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No, Windy Escape doesn't prevent grapples despite the wording of its fluff text. You're better off with Grease.
What do you base that interpretation on? As read, Windy Escape allows an attack to pass harmlessly through you. Doesn't say anything about grapples being an exception.
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what he needs is "Gaseous Form"
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The quote's a bit more specific than that:
You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
The critical point is that it specifically lists exactly what you are immune to. Grapple isn't listed, so no, Windy Escape has no effect on grapples.
DR10/magic does nothing against Grapple
First, windy escape:
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
Notes: "vaporous and insubstantial allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you".
- This is listed in addition to the DR 10/magic, it's not covered solely by DR 10/magic. If the attack is magical, for example Sylph-killing sword of doom, then the DR 10 comes into play. A non-magical attack would "pass harmlessly through you".
"You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used."
note that there's no exception for grapple, only for attacks of opportunity you cause.
In short Windy Escape allows you to become insubstantial and have a melee attack pass through you. In addition it allows DR/10 magic and in addition you are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
There's three parts here to the spell's effect, everyone seems to be overlooking the first one.
Edited to change example from "Fireball" to "Sylph-killing sword of doom" when it was pointed out that DR does not apply to fireballs.
- This is listed in addition to the DR 10/magic, it's not covered solely by DR 10/magic. If the attack is magical, for example a fireball, then the DR 10 comes into play. A non-magical attack would "pass harmlessly through you".
Fireball isn't subject to DR.
- This is listed in addition to the DR 10/magic, it's not covered solely by DR 10/magic. If the attack is magical, for example a fireball, then the DR 10 comes into play. A non-magical attack would "pass harmlessly through you".Fireball isn't subject to DR.
Changing to another example.
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As an example here's Gaseous form:
The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains DR 10/magic and becomes immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits.
I don't think anyone would claim that gaseous form only grants DR 10/magic and immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits.
Based on this description, would you argue that you can grapple someone in gaseous form?
Windy escape is like a 1 attack long version of gaseous form.
I have to agree that Windy Escape should take its cues from Gaseous Form. While the latter doesn't specifically state any protection from being grappled, it grants it none the less because the devs thought the notion that a gaseous creature couldn't be grappled was so obvious they shouldn't have state it in the rules.
After a re-read of DR I concede that this spell would not work against Evard's black tentacles.
While it would probably prohibit a regular non-magical grapple, in this case it is a magical grapple, which would overcome the DR/10 magic.
Windy escape would allow you to ignore up to 10 points of non-magical damage. However the spell (Evard's)is magical.
A normal grapple attempt however could be avoided.
Well, I tracked down Sean K. Reynold's statement on gaseous form and grappling, wherein he states that, "You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules."
While I'll refrain from any judgement on his attitude, I'll agree with this overall thread that:
Agreeing with all of those, I'll back off from my original statement that Windy Escape doesn't work against any grapples, but I'll stick with my opinion that it doesn't work against Black Tentacles in particular.
On the other hand, Windy Escape is a racial spell for sylph. Is the PC a sylph, or is someone playing fast and loose with spell requirements? A pet peeve of mine is the number of PCs I encounter who grab 'really cool' spells from the Advanced Race Guide that happen to be race-specific...
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DR10/magic does nothing against GrappleFirst, windy escape:
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
Notes: "vaporous and insubstantial allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you".
- This is listed in addition to the DR 10/magic, it's not covered solely by DR 10/magic. If the attack is magical, for example Sylph-killing sword of doom, then the DR 10 comes into play. A non-magical attack would "pass harmlessly through you"."You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used."
note that there's no exception for grapple, only for attacks of opportunity you cause.
In short Windy Escape allows you to become insubstantial and have a melee attack pass through you. In addition it allows DR/10 magic and in addition you are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
There's three parts here to the spell's effect, everyone seems to be overlooking the first one.
Edited to change example from "Fireball" to "Sylph-killing sword of doom" when it was pointed out that DR does not apply to fireballs.
DR/magic don't work the way you think it work, read it. You are harmed by not magical attacks, simply you avoid the firs 10 point of damage from non magical physical attacks.
