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So I'll be honest I'm not here to point fingers at the dev or design team or anything of the sort they're doing their jobs and doing what they want to do and that's fine.
I just wanted to see if anyone else shares my opinion about FAQ and Errata content in Pathfinder.
I truly hate the FAQ/Errata system, not because they sometimes change the rules in ways I don't like. Much of the material covered by FAQs and Errata is appropo (like the Bolt Ace getting proficiency with all crossbows, which was almost word for word the houserule in my campaign before the errata). I hate the FAQ/Errata system because...
A ) They have the gall to call revisions an errata. An errata is for correcting typos, including omissions, and clarifying poorly phrased rules to be consistent with one another. It is not for making blanket changes to the mechanics of previously published material. The developers just don't want to admit they need to publish a "Core Rulebook 2nd Edition" like every other table top roleplaying game eventually does. Which dumbfounds me to no end, because if they made it required for PFS people will buy the stupid thing even if they hate everything about it, and it will still make them just as much (if not more) money than the current system does.B ) I hate the system because although I don't have the most recent versions of many of the books, I can't really ignore the existence of the errata because the PRD is a living document. The PRD (and other sites like it) changes to reflect the current "errata".
I can't expect to find players if I require them to buy an entire bookshelf worth of out-date material to play at my table, nor can I expect them to do all of their leveling and building at my table. It eats up too much table time, and I only have one copy of the rules and many players needing to use them. So I encourage my players to use the PRD, which means I have to either accept the errata, or write houserules stipulating when and where I don't. It becomes a pain when standard party tactics at my table (and ones I've encouraged) become illegal because of Errata (such as using adamantine arrows with abundant ammunition).
C ) They keep hiding new (and sometimes contradictory) rules in their FAQs or posted here on the forums that I and all of my players are somehow expected to know about and follow, yet aren't actually published in the rules of the game.
D ) Many of the most contentious Errata and FAQs seem to be aimed at balancing the PFS, which I am not (and likely will never be) a member of. I just don't give a rats ass what players in PFS have abused. PFS is not even remotely the same game as casual Pathfinder, they've stripped almost everything I love about pathfinder out of it (such as Item creation), and restricted content access as if we were playing a B-List Freemium Item-Mall MMO instead of an OGL Table-Top RPG. Regardless of whether the reasons for doing so were sound; PFS has it's own specific documents, which are updated frequently. Gameplay revisions aimed at PFS should be located there, not in the Errata or FAQs. And legitimate omissions (such as the Basic Phytokinesis wild talent, which should have been in Occult Origins) shouldn't have been published in the PFS campaign clarifications.
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I don't know about you, but using a jingasa was fun for me. Splat surfing is fun. Navigating through an endless amount of useless items until I find one that is not crap is fun, because I get to experience a kind of "player level up" (as opposed to a "character level up"). Everytime a char of mine bought a jingasa I felt good, because I had found out about a cool, powerful option.
In contrast, everytime I buy a ring of protection or a cloak of resistance (items with the same dominance in their respective slots) I feel like I'm being forced to buy an uninteresting item just so my char doesn't die. Nerfing the jingasa while leaving the big six unscathed seems like a terrible move IMO
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Changing the core of the game to fix everything is too big of a task to be fixed by small cuts, which the errata are.
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@Darklord
I dont have a problem with one wand, i have a problem with four.
Or when every first level group has a wand and breaks WLB by 100%.If they need a wand at first level, i will most likely introduce one to the game (many AP's already cover this problem though).
What bothers me is that they refuse to take other interesting traits because they know they can obtain a wand so easily. It becomes a problem when we are about to start a new adventure and they all go "dont forget to get rich parents to buy wands of cure wounds".
Its a choice of "a trait or increase my WBL by 500%".
This isn't an issue with the trait, this is an issue with you misapplying the rules regarding spending Wealth By Level during character creation. The rules specifically state that you should not let players purchase an item worth more than half of their starting wealth. A wand costs at least 750 gp, so unless you house rule that they can purchase or create partially charged wands (which I do, but I accept the consequences of doing so without complaint) there is no rules legal way for a player to have a wand out the gate before 3rd level unless you let them.
