore Warden for insane combat maneuver bonuses. Trip can help pin people down. While not everyone is trip susceptible, Lore Wardens are pretty good at pulling it off against those who are.
Plus a light armor depencency diesn't matter because of high DEX.
I reiterate that complete DEX focus isn't necessary.
I concur with CBD and Claxon, despite personally house-ruling the other way (because this sort of minutia is stupid to argue about in a home game when you can freely adjust your encounters around the 1-2 extra damage they deal per hit).
However in a PFS setting I would fully expect table variation leaning towards "weapon type" rather than "whether you can personally finesse it at this moment". However, there is no need to fill an entire topic about increasing damage with the same argument over and over.
I second the extra damage from being a Paladin, Antipaladin, Cavalier, or Samurai. My preferred weapon is the two bladed sword with 1d8 19-20 x2 on each swing. Its like duelwielding longswords without the new feat tax (albiet with a completely different feat tax of EWP).
Of course if the trick is getting full attacks then you might be better off choosing a class with more feats or with access to additional movement.
If the goal is dex to damage, your only bet is the Spear Dancing Elven Branch without expecting table variation. Which is unfortunate because using a double weapon requires a lot of expertise, you think there would be a feat to finesse them.
Otherwise, cook one up using the Weapon Master's Handbook. Heck I could do that if you wanted since I have it on hand.
Just looked up weapons on www.d20pfsrd.com (since Archives of Nethys updating has ground to a halt) that are both Double and Reach (so that you don't need Spear Dancing Style or Weapon Finesse); conveniently, they also have the Trip property, but inconveniently, they are all Exotic (although Unchained Monk gets you proficiency with those that have the Monk property):
Boarding Gaff (unfortunately doesn't count as being in the Corsair Fighter's Pirate Weapon Group despite being pirate-themed, and doest seem to be in a Weapon Group at all, even after checking on Archives of Nethys, but it gets a few points for having out-of-combat utility) (it would be a reasonable house rule to put it in the Double and Pirate Weapon Groups, but that isn't going to fly in PFS until an Errata comes out saying so)
Double-Chained Kama (Monk; conveniently, if you drop half of it -- for instance because of a botched Trip attempt -- you can retrieve it as a free action by pulling on the chain that connects the halves)
Kusarigama (Monk; Slashing or Bludgeoning, which is useful if you are up against a lot of minion Undead; unfortunately doesn't have the above noted fast retrieval capability of the Double-Chained Kama)
The double-chained kama can only be used as a reach weapon when NOT being used as a double weapon. Given their similar design this may also have been the intent for the kusarigama, but is not stated there.
However, there is no need to fill an entire topic about increasing damage with the same argument over and over.
We weren't just having the same argument over and over. Evidence was being examined in new ways. People's understandings evolved and grew. New insight was gained and communicated. Different aspects of a contributor's character build were examined.
ShroudedInLight wrote:
I concur with CBD and Claxon
I believe that vis a vis topics relevant to this thread, Claxon and CBDunkerson have been of opposite opinions. I do not understand how you can concur with both.
But that is an academic question and not very pertinent to this thread.
ShroudedInLight wrote:
If the goal is dex to damage, your only bet is the Spear Dancing Elven Branch without expecting table variation. Which is unfortunate because using a double weapon requires a lot of expertise, you think there would be a feat to finesse them.
If this is the argument you think shouldn't be had over and over, then maybe you shouldn't be prosecuting an opinion on it.
Spear Dancing Elven Branched Spear don't go particularly well together. I've already explained why earlier in this thread, and people have already cited the relevant rules. I will sum up the problems with this build. If you want me to re-cite the evidence, I will at your request.
1) The Elven Branched Spear already is a Finessable Weapon: it doesn't need Spear Dancing Spiral for that.
2) The Spear Dancing Style Feat turns a Spear or Pole Arm into a Double Weapon, and the Off-Hand end is treated as a Light Mace. Light Maces are Finessible Weapons, too. As Belefon pointed out, with most Double Weapons, one of the ends of the weapons is treated as a Light, Off-Hand Weapon.