Windy escape say: "You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, ...".
How long is briefly? Long enough to negate 10 points of non magical physical damage and to protect you from "... any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack." End of the length of your protection.
It don't last long enough to avoid being grabbed or grappled.
@NobodysHome Gaseous form has this piece of text that is absent in windy escape:
A gaseous creature .....
It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists.
That protect it from grappling, not the 10/magic part of the effect. So SKR post don't apply to windy escape.
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Sean K. Reynold's statement on gaseous form and grappling, wherein he states that, "You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules."
Huh. I was unaware of that quote. I've been giving Air Elementals no more resistance to being grappled than any other creature.
I wonder if a Fire Elemental counts as "gaseous", too?
Sean K. Reynold's statement on gaseous form and grappling, wherein he states that, "You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules."Huh. I was unaware of that quote. I've been giving Air Elementals no more resistance to being grappled than any other creature.
I wonder if a Fire Elemental counts as "gaseous", too?
What about Water Elementals? I would imagine that regardless of an elemental's composition they are still substantial, that being the magic word.
If they are insubstantial, the immunity from grappling would go both ways, they cannot be grappled, nor can they grapple. For that matter insubstantial and gaseous creatures would also be unable to attack similar to Gaseous Form. The more I think of it, the more I think this isn't the case. Elementals are substantial.That protect it from grappling, not the 10/magic part of the effect. So SKR post don't apply to windy escape.A gaseous creature .....
It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists.
The question then, is: does Windy Escape not allow travel through cracks because it is a different form than Gaseous Form or because the duration is too short?
DR/magic don't work the way you think it work, read it. You are harmed by not magical attacks, simply you avoid the firs 10 point of damage from non magical physical attacks.
Windy escape say: "You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, ...".
How long is briefly? Long...
Yeah. Thus the part where I specify in a later post "Windy escape would allow you to ignore up to 10 points of non-magical damage."
I attempted to go back and edit the original post when i realized it was unclear, but post seems uneditable now.
And again I see nothing to indicate that it's only brief enough to avoid a sword, but too brief to avoid a grapple. Those words simply are not in the rule.
Windy Escape is not Gaseous Form. It's a poorly named and written spell. But the only benefits it gives are the ones specifically listed. If it avoided the attack entirely: 1) it would make irrelevant all the abilities it grants; 2) it would be way overpowered for a first level immediate action spell.
Windy escape grants you a number of attributes, actual gaseous form is not one of them. The fact that none of the detriments of gaseous form, as they related to casting, apply to someone who casts windy escape makes it even clearer.
Your logic is based on ignoring the first sentence of the spell description.
"You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. "
I think they made that the first sentence for a reason, not as "fluff" as some have claimed.
I wonder if a Fire Elemental counts as "gaseous", too?
"fire elementals are quick, cruel creatures of living flame"
What about Water Elementals?
'Water elementals are patient, relentless creatures made of living fresh or salt water"
Technically not gaseous, but in a water elemental's case liquid. (Try grappling liquid). And in a fire elemental's case flame. (Don't try that at home).
The question then, is: does Windy Escape not allow travel through cracks because it is a different form than Gaseous Form or because the duration is too short?
- the duration is too short. "you respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial". So entire spell happens in less than the 6 second combat round, specifically during an attack phase. So like 2 seconds?
I disagree. You are ignoring the powers the spell actual gives you. If the first sentence actually represented the power of the spell, avoiding the attack completely, what is the point of providing DR/10 Magic and Crit negation? The attack would miss if the fluff text was actionable. It's not rules text, it is not part of the spell or the remainder of the spell would be incoherent.
I'm not ignoring the powers the spell actually gives you. I would counter that you are the one ignoring part of the rules.
Let's use this as an example -
Player A - I slap that naughty Sylph!
Player B - I use Windy Escape!
DM - Player A, are you going to do damage?
Player A - No, I just want it to sting!
So in this scenario does Player A's slap affect player B?
I would say no.
The slap does no damage, so by your logic of only using the actual quoted mechanics of the rule, the DR/10 would not apply. Player B gets slapped despite turning "vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you."