Rich Parents sets your starting wealth to 900 gp. Note the term "increases to", it does not increase your starting wealth by 900 gp (although there is another trait that does that too). If you start at level 2 like my campaigns always do, and take this trait you gain no benefit, since your starting wealth is already more than 900 gp... stupid but true.
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No, errata and/or FAQ are not somehow killing fun.The magus community would like to speak to you about the Slashing Grace / Fencing Grace erratas.
No doubt. And I'll nod sagely and let them speak, and continue to remark that they can ignore it at their own tables and deal with the issue as an unwelcome house rule at other tables/PFS. There are things that all of us find unfair or distasteful and you compromise so that you can play. Or you take time off and catch up on the movies and tv shows or reading that you've missed.
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Nerfing the jingasa while leaving the big six unscathed seems like a terrible move IMO
The big six got adressed in Unchained, and groups who tried seemed to be rather happy with it.
Maybe an Unchained II book (with more OPTIONAL rules) is a better way than steady errata, even if it delays corrections by a year or more.
No, errata and/or FAQ are not somehow killing fun.The magus community would like to speak to you about the Slashing Grace / Fencing Grace erratas.
The erratas to both have made a couple of magi concepts less appealing. A rapier using magus and probably the most interesting one, a magus wielding an Aldori dueling sword. Not exactly overpowering in my mind.
Nerfing the jingasa while leaving the big six unscathed seems like a terrible move IMOThe big six got adressed in Unchained, and groups who tried seemed to be rather happy with it.
Maybe an Unchained II book (with more OPTIONAL rules) is a better way than steady errata, even if it delays corrections by a year or more.
Yeah, we actually use the Automatic Bonus Progression when we are not playing a published AP. It's pretty good, but it has some problems, like the slow progression of weapon bonus and the fact that it kinda screws classes with incorporated enhancement boni, like the hunter, occultist, mammoth shaman, etc. I still miss the jingasa, though.
Are people even buying head slot items, nowadays?
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Never bothered with errata and FAQs. We just trundle along.
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So Buri, Which head item did you buy instead of the jingasa?
He just said that it was good enough that people would buy it instead of any other head item. You said you didn't buy it. That doesn't counter his statement that it was the only head item people purchased.
@Darklord
I know it increase "to", but nothing stops them from buying 5 wands with 10 charges each either (except for me).
The rules as written for wealth by level actually does not apply to level 1, by the way. Only this does:
Usually you cannot use this starting money to buy magic items without the consent of your GM.
Nothing stops them from saving that money for after the game starts either, and then attempting to buy magic items using the rules of availability.
The same golden rule that allows me to forbid a trait, allows you to tell your players to start at level 2 with a purse with 1,000 gold coins.
So Buri, Which head item did you buy instead of the jingasa?
He just said that it was good enough that people would buy it instead of any other head item. You said you didn't buy it. That doesn't counter his statement that it was the only head item people purchased.
Mask of a thousand tomes and circlet of persuasion
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Mask of a thousand tomes and circlet of persuasionSo Buri, Which head item did you buy instead of the jingasa?
He just said that it was good enough that people would buy it instead of any other head item. You said you didn't buy it. That doesn't counter his statement that it was the only head item people purchased.
Unless you're a blind oracle, the mask (since it blinds you) isn't an in-combat item and therefore doesn't preclude also having a Jingasa using that slot most of the time. (I did see the circlet worn once instead of getting a Jingasa.)
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this is not a competitive game. nerfing things is unecessary. I am 100% on the OP's side and think paizo should knock it off with the obvious power nerfs and let home DMs handle the issues. If they dont like something in PFS, ban it and stop messing with everyone else.
Unless you're a blind oracle, the mask (since it blinds you) isn't an in-combat item and therefore doesn't preclude also having a Jingasa using that slot most of the time. (I did see the circlet worn once instead of getting a Jingasa.)Mask of a thousand tomes and circlet of persuasionSo Buri, Which head item did you buy instead of the jingasa?
He just said that it was good enough that people would buy it instead of any other head item. You said you didn't buy it. That doesn't counter his statement that it was the only head item people purchased.