3) If you have some other means of achieving Dex-to-Damage, you might be onto something, but we were talking about Dex-to-Damage using the Unchained Rogue Class Ability Finess Training. The class ability states that it can only be used with a single type of weapon. Elven Brached Spear is a type of weapon you can use this for. But when you Double it via the Spear Dancing Style, the other end is a different type of weapon: a Light Mace. Claxon's character can take Finesse Training for either end, but not for both.
I advise that Claxon either not bother with Spear Dancing Feats at all and just Finesse his EBS or invest his Ability Points in both Strength and Dex, Finessing the Mace-end of his 'Spear, and enjoying his ST Mod with the main end.
I will say, I hadn't considered the ramifications of the off-hand end being a light mace.
So yeah...dex build with elven branched spear probably isn't great unless you're GM rules that it still counts as a Elven Branched Spear for Finesse Training (I wouldn't).
Better off finding another double weapon that is naturally finessable.
Or you just go full unchained rouge, and choose light mace as your second finesse training weapon at 10. Dex to damage on the off-hand is pretty worthless anyway, as its .5 dex mod on one or two attacks, and most of your damage is from sneak attack.
Or you just go full unchained rouge, and choose light mace as your second finesse training weapon at 10. Dex to damage on the off-hand is pretty worthless anyway, as its .5 dex mod on one or two attacks, and most of your damage is from sneak attack.
True, though I had been planning to go Slayer in my previous build....straight rogue could work. But now you're just the standard TWF rogue with some additional feats thrown in for Spear Dancing Spiral...
I guess you still get the benefit of only needing to enchant 1 weapon (Spear Dancing Style isn't really clear what happens with the magical enhancement of the weapon which is turned into a double weapon when it normally isn't).
If you don't get that benefit...I honestly can't see any reason to do that build. Might as well get a couple scorpion whips and substitute the whips feats.
Removed some back-and-forth rules debate. Folks, the Advice subforum is a platform for helping out other gamers. If what you're posting isn't advice intended for the OP, it probably belongs in another thread.
The double-chained kama can only be used as a reach weapon when NOT being used as a double weapon. Given their similar design this may also have been the intent for the kusarigama, but is not stated there.
I don't have an issue with that.
I have an issues with:
No weapon finesse tag.
Worse than a short sword. I would expect the kama to be (1d6/19-20/x2) as a baseline.
Seriously, for an exotic weapon to be a downgrade over similar martial weapons is just sad.
I will say, I hadn't considered the ramifications of the off-hand end being a light mace.
So yeah...dex build with elven branched spear probably isn't great unless you're GM rules that it still counts as a Elven Branched Spear for Finesse Training (I wouldn't).
Better off finding another double weapon that is naturally finessable.
But... Light Maces are light weapons, and thus finessable.
I will say, I hadn't considered the ramifications of the off-hand end being a light mace.
So yeah...dex build with elven branched spear probably isn't great unless you're GM rules that it still counts as a Elven Branched Spear for Finesse Training (I wouldn't).
Better off finding another double weapon that is naturally finessable.
But... Light Maces are light weapons, and thus finessable.
Right, but Finesse Training gives you dex to damage with 1 weapon at a time. You had to take 11 levels in Unchained Rogue to get that with a second weapon, such as the light mace. Which makes this unappealing, because now your Finesse Training prevents you from getting dex to damage on both parts, which was the whole goal.
Right, but Finesse Training gives you dex to damage with 1 weapon at a time. You had to take 11 levels in Unchained Rogue to get that with a second weapon, such as the light mace. Which makes this unappealing, because now your Finesse Training prevents you from getting dex to damage on both parts, which was the whole goal.
You could take finesse training for light maces and purchase a +1 agile elven branched spear. Then you'd get dex to damage with both ends as soon as you can afford a +2 weapon.