Obviously, if the player is vaporous and insubstantial the slap does not connect.
Under DR:
"Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. "
So DR would eliminate a monk's stunning, but not a slap? Not a grab?
Now it goes on to say "Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact."
Why? Well you are making contact with the vapor, so a touch attack would still technically "touch", it's just in this case touching vapor.
So does the slapper "touch" the slapee? Yes. he touches a vaporous slapee. Does the slapper "slap" the slappee? No. It does not sting, and it does not turn his cheek red. The DR/10 suffices to remove the attack as it scores 0 HP, much like a grapple scores 0 HP.
IMO the interpretation of this rule that you seem to favor is allowing the game mechanics to get in the way of the purpose of the rule of the spell. The game mechanics use DR/10 as a way of saying that the Sylph suffers no damage from any non-magical attacks under 10 HP, and less damage from those over 10 HP because he briefly turns insubstantial. The use of DR as the game mechanic does not prohibit the Sylph from using this power to escape grapples, slaps, feather tickles, random naughty touching, or any other attacks that don't do actual damage.
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Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
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Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
In that case you should probably also exclude them from initiating a grapple. You should also work out how exactly they make slam attacks if they are nothing but gas and consider excluding that, too.
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Sean K. Reynold's statement on gaseous form and grappling, wherein he states that, "You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules."Huh. I was unaware of that quote. I've been giving Air Elementals no more resistance to being grappled than any other creature.
I wonder if a Fire Elemental counts as "gaseous", too?
As strange as it can be, air elemental aren't gaseous, as far as rules go.
They have the air, elemental and extraplanar subtypes:
Air Subtype: This subtype is usually used for outsiders with a connection to the Elemental Plane of Air. Air creatures always have fly speeds and usually have perfect maneuverability. Air creatures treat Fly as a class skill.Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.
Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.Extraplanar Subtype: This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have it when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow.
Nothing in those subtypes make gaseous. They have a definite, solid, form.
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DR/magic don't work the way you think it work, read it. You are harmed by not magical attacks, simply you avoid the firs 10 point of damage from non magical physical attacks.
Windy escape say: "You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, ...".
How long is briefly? Long...Yeah. Thus the part where I specify in a later post "Windy escape would allow you to ignore up to 10 points of non-magical damage."
I attempted to go back and edit the original post when i realized it was unclear, but post seems uneditable now.
And again I see nothing to indicate that it's only brief enough to avoid a sword, but too brief to avoid a grapple. Those words simply are not in the rule.
How brief is the duration isn't specified. You are the one trying to add an unlisted effect saying that it last long enough, not I. The onus of the prove is on you.
But you can't prove anything as you are trying to add a unlisted effect assuming it is "logic". But this is not "logic", it is "magic" and a game.Game rules and game balance say that you can't add a unlisted effect because you think it is "logic".
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Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
If you do that you need to reinvent completely the creature.
A truly gaseous air elemental could enter a building trough a small crack even if it is a gargantuan creature.It would be completely shapeless and capable to chance if shape at will.
It would be unable to grapple.
It would be immune to weapons meant to deal damage trough any form of impact.
Etc.
Something completely different from what we have in the bestiary.
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In that case you should probably also exclude them from initiating a grapple. You should also work out how exactly they make slam attacks if they are nothing but gas and consider excluding that, too.Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
You're reaching.
SKR's comment probably shouldn't be extended to anything other than being grappled, since that would open up a whole different category of creature that doesn't currently exist.
Plus, Air Elementals need not grapple; they have a whirlwind.
But if you're arguing that an Air Elemental can be grappled, then there's nothing preventing someone under the effects of gaseous form from being grappled.
And that, at the very least, goes counter to SKR's comment.
I don't think air elementals are gaseous. I figured they were made of more 'concentrated' wind, exerting force on the material world in the same way as a kineticist's air blast does.
Which is not to say grappling is not difficult, I would imagine trying to grab and hold onto a raging tornado to be as difficult, if not more so, as holding only concentrated water or pure fire.
