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I am just wondering if any of the good folks at Paizo are reading this tread...
Comments like, "Yeah, I let everyone slide on any rules for PFS that I don't like," must make them want to stop supporting PFS or making any resource available to the community for free.
I guess I might have less players, but I am going to start being more diligent in this aspect of my duties as a VL and GM. Not because I like doing it, in fact I don't, but if longtime players and GMs aren't doing it why should Paizo keep supporting us?
For the average scenario that I run (if I have never prepared it before), it takes me 3-4 hours to read through it a couple of times, refer to various Bestiaries, make notes and put together any minis I might need. If a player can't put in some time of their own to get their character in order so I can easily inspect it and ensure they have the necessary reference documents... well, maybe they should go play at someone else's table.
From pretty relaxed to militant in the course of one forum... way to go!
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I have no idea why you have so many problems in your PBP games. As I said, I've done about 9 or 10 before, and I'm in 3 new ones as part of the current PBP game day, and I haven't had any problems. I had one game that got called off before it happened, due to the GM's personal life getting in the way, and one that was slower than I'd like, but other than that, they've all gone just fine.
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It's a problem in general with play-by-post format. It seems less of an issue when ran here, but I usually run such games on sites like RPOL or Play By Web. Don't use PBW as often anymore since it's lost most of it's user base. And if you visit the pbw section of these forums, people mention the problem with players or gms dropping out here too. Often with no word as to it happening.
RPOL has some nice features such as a built in dice roller that's pretty dang fair... as long as your not doing 6 or more rolls at once, and a place to upload maps. As well as the ability to have multiple threads that are privacy screened for different groups. Especially useful when the party splits up. Oh, and a Language group system that automatically scrambles text into jibberish for everyone not in that language group.
I still use PBW though in part due to nostalgia. It was the first dedicated play-by-post site I ever found, and I'd been gaming there since the mid 90's.
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For the We Be Goblins game that fell through 2/3 of the way through the module, it was kind of unavoidable. I know one of the players in real life. His mother had just died and he literally had no place to live after that due to no longer having the income needed to keep paying rent for the trailer they lived in. Let alone lot rent. He had to move to a different state, and didn't get internet access or much free time for 3 months.
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Regarding the OP, GM just needs to declare they are running the Core Campaign. Then they can ban everything not in the CRB (plus Guide and character traits pdf). Otherwise, they have to let it all in.
Beyond that, as mentioned, players need to provide the materials their related to their character. Yeah, as BNW notes, this is entirely unreasonably in it's entirety, as not everyone enjoys 40lbs of books on public transit (I love it, but I'm always trying to multi-class between nerd and jock..).
Players should still have a copy of the CRB, and they should bring anything that they'll either need to reference often, or is likely to get table varience. It's nice if they have all the materials, but somewhat unreasonable. Players should make a point of referencing anything on their character sheet, so they at least know where the ability is "supposed" to be found - this is very important.
Personally, I make a point of only building characters with materials I own, and I often limit my casters by having spells from only handful of books, so the total books I bring is limited.
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If a player can't put in some time of their own to get their character in order so I can easily inspect it and ensure they have the necessary reference documents... well, maybe they should go play at someone else's table.
There is a subset of players for whom that kind of organisation is just alien to their being. They literally can't do it. A subset of that subset are actually cheating, and a further subsetting gets us to the ones that are cheating on purpose. It would be a shame for the default response to disorganised players to become "go and play a game from a different publisher", just because we want to 'catch' the cheaters.
The only productive thing we can do here is noodle ideas on how to make it easier for people to track this stuff with the minimum effort and thought on their part.
Someone commented on writing down the source of stuff when you take it. How about an AR form, similar to the ITS, that has Ability Name, Book, Page, as columns and you write a new line on it whenever you add something to your character?
[ Edit ]
As an option, a GM could initial and PFS# a line if they have checked the player can provide a copy on request.
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Aside from the fact that in PFS you are suppose to only build characters with materials you own. That's one of the PFS campaign rules.
Yes, lugging around 40 pounds worth of books can be a pain. I've done it for years. You know how many books the GM is likely to need in a Rifts campaign? I'll give you a hint, I've worn out many backpacks over the years.
But these days it isn't quite so severe. PDFs are typically a lot cheaper then buying a physical book. And carrying a tablet or laptop with a dozen or two books on it is a lot lighter then carrying the same number of physical books. Still, there's something satisfying about having the actual book in your hands. I can't deny that.
Regardless on if the GM at your table insists on verifying resources or not, it's still required that you own a PFS legal copy of any book you are using for your character. You are still required by PFS rules to bring along a PFS legal copy of the rules you're using, and not just a Word doc with copy/pasted sections of the book. GM may not ask you for these. But why not just have the materials on hand to begin with? Save yourself the worry.