Unless there's something in that mess of rules I didn't pick up on...
The only downside there is that agile will not give you 1.5 dex on attacks where you don't full attack, like finesse training will.
As a bonus: Double Slice does work with agile, allowing you full dex-to-damage if you declare the attack using the agile property as your off-hand attack.
Ranger or slayer is nice for Str-based two weapon fighting thanks to being able to ignore dex prerequisites. Another option is a Str-based investigator using artful dodge to use intelligence to qualify for TWF feats instead of dex.
And so begins the quest of Faye Ginn, former Orphanage Matron, who lost her job when a 'Chaotic Neutral' adventurer burned the place down.
Now she uses her home medicine, harsh discipline, motherly lies and intimidation to track down criminals, and dispense her own justice with 'the stick'.
Half-baked theoryfinder:
'The stick' being a quarterstaff enchanted to be +1 Inspired on both sides, this gets pretty hilarious at level 9.
At a very quick glance...
16600 spent on the staff, 8000 spent on +2 headband and +2 strength belt. Rest can be spent on whatever else.
Faye Ginn
Level 9 Human Empiricist
Str 20
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 12
Strength is 15 +2 from racial, Int is 16. Both get +1 from levelling. Mutagen makes this all very awkward as it applies an Int penalty, not Int damage. Depending on starting level/gear accumulation order these two will need some juggling in terms of which starts at 15/16, which you put the level 4 point in and which you headband.
Mutagen pumps Strength up to 24. Studied Combat Provides +4 to hit/damage, and using Inspiration on any given attack provides +d8 to attack and then double that to damage. Level seven slot has a few fun options, Double Slice and Possessed Hand come to mind immediately.
Using only Mutagen and Studied Combat, we get a full attack of...
+15/+15/+10/+10, with d8 inspiration dice and an inspiration pool of 11.
Main attacks hitting for d6+16, Off-hand hitting for d6+10, and any inspiration boosted attacks gaining the extra doubled bonus.
And you can always club people on the move or with an AoO at +17 to hit, d6+21 damage.
Not ground-breaking, but this is still using an investigator's skillset and no pre-buffing outside the 90-minute duration mutagen.
So say for some reason I wanted to make a character that used double weapons *cough*final fantasy 9*cough*chrono cross*cough*, how would I go about optimizing that which people consider awful?
My advice to the OP is and was that he should be undeterred by the fear that what he might want to do might be unpopular.
Looking at the final Fantasy images on Google Images, the double weapon that that most closely resembles is the 2 Bladed Sword. 1d8 Slashi ng, 19-20 Threat Range.
If you play a Tengu, they are automatically proficient in all Swords.
If you take a level in Ranger, you might cast Lead Blades, perhaps by Wand, raising the Base Damage to 2d6.
You could take Improved Critical, but if you wanted a Crit Build, I'd recommend a weapon with a threat range of 18-20, along with Outflank and Combat Reflexes. Still an option, but I'm not as excited about that.
ChaiGuy wrote:
I think I'd go with a half-orc, to gain the orc double axe as a racial bonus
Orcish Double Axe, also 1d8 slashing, but I don't like the Threat Range as much.
Dire Flail, 1d8 Blunt, which I like better than Slashing, also a Tripping and a Disarming weapon, an exciting option. Orcs can use Dire Flails as Martial Weapons via an Alternative Racial Trait.
Gnome Hooked Hammer, Blunt and Piercing and Tripping, 1d8/1d6 for a Medium Weapon. Also an exciting option.
Dip 3 lvs of unchained rogue for dex to damage, then whatever class you want. Be good friends with any class with bardic performance.
This legit is advice for the OP.
Imbicatus wrote:
There is no finesse double weapon. Unchained rouge doesn't work here.