Still, however, the rules have a very firm stance here, and don't say being gaseous makes you any more difficult to grapple than usual.
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In that case you should probably also exclude them from initiating a grapple. You should also work out how exactly they make slam attacks if they are nothing but gas and consider excluding that, too.Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
You're reaching.
SKR's comment probably shouldn't be extended to anything other than being grappled, since that would open up a whole different category of creature that doesn't currently exist.
Plus, Air Elementals need not grapple; they have a whirlwind.
But if you're arguing that an Air Elemental can be grappled, then there's nothing preventing someone under the effects of gaseous form from being grappled.
And that, at the very least, goes counter to SKR's comment.
To repeat it again: gaseous form has a a piece of text that explicitly say that the creature in gaseous form can pass trough a tiny crack. Something that isn't said in the air elemental description.
So SKR comment has a basis when applied to gaseous form, not when applied to an air elemental, as the gaseous creature can pass trough the small fissure between your fingers, claws or teeth, while a air elemental can't.
For the game purposes a air elemental is made of "solid" air.
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Sean K. Reynold's statement on gaseous form and grappling, wherein he states that, "You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules."Huh. I was unaware of that quote. I've been giving Air Elementals no more resistance to being grappled than any other creature.
I wonder if a Fire Elemental counts as "gaseous", too?
As strange as it can be, air elemental aren't gaseous, as far as rules go.
They have the air, elemental and extraplanar subtypes:
...
Air Subtype: This subtype is usually used for outsiders with a connection to the Elemental Plane of Air. Air creatures always have fly speeds and usually have perfect maneuverability. Air creatures treat Fly as a class skill.Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.
Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.Extraplanar Subtype: This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take
Air Elemental, Small from the Bestiary:
First sentance: Air elementals are fast, flying creatures made of living air"Made of air = gaseous.
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I don't think air elementals are gaseous. I figured they were made of more 'concentrated' wind, exerting force on the material world in the same way as a kineticist's air blast does.
Which is not to say grappling is not difficult, I would imagine trying to grab and hold onto a raging tornado to be as difficult, if not more so, as holding only concentrated water or pure fire.
Still, however, the rules have a very firm stance here, and don't say being gaseous makes you any more difficult to grapple than usual.
Exactly how does one grapple a gas? Can you grapple the air around you and hold it, keep it from moving?
In that case you should probably also exclude them from initiating a grapple. You should also work out how exactly they make slam attacks if they are nothing but gas and consider excluding that, too.Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
They slam you to the ground or into a wall, etc, with the power of wind.
They slam you to the ground or into a wall, etc, with the power of wind.In that case you should probably also exclude them from initiating a grapple. You should also work out how exactly they make slam attacks if they are nothing but gas and consider excluding that, too.Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
And if you're both flying and there is no ground or wall or other solid objects?
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Thank you all for your thoughts and comments.
Nobody's home my character with the windy escape spell is an 11 level sylph wizard in PFS. I didn't just cherry pick it windy escape.
I remember early in this character's carrier he was grabbed by a reef claw. Apparently the claw was poisoned. I informed the GM that my character would like to use windy escape in response to the reef claw's attack. I passed the GM the Advanced Race guide. After reading the spell, he said, ok you turn insubstantial and the claw closes and passes harmlessly through you....and you don't need to worry about the poison because you are temporarily immune.
Thank you again for your thoughts and comments
I remember early in this character's carrier he was grabbed by a reef claw. Apparently the claw was poisoned. I informed the GM that my character would like to use windy escape in response to the reef claw's attack. I passed the GM the Advanced Race guide. After reading the spell, he said, ok you turn insubstantial and the claw closes and passes harmlessly through you....and you don't need to worry about the poison because you are temporarily immune.
Thank you again for your thoughts and comments
Okay, just a heads up. The reason why this happened was because the reefclaw has the grab ability. If an attack doesn't successful bypass DR, most of the rider effects other than damage that would go through that DR (like the flaming weapon quality) take effect, like poison (though Windy Escape already prevents poisons anyway, but if it was stoneskin rather than windy escape, it would still prevent an injury poison if weapon being used to deliver it couldn't bypass the DR). Grab could reasonably fit into this category, which needs to hit and deal damage to work. This doesn't mean Windy Escape inherently makes you immune to grapples. You could use it against a rend DURING a grapple. But nothing else.