OK? This "doesn't preclude whatever" matters how? I've never purchased it which is the exact opposite of what you said. Now you're trying to twist what I did get with combat utility to somehow still qualify it or something??? I have no idea what your post is supposed to mean.
What's at debate here is a matter of taste. I've never gotten a jingasa because this look has never been something I've seen to be part of my characters. I don't really care about stats, in-combat usage or out of combat usage. I equip my characters with gear that is a mix of things that actually fit with them and still doing what I set out to do with the character.
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this is not a competetive game. nerfing things is unecessary. I am 100% on the OP's side and think paizo should knock it off with the obvious power nerfs and let home DMs handle the issues. If they dont like something in PFS, ban it and stop messing with everyone else.
By that logic - balance doesn't matter at all. RPGs should stop worrying about it entirely and they should go purely by 'rule of cool'...
Lots of indie RPGs do that. There's a reason that they don't have significant popularity.
Does anyone else actually dread it when paizo rolls out new FAQs/Errata and just wish they could get the unedited content more easily so they could not use them(particularly on online indexes like d20pfsrd)?
Yes.
Didn't they all just go back to Dervish Dance?No, errata and/or FAQ are not somehow killing fun.The magus community would like to speak to you about the Slashing Grace / Fencing Grace erratas.
Not willingly.
Quite a few were having fun accessing more than just one weapon. The errata killed that.
I guess it was just unthinkable to allow a magus to spell combat with an aldori dueling sword, a rapier, or a katana.
I was really enjoying that katana - and not because of the extra 1 point of damage.
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this is not a competitive game. nerfing things is unecessary. I am 100% on the OP's side and think paizo should knock it off with the obvious power nerfs and let home DMs handle the issues. If they dont like something in PFS, ban it and stop messing with everyone else.
While I agree that Paizo needs to find a better way to handle OP items (maybe by increasing the price) this is a cooperative game, balance is more important here than it is in a competitive game to make sure everyone can contribute.
I see errata and FAQ closing more proverbial doors than they open, so to speak. Given that each one serves to drive "official" Pathfinder farther away from how'd I'd like it to be means that I generally don't like them.
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@Darklord
I know it increase "to", but nothing stops them from buying 5 wands with 10 charges each either (except for me).
The rules as written for wealth by level actually does not apply to level 1, by the way. Only this does:
Usually you cannot use this starting money to buy magic items without the consent of your GM.Nothing stops them from saving that money for after the game starts either, and then attempting to buy magic items using the rules of availability.
The same golden rule that allows me to forbid a trait, allows you to tell your players to start at level 2 with a purse with 1,000 gold coins.
If Wands of Cure Light Wounds are ruining your campaigns, I'm sorry but you probably need to get a bit more creative with how you challenge your players. Sounds like it's time to break out the poison, disease, charms, illusions and environmental hazards
this is not a competitive game. nerfing things is unecessary. I am 100% on the OP's side and think paizo should knock it off with the obvious power nerfs and let home DMs handle the issues. If they dont like something in PFS, ban it and stop messing with everyone else.While I agree that Paizo needs to find a better way to handle OP items (maybe by increasing the price) this is a cooperative game, balance is more important here than it is in a competitive game to make sure everyone can contribute.
Balance is also relative. If one character is destroying combats but the rest of the party is doing basically everything else and they're happy with that, is it a problem? I'm not sure it is.
@Darklord
I dont have a problem with one wand, i have a problem with four.
Or when every first level group has a wand and breaks WLB by 100%. (...) It becomes a problem when we are about to start a new adventure and they all go "dont forget to get rich parents to buy wands of cure wounds".
First, Derklord, with an E. Second, why do you have a problem with that? What harm do those wands do? In what way is your game worse? Do you want your PCs to start resting after two encounters because starting encounters with half HP at first level is too dangerous? Are you aiming for gritty survival feeling with a higher death count than Game of Thrones?
What bothers me is that they refuse to take other interesting traits because they know they can obtain a wand so easily.
It's just one trait. That they probably would spend on one of the few standard options, anyway. Again, I don't see the harmful impact.
Also, the second post you are tributing to me is by Cantriped.