This is a legit concern about the legit advice for the OP. Remember the OP is:
The Pale King wrote:
So say for some reason I wanted to make a character that used double weapons
We are talking about different ways of using Double Weapons and concerns about those ways. Normally, a Spear or Pole Arm is not a Double Weapon, but
Spear Dancing Style wrote:
spear fighter weapon groups. While using this style, you grant the chosen weapon the double special weapon feature,
CBDunkerson wrote:
With Spear Dancing Spiral you could turn any polearm/spear into both a double weapon AND a finesse weapon.
That is an answer to the concern someone raised about a way to use Double Weapons.
CBDunkerson wrote:
With spear dancing spiral you can turn any spear into a weapon you can finesse. That doesn't mean it is a finesse weapon for the the purposes of finesse training.
That seems like an honest criticism of a suggestion on how the OP might use Double Weapons. For an analysis of these concerns, a look at the rules is called for if we are to give good advice intended for the OP.
Finesse Training wrote:
starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll.
Finesse Training doesn't require that you select a "finesse weapon." It requires that you select a Weapon that you can use Weapon Finesse with.
Finesse Training wrote:
she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse
Normally, you can't use Weapon Finesse with Spears and Pole Arms, but CD Dunkerson's advice intended for the OP is that Spear Dancing Spiral allows this.
Spear Dancing Spiral wrote:
While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon
It does.
But BadBird and others, are in good conscience concerned that Spears and Polearms can't be used with Finesse Training even with Spear Dancing Spiral. Their advice intended for the OP is like what
BadBird wrote:
Just because a given character can use Weapon Finesse with a given type of weapon under very special circumstances doesn't alter the 'type of weapon' that it actually is.... The fact that you need to actually be using Spear Dancing Spiral at all is proof that the weapon isn't a 'type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse' even for a character with the feat - it simply allows them to act like it is under specific circumstances.
That since Spear Dancing Spiral doesn't change a weapon's type at all, it doesn't make any weapon into "a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse." Certain types of weapons are weapons that can be called Finesseable: Light Weapons and Rapiers are what one normally thinks of. Elven Branched Spear comes to mind. Scimitars, I guess, with the Dervish Dancer Feat, and most of these don't fit what the OP wants.
My advice intended for the OP calls for further analysis. What is a Type of Weapon vis a vis the Finesse Training Class Ability?
Finesse Training wrote:
type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers)
For the purposes of Finesse Training,
Rapier is a type of weapon.
Dagger is a type of weapon.
It looks like "type of weapon" refers to a single line entry on the Weapons Tables, not some kind of Finessable Weapons Group. So even though Kukri would certainly be a member of the Finessable Weapons Group, and a Kukri is very Dagger-like, for the purposes the Finesse Training Class Ability, Kukri is a separate weapon type from Dagger. And while you normally can't use Weapon Finesse with them, for the purposes of Finesse Training,
Greatsword is a type of weapon, and
Lucerne Hammer is a type of weapon.
BadBird wrote:
Just because a given character can use Weapon Finesse with a given type of weapon under very special circumstances doesn't alter the 'type of weapon' that it actually is.
I wouldn't call them "very special circumstances." She has to use a Feat. That might be special, but very special? I don't think so. But even so, the question is
Is Lucerne a type of weapon with respect to the Finesse Training Class Ability?
Yes.
Is the Lucerne Hammer
Finesse Training wrote:
type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse
?
If she takes Spear Dancing Spiral, the Lucerne Hammer is a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. It is a type of weapon. If you use Spear Dancing Spiral, you can use it with Weapon Finesse. Therefore, it is a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse.
Spear Dancing Spiral wrote:
While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon
To answer a potential concern, "gain the benefit" does indeed mean you are "using" Weapon Finesse. "Benefit" is a specific game term referring to that good stuff you get when you use a Feat.
Core Rulebook PRD, Feats wrote:
Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do.
There is a problem with advice intended for the OP of attempting to use Pole Arms as Finesseable Double Weapons useable with Finesse Training. I mentioned this problem earlier: Spear Dancing Style makes the off-end of the Pole Arm into a Light Mace, or uses the stats for it, which might well be the same thing. Light Mace is Finesse-able. I assert that Lucerne Hammer is Finesse-able, but Finesse Training only allows you to choose 1 weapon, and Lucerne Hammer and Light Mace are 2.