In addition, this is a ridiculous amount of power people are giving a 1st level spell. It apparently does the job of a armour enhancement, a 2nd level spell AND a 4th level spell all as an immediate action. Which is insane. It is not gaseous form, and neither should it be treated as such. And RAW certainly doesn't support it even if the fluff text mentions insubstantiability. This is turning flavour text into rules text to gain a horrendous benefit, and absolutely should not be how this spell works and definitely isn't how it works if the spell goes as far as to explicitly state what it prevents already.
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Air Elemental, Small from the Bestiary:
First sentance: Air elementals are fast, flying creatures made of living air"
Made of air = gaseous.
I'm going back to 1st/2nd ed times here, but the descriptions of the elemental planes indicated that they were composed of solid, liquid, and gaseous forms of the element. So it is entirely possible that an air elemental is composed of solid, living air.
Also, and I hate to bring reality into a discussion, but get the right combination of temperature and pressure, and making solid or liquid air is entirely feasible.
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Air Elemental, Small from the Bestiary:
First sentance: Air elementals are fast, flying creatures made of living air"
Made of air = gaseous.I'm going back to 1st/2nd ed times here, but the descriptions of the elemental planes indicated that they were composed of solid, liquid, and gaseous forms of the element. So it is entirely possible that an air elemental is composed of solid, living air.
Also, and I hate to bring reality into a discussion, but get the right combination of temperature and pressure, and making solid or liquid air is entirely feasible.
Heavy and/or fast air can also knock the everliving s~+& out of you just fine.
And if you're both flying and there is no ground or wall or other solid objects?They slam you to the ground or into a wall, etc, with the power of wind.In that case you should probably also exclude them from initiating a grapple. You should also work out how exactly they make slam attacks if they are nothing but gas and consider excluding that, too.Water is a liquid, and Fire is a chemical reaction. Neither is technically gaseous (though the question could certainly be answered to taste), but an Air Elemental clearly is.
Up until reading SKR's just now, I allowed Air Elementals to be grappled normally.
Going forward, I think I'll exclude them from that.
Then you are slammed with a powerful wind.
living air is not air. Like a toy car is not a car. Obviously something similar but possibly very different.
But a toy car like a car is solid.
Living water would be more like water than solid.
Living air more like air, than solid.
I remember early in this character's carrier he was grabbed by a reef claw. Apparently the claw was poisoned. I informed the GM that my character would like to use windy escape in response to the reef claw's attack. I passed the GM the Advanced Race guide. After reading the spell, he said, ok you turn insubstantial and the claw closes and passes harmlessly through you....and you don't need to worry about the poison because you are temporarily immune.
Thank you again for your thoughts and comments
Okay, just a heads up. The reason why this happened was because the reefclaw has the grab ability. If an attack doesn't successful bypass DR, most of the rider effects other than damage that would go through that DR (like the flaming weapon quality) take effect, like poison (though Windy Escape already prevents poisons anyway, but if it was stoneskin rather than windy escape, it would still prevent an injury poison if weapon being used to deliver it couldn't bypass the DR). Grab could reasonably fit into this category, which needs to hit and deal damage to work. This doesn't mean Windy Escape inherently makes you immune to grapples. You could use it against a rend DURING a grapple. But nothing else.
In addition, this is a ridiculous amount of power people are giving a 1st level spell. It apparently does the job of a armour enhancement, a 2nd level spell AND a 4th level spell all as an immediate action. Which is insane. It is not gaseous form, and neither should it be treated as such. And RAW certainly doesn't support it even if the fluff text mentions insubstantiability. This is turning flavour text into rules text to gain a horrendous benefit, and absolutely should not be how this spell works and definitely isn't how it works if the spell goes as far as to explicitly state what it prevents already.
Well many of the ARG races are overpowered, this spell isn't particularly overpowered. It's one DR 10, for 1 attack, 1 spell slot. It's no more unbalancing than True Strike or Sheild. If anything Shield is more powerful as it lasts longer.