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As a GM, I'm loving the errata and FAQs. My players seem to be very good at finding what's broken and Paizo keeps fixing it. Kudos!
Please keep it coming!
No. And nope. More FAQ more errata!
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If a FAQ or errata are enough to kill your fun, your fun was a fragile little thing.
Thank you for posting that so I don't have to.
Frankly, if the handful of feats, abilities, and items that get nerfed are the difference between fun and not-fun, I suspect the players involved are overly reliant on the closest-to-broken they can get.
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I don't PFS, so FAQ/errata really doesn't matter to me. I do, however, think its good that devs go back and look at things that were previously published, instead of everything that goes out the door being fire-and-forget. I also think that the nature of PFS is the driving force behind nearly all the churn and certainly all the rawr it generates.
-Skeld
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If a FAQ or errata are enough to kill your fun, your fun was a fragile little thing.Thank you for posting that so I don't have to.
Frankly, if the handful of feats, abilities, and items that get nerfed are the difference between fun and not-fun, I suspect the players involved are overly reliant on the closest-to-broken they can get.
Golly gee wizz thanks for the comment Batman! Unfortunately not all of us can be super special snowflakes like you who have their favorite batarangs blink out of existence from their toolbelt with a smile on their faces.
If you don't understand how losing the parts of your character that actually made it function thus negating everything about that character including the things which you worked into your backstory I suspect you're not human.
I'm sure that everyone in the conversation (and probably outside of it as well) understand the frustration. That said, and only speaking for myself, my fun isn't limited to one idea or one favorite batarang.
If that gets taken away, I have others in my belt (to continue the metaphor) that bring me joy as well. It might be because it isn't my first or twentieth rodeo and I've seen rules for this and other systems flex and change as the years go by. I've played the same character across a variety of D&D systems and home brew systems. Sometimes things don't line up the same and you don't get the same results.
Anguish's words might not be the most politic, but they are not wrong. We have run across this on a number of threads and the lesson behind it always stays the same: don't base your "fun" (for a given value of fun) on one singular feat, race, skill, item, idea and so on.
If you do and house rules, FAQ, errata, mean GMs, jealous players or whatever crops up and removes that choice then you feel like your fun is somehow ruined.
Fun is in the game, not the singular idea. Have more than one concept or idea or way of doing things so that if you lose something -- or never get the chance to have it in the first place -- you have other ways to enjoy yourself.
As far as Dex Magi go, since they were mentioned upthread, is losing the +4-5 damage from Dex bonus that crippling? My level 1 PFS Magus has an average damage per round of 4.83 without spell combat, sufficient to do about a quarter of a CR 1 creatures suggested HP. Tossing shocking grasp in and I do 6.16 damage per round on average, assuming a target that has the same touch AC as normal AC and non-metal armor. That goes up if they have a lower touch AC or metal armor. Sure, Dervish Dance could add some points to that, but for a 3/4 BAB class, I'm happy to knock 25% expected HP off a CR-equivalent foe on average. Toss in one buddy and the fight will be over in two rounds as often as not.
I agree, finding a cool feat and then getting the rug pulled out from under you sucks, but losing Dex to damage isn't crippling.
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I don't PFS, so FAQ/errata really doesn't matter to me. I do, however, think its good that devs go back and look at things that were previously published, instead of everything that goes out the door being fire-and-forget. I also think that the nature of PFS is the driving force behind nearly all the churn and certainly all the rawr it generates.
-Skeld
The problem is that their FAQ/Errata is pretty much "fire and forget" nerf it to uselessness and they never have to look at the item ever again.
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@Darklord
I dont have a problem with one wand, i have a problem with four.
Or when every first level group has a wand and breaks WLB by 100%.If they need a wand at first level, i will most likely introduce one to the game (many AP's already cover this problem though).
What bothers me is that they refuse to take other interesting traits because they know they can obtain a wand so easily. It becomes a problem when we are about to start a new adventure and they all go "dont forget to get rich parents to buy wands of cure wounds".
Its a choice of "a trait or increase my WBL by 500%".