It still might be worth doing, even if it ends up being not as nice. I think my advice to the OP is that using Spear Dancing Style Feats to use a weapon such as a Lucerne Hammer as a Double Weapon offers powerful options, but I don't recommend Strength Dumping. Meanwhile, if the OP wants to exploit Sneak Attack Damage, I have a completely other recommendation which I will offer later.
I was thinking in terms of Chain Spear or Meteor Hammer as Double Weapons that would be awesome for doing Sneak Attack Damage.
Chain Spears are the only Double Weapon I found where both ends do Piercing Damage. My idea is that you develop Grappling, and when your BAB reaches +7, take Hamatula Strike. Hamatula Strike lets you make a free (cheaper than Free) Grapple Check with every Attack with a Piercing Weapon. If you are wearing Armor Spikes, you also do Armor Spike Damage. Since the Grapple Check is a separate Attack Roll, those Armor Spikes do Sneak Attack Damage, too. Basically, you are doubling your number of Attacks and Damage.
Since Meteor Hammers do 1d8/1d8 Blunt Damage, they are also good candidates for a level in Ranger and Lead Blades. Also, they are a good way to deliver Sneak Attack Damage via Sap Adept feats. You'll have to be inflicting Nonlethal Damage, so you need to take the Bludgeoner Feat. If you can take Ascetic Style for your Meteor Hammer, you can also take Knockout Artist for your 'Hammer.
Sap Master requires that your opponents be Flatfooted, not merely denied their Dex mods to AC. To me, that means taking Shatter Defenses and Cornudgeon Smash. Shatter Defenses also requires Dazzling Diaplay, which allows you to Intimidate Crowds simultaneously, which can be pretty cool.
If you play a Half-Orc, you get bonuses to Intimidate. You can take Surprise Followthrough Feats which also activates Sneak Attack. Meteor Hammer is a Reach Weapon that can used as a Double Weapon instead, making it a very versatile choice for Great Cleave or for Double Weapon Fighting. Sadly, the Chain Fighter alternative Racial Trait does not grant any proficiency advantages with Meteor Hammer, although conceptually, I feel like it should. A GM might allow it.
If you take a level in Arcanist, you can take the Dimensional Slide Exploit, which lets you teleport 10' as part of a Move and does not disorient you the way Dimension Door does: hello Flanking Sneak Attack Damage. Arcanists have Mudball on their Spell Lists: Ranged Touch Attack to Blind your opponents: Blinded opponents have no Dex Bonuses to AC, and you get your Sneak Attack Damage.
My other favorite way to lock in my Sneak Attack Damage is to Blind my opponents with Dirty Tricks. You can take Quick and Greater dirty tricks when your BAB is +6. Since Dirty Fighting or Combat Expertise are Prerequisites for Improved Trip and Improved Dirty Trick, the same Feat Tax can pay for both, and both Chain Spear and Meteor Hammer are Trip Weapons. I recommend the Called Enchantment for either: the advantage of a the Trip Weapon Quality is that in the event of a catastrophic Trip attempt, you can drop your weapon rather than go Prone yourself. But you'll miss your weapon when it's gone. It will be nice if you can then just Call it back.
It occurs to me that since Morning Stars do both Piercing and Bludgeoning Damage, a Morning Star might allow you to combine both HS and Sap Adept Features to REALLY pile on the Sneak Attack Damage, but since that is not a Double Weapon, it is beyond the scope of advice for the OP. I guess it is sort of a possibility for use the the Gnome Hooked Hammer.
Just because a given character can use Weapon Finesse with a given type of weapon under very special circumstances doesn't alter the 'type of weapon' that it actually is.
I wouldn't call them "very special circumstances." She has to use a Feat. That might be special, but very special? I don't think so. But even so, the question is
Is Lucerne a type of weapon with respect to the Finesse Training Class Ability?