And again I don't see how you can dismiss the first sentance of a spell description as "fluff text". It says what the spell does, anything else is game mechanics.By the logic of "fluff text" -
A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area.
Well it's just fluff that it's fire and explosion! What it really does it 1d6 per caster level, so ignore all the rest...
I remember early in this character's carrier he was grabbed by a reef claw. Apparently the claw was poisoned. I informed the GM that my character would like to use windy escape in response to the reef claw's attack. I passed the GM the Advanced Race guide. After reading the spell, he said, ok you turn insubstantial and the claw closes and passes harmlessly through you....and you don't need to worry about the poison because you are temporarily immune.
Thank you again for your thoughts and comments
Okay, just a heads up. The reason why this happened was because the reefclaw has the grab ability. If an attack doesn't successful bypass DR, most of the rider effects other than damage that would go through that DR (like the flaming weapon quality) take effect, like poison (though Windy Escape already prevents poisons anyway, but if it was stoneskin rather than windy escape, it would still prevent an injury poison if weapon being used to deliver it couldn't bypass the DR). Grab could reasonably fit into this category, which needs to hit and deal damage to work. This doesn't mean Windy Escape inherently makes you immune to grapples. You could use it against a rend DURING a grapple. But nothing else.
In addition, this is a ridiculous amount of power people are giving a 1st level spell. It apparently does the job of a armour enhancement, a 2nd level spell AND a 4th level spell all as an immediate action. Which is insane. It is not gaseous form, and neither should it be treated as such. And RAW certainly doesn't support it even if the fluff text mentions insubstantiability. This is turning flavour text into rules text to gain a horrendous benefit, and absolutely should not be how this spell works and definitely isn't how it works if the spell goes as far as to explicitly state what it prevents already.
Well many of the ARG races are overpowered, this spell isn't particularly overpowered. It's one DR 10, for 1 attack, 1 spell slot. It's no more unbalancing than True Strike or Sheild. If anything Shield is more powerful as it lasts longer.
And again I don't see how you can dismiss the first sentance of a spell description as "fluff text". It says what the spell does, anything else is game mechanics.By the logic of "fluff text" -
A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area.
Well it's just fluff that it's fire and explosion! What it really does it 1d6 per caster level, so ignore all the rest...
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A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
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Well many of the ARG races are overpowered, this spell isn't particularly overpowered. It's one DR 10, for 1 attack, 1 spell slot. It's no more unbalancing than True Strike or Sheild. If anything Shield is more powerful as it lasts longer.
True Strike has its place and is well defined. As does Shield. This spell is also well defined and you are giving it way more power than it actually has by attributing mechanics were there are none. And for that matter, saying the APG classes are overpowered is not at all an appropriate argument. This spell is what we are focusing on.
And again I don't see how you can dismiss the first sentance of a spell description as "fluff text". It says what the spell does, anything else is game mechanics.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but you are in fact talking about game mechanics. And this is a game mechanics subforum for rules questions. And for that matter, the mechanics are what the spell does. Everything else is descriptive text.
By the logic of "fluff text" -
A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area.
Well it's just fluff that it's fire and explosion! What it really does it 1d6 per caster level, so ignore all the rest...
Rysky (thank you dear), very clearly pointed out for you where the rules also emulate the fluff. It is, in the barebones mechanic, indeed 1d6 per level of fire damage. It is defined as an explosion, it simulates an explosion in the numbers, it explains in clear text how to apply this explosion to the rules system. There is a very valuable reason for maintaining the distinction of what is description and what is mechanical, because the mechanical is usually the most important bit for simulating what the description is telling you is happening. Outside of those mechanics, that is either homebrew or DM fiat, which are both just fine, nothing wrong with doing this in your home game, but have no place in a rules argument, particularly when a lot of these are discussions for the sake of PFS players if anyone else, or to call attention to what needs to be FAQ'd.
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A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Fluff. It does 1d6 per caster level. All the rest is fluff.
same arguement as saying that "You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. " is fluff.