It's level 1. It's not going to break the game. I think it's more practical to look at the long term affect of things such as traits that make a skill into a class skill and give a +1 bonus, which is really a +4 bonus once you add in the +3 for it being a class skill. That stays useful for the character's entire career.
PS: I have no problem with such traits, personally.
this is not a competitive game. nerfing things is unecessary. I am 100% on the OP's side and think paizo should knock it off with the obvious power nerfs and let home DMs handle the issues. If they dont like something in PFS, ban it and stop messing with everyone else.
Many home GM's have a poor idea of how to balance things. That is why they pay Paizo to do it for them. Many home GM's also have a group agreement to go by what is in the book partly because of my first sentence. Not everything is for the sake of PFS either, even though I think some of them are.
Going from 11 damage to 7 isn't going from perfect to a D, 7 damage is still half a CR 1 creature's HP or so, crit and that's a good chance of killing them. And my Magus is a Kensai.
I still agree it is annoying to lose a feat that you thought would work, especially in PFS where you're arguably paying real money for the book it's from. The heavy-handed errata especially get weird. I had to learn what Crane Style did three times. I really hope they leave it alone now. I looked into making a PFS Summoner, but I couldn't get into the Unchained Eidolon evolutions. Still trying to figure out a psychopomp Eidolon for that. The summoner got slapped hard there. If they ever look at exotic weapons like they do feats, my Kensai might be boned. All I'd need now is estocs not working with Spell Combat.
Some errata is neccesary, but I think the basic rules need errata/revision work first. How exactly does stealth work? What exactly forbids taking 10 besides combat? Why is Combat Expertise even a feat? Why bother with a couple feats that at least do exactly what they say when entire skills are up to table variation in PFS?
I usually have no clue about errata. Generally I don't spend by time reading through multiple-page documents that I rarely notice in the first place anyways, so I usually only hear about errata whenever people start talking about how something has been ruined forever.
Like the Dex Magus. Apparently something happened to them? I didn't know Dex-based Magi were a thing, but there we go. Today I learned that some sort of change probably took away an option that was useful for them.
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Skip the rapier if you're a Kensai and use your free Exotic Weapon Proficiency to get an estoc. 2d4 damage, finessable and one-handed if proficient, same crit range. Average damage goes to 5.
I won't disagree with balance changes being hamfisted. Making balance changes because something is super-common doesn't fix the problem, the people that want max optimization will just move to the next thing, and that's a valid playstyle if it's how they enjoy the game. As long as we don't reach Pun-Pun or the locate city bomb, who cares?
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If a FAQ or errata are enough to kill your fun, your fun was a fragile little thing.
Because suddenly becoming unable to play the character you enjoyed for more than a year is tons of fun.
As far as Dex Magi go, since they were mentioned upthread, is losing the +4-5 damage from Dex bonus that crippling
Switching from katana to rapier reduced my damage by ~1 point.
Switching from rapier to scimitar had no effect on damage output, only the flavor changed.
Remaining with Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace would have cost me ~30 dpr at my current level.
It is fair to assume that if spell combat is involved, the magus is making at least two attacks, without their stat applied. Tack on Haste, an iterative, and a 30% crit rate. Losing 8-10 damage per non-crit hit (16 - 20 on a crit) adds up quickly.
Please remember that it wasn't until post-errata that anyone could use Slashing Grace while also gaining Dex to-hit (with very narrow exceptions), unless you had a level in Swashbuckler. The errata opened up the feat a lot more.
My Lore Warden dual wielding sawtooth sabers feels so much better that he no longer needs his one level swashbuckler dip.
All it cost him was his off-hand attack and exotic weapon proficiency. At least my magus is still playable. I have not played my lore warden since the errata. His entire concept was destroyed.
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Like the Dex Magus. Apparently something happened to them? I didn't know Dex-based Magi were a thing, but there we go. Today I learned that some sort of change probably took away an option that was useful for them.
What happened to the magus was not a nerf, scimitar was always the optimal weapon for dexterity builds.
What happened to the dex magus is they, very briefly, had the option to use a much wider selection of weapons, most of which were less optimal. That choice was taken away from them.
Now, outside of niche builds, i.e. whip magus, scimitar is the only weapon available to the dex build magus that does not get you laughed at.