Yes.
Is the Lucerne Hammer
Finesse Training wrote:
type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse
?
If she takes Spear Dancing Spiral, the Lucerne Hammer is a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. It is a type of weapon. If you use Spear Dancing Spiral, you can use it with Weapon Finesse. Therefore, it is a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse.
"Very special circumstances" isn't referring simply to 'using a feat'. It's referring to the fact that you need to actually be utilizing the combat style involved, and need the weapon to be appropriately sized - the lack of either condition being met meaning that you can't finesse the weapon.
Ignoring conditional vs. universal with regards to 'weapon type' and Weapon Finesse runs into obvious problems very quickly:
Quote:
Player: "I select warhammer for Finesse Training".
GM: "A warhammer isn't a weapon type you can use with Weapon Finesse".
Player: "I can wield an under-sized warhammer as a light weapon, and thus use Weapon Finesse with it. Therefore, a warhammer is a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse."
GM: "Uh... yeah but -"
Player: "OK then. So, I select warhammer for Finesse Training. I shall be applying Weapon Finesse to my warhammer attacks now."
GM: "You can't apply Weapon Finesse to attacks with a warhammer, dammit!"
Player: "Ahem, we already logically established that a warhammer is a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, did we not? How else would I be able to take Finesse Training with it? So, as I was saying, I'm applying Weapon Finesse to my warhammer attacks now, because it's a type of weapon I can use Weapon Finesse with."
Obviously, conditional does not equal universal. In the above example, the player is doing nothing more than equating being able to use a warhammer with Weapon Finesse under specific conditions with being able to use the weapon type: warhammer with Weapon Finesse in general, and following it to it's "logical" conclusion.
Cant you just use the elven branch spear with Spear Dancing Spiral to evntually make it a double weapon?
You can. You don't even need Spear Dancing Spiral to do that. Spear Dancing Style would suffice. What Spear Dancing Spiral would do is allow you to use Weapon Finesse with the EBS, and Elven Branched Spears are Finesse-able anyway.
As I observed earlier, the problem comes up with Finesse Training. When you use Spear Dancing Style to turn your pole/spear weapon into a Double weapon, you are creating 2 weapons, not 1. The other end becomes a Light Mace. And you can only use Finesse Training for 1 weapon.
But the answer to your question is yes, it's even easier than you suppose.
"Very special circumstances" isn't referring simply to 'using a feat'. It's referring to the fact that you need to actually be utilizing the combat style involved, and need the weapon to be appropriately sized - the lack of either condition being met meaning that you can't finesse the weapon.
Okay, for now, I accept this as "very special circumstances."
BadBird wrote:
Obviously, conditional does not equal universal. In the above example, the player is doing nothing more than equating being able to use a warhammer with Weapon Finesse under specific conditions with being able to use the weapon type: warhammer with Weapon Finesse in general, and following it to it's "logical" conclusion.
Interesting counterpoint. I never considered inappropriately sized weapons.
Personally, I don't see anything problematic with RAW, RAI or game balance if your hypothetical player chose "Undersized Warhammer" as his Finesse Training Weapon. I see the key words in Finesse Training as "can be used with Weapon Finesse." Since this ability refers to a weapon he is actively using in Combat, I think a Rogue who picks up a weapon that he can't use Weapon Finesse with in that combat also can't use Finesse Training in that combat. But I suppose other interpretations might be technically legal.
If, for instance, another Rogue in your hypothetical party chose Dagger, and over the course of his adventures managed to steal a Dagger from a Frost Giant, I don't think anyone would allow him to use Finesse Training with that, since that Dagger would not be a weapon he could use with Weapon Finesse. But I find myself wondering whether there have been any Official Rules Posts on the subject.
All-in-all, I still don't see a problem with saying that a pole arm is a Weapon you can use Weapon Finesse with as long as you are using Spear Dancing Spiral any more than I would say that Warhammer is a a Weapon you can use Weapon Finesse with as long as it is Undersized. I advise against trying to gain the benefit of Finesse Training with any weapon I also couldn't use with Weapon Finesse. But you can use Weapon Finesse with a Lucerne Hammer as long as you using the Spear Dancing Spiral Feat.
On the Light Mace discussion... the feat just says the blunt end has the statistics of a Light Mace. It doesn't even say you wield it as one. So I'm pretty certain it still counts as whatever polearm it is.
The feat even explicitly requires weapon focus before you can take it - so I don't know why you would expect the blunt end to qualify as a different weapon for feats/class abilities.
On the Light Mace discussion... the feat just says the blunt end has the statistics of a Light Mace. It doesn't even say you wield it as one. So I'm pretty certain it still counts as whatever polearm it is.
The feat even explicitly requires weapon focus before you can take it - so I don't know why you would expect the blunt end to qualify as a different weapon for feats/class abilities.
I was thinking that if it uses the statistics for a Light Mace, that pretty much makes it a Light Mace, at least with respect to Finesse Training.
Your interpretation might be the more correct, but unless more evidence comes to light or the OP can have that configuration well-vetted with his GM, my advice intended for the OP is that he not Strength dump in the hopes that he can Dex-to-Damage both ends of his Lucerne Hammer.
I was thinking that if it uses the statistics for a Light Mace, that pretty much makes it a Light Mace
Is the Sword Two-Bladed two Longswords? Is the Gnome Hooked Hammer a Warhammer and Heavy Pick? Et cetera.
The precedent with double weapons is that they have their own unique identity for feats rather than using the feats for the weapons which they are composites of. Thus, I would apply the same logic to spears and polearms used as double weapons via Spear Dancing Style. Just as a Quarterstaff is not two Light Maces, despite those being the stats it uses, a Longspear used as a quarterstaff style double weapon is not a Longspear and a Light Mace.
I was thinking that if it uses the statistics for a Light Mace, that pretty much makes it a Light Mace
Is the Sword Two-Bladed two Longswords? Is the Gnome Hooked Hammer a Warhammer and Heavy Pick? Et cetera.
The precedent with double weapons is that they have their own unique identity for feats rather than using the feats for the weapons which they are composites of. Thus, I would apply the same logic to spears and polearms used as double weapons via Spear Dancing Style. Just as a Quarterstaff is not two Light Maces, despite those being the stats it uses, a Longspear used as a quarterstaff style double weapon is not a Longspear and a Light Mace.
Yeah, I was thinking about that. You have a point, and your and Dandy's interpretation might turn out to be the more correct.
What you are describing though is the physical nature of the weapon. The whole reasoning for why you can use Finesse Training with Lucerne Hammer via Spear Dancing Spiral in the first place has nothing to do the physical nature of the weapon itself, but rather gaining a new skillset regarding the way the weapon is used.
The off-hand end of the Pole Arm is used as if it were a Light Mace.
I've always liked the Artful Dodger for a Half Orc Occultist. The high Intelligence is helpful for the Occultist Abilities, plus, he doesn't need his hands free to cast spells while wielding the double axe. And transmutation has a few good abilities for your weapon.
The question is, do you take the Battlehost as the Occultist Archetype? The battlehost gives you a lot of feats to play with, which helps to Double Axe build, but you lose some of implements and implement powers, which is why you want a high intelligence to begin with.
I totally lost track of this thread, but I was about to sit down and make this character when I remembered. There was a lot of good posts after I lost track! I am definitely looking to use the two bladed sword, which unfortunately isn't all to easy to get proficiency with. I am thinking either Human bonus feat or Half-Elf with Ancestral Arms to get proficiency. Tengu works, but I don't particularily want to play a Tengu.
I like The Dandy Lion's Inquisitor idea a lot, though unfortunately it messes with feat progression if I want to go two bladed sword. I am also considering the Slayer route or just going Fighter for the feats. Occultist does sound like a heck of a lot of fun though, they are a class I have never played or even read much about.