Besides, unless you've memorized every skill, feat, class ability, spell, trait, and rule system from all the books... you're probably going to find yourself looking something up at one point or another rather often. Especially if you're not always playing the same character. And if the GM needs to see the rules you're using from one of the AR books, if you can't provide it... Well, better safe then sorry. Right?
After all, not every venue is gonna have wifi internet access. And not every GM is going to be willing to sift through PFSD on their smart phone (assuming they have a smart phone) just because someone couldn't be bothered to bring their source material.
I know when I'm GMing having to go diving through the PSRD because someone couldn't supply a reference book and I don't own a copy of it... Kinda detracts from the game. Not to mention wastes everyone's time.
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As an option, a GM could initial and PFS# a line if they have checked ownership.
As long as this wasn't used to fulfill the requirement of having the source available for a GM's reference. Remember, we're not enforcing this rule to prove ownership; we're enforcing this rule so that a GM has the source available to reference should he be unfamiliar with any rule used from that source.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I am just wondering if any of the good folks at Paizo are reading this tread...
Comments like, "Yeah, I let everyone slide on any rules for PFS that I don't like," must make them want to stop supporting PFS or making any resource available to the community for free.
I think here it's more a case of "these rules made sense nine years ago when there were like 20 possible additional resources in total".
I totally support owning everything you use, but the method of enforcing that doesn't scale to the current situation. If everyone spends ten minutes showing ownership of everything used on his character, that's an hour off your game slot gone. That's insane.
So I consider this more of a signal that it's time to rethink how to make these rules work in practice. There needs to be a practical, fast way to prove that you're compliant. It shouldn't require you to approach making a character as if it were a thesis which your academic rivals will attack on its annotation scheme, and it shouldn't require third-party software that costs lots of money (like Herolab) just to track source material references. And if you want everyone to neatly track it, you need to make the method widely available. Not require everyone to reinvent the wheel.
Otherwise the cost of enforcement is just too high.
Here's a practical suggestion that people can still do themselves:
- Make an "Additional Resource Tracking Sheet" (ARTS), sort of like the ITS. It's basically a spreadsheet with the following columns: Item Name, Source, Page, Description.
- You can sort it by Source and use some Excel magic to get a list of every different Source you use.
- You can compare that Source list to the stack of books in your bag and the PDFs on your My Downloads. If you can prove ownership of every source in the list, you're compliant.
Programs like Herolab could (probably already can) also spew out this list for you if you used it to track your character.
EDIT: This doesn't remove the need to have the resources available for the GM to peruse. It's merely a way to streamline proving ownership.
I find having everything as a PDF on a laptop/tablet by far the most practical. It's robust against new editions (updating PDFs is easier than updating dead tree books), has Ctrl-F. But such an ARTS sheet makes it a lot faster to find out which PDF to open.
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As an option, a GM could initial and PFS# a line if they have checked ownership.As long as this wasn't used to fulfill the requirement of having the source available for a GM's reference. Remember, we're not enforcing this rule to prove ownership; we're enforcing this rule so that a GM has the source available to reference should he be unfamiliar with any rule used from that source.
Very good point. Edited upstream.
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As an option, a GM could initial and PFS# a line if they have checked ownership.As long as this wasn't used to fulfill the requirement of having the source available for a GM's reference. Remember, we're not enforcing this rule to prove ownership; we're enforcing this rule so that a GM has the source available to reference should he be unfamiliar with any rule used from that source.
Well, not just to prove ownership. If I also own the book or I have internet access, I probably wont give a flying flip of a rat's rear end if you carry the book with you to every session I'm GMing once you've demonstrated to me you own the book. I can look the info up with a quick web search or a quick search through my own copy of the book.
But if I don't have a copy of the book and there's no internet connection, you'd dang well better have your reference materials on hand if I need to check something.
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I am just wondering if any of the good folks at Paizo are reading this tread...
Comments like, "Yeah, I let everyone slide on any rules for PFS that I don't like," must make them want to stop supporting PFS or making any resource available to the community for free.
Will you marry me?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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As an option, a GM could initial and PFS# a line if they have checked ownership.As long as this wasn't used to fulfill the requirement of having the source available for a GM's reference. Remember, we're not enforcing this rule to prove ownership; we're enforcing this rule so that a GM has the source available to reference should he be unfamiliar with any rule used from that source.
Well, for both reasons really, but I hear you.
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Maybe I'm not a "good" GM or a "by-the-book" GM, but I'm not concerned with whether my players own their additional resources or not. I GM under the assumption that my players are not "cheating". Owning one's additional resources is one of this campaign's rules, so I'll assume everyone does. The only time I'm going to check is if someone makes use of something with which I am unfamiliar. At that time, I'd expect them to produce their copy of the source so I can read the rule's original wording in order to understand it and confirm it works the way the player has said it works.
And if I want to be a stickler for the rules, I'd expect them to produce the most recent copy of the Additional Resources document, as well.
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There are several reasons while even a partial audit may be a problem. You play at a large lodge where you may not play with the same people much. You use keep your sources on slow tech. Very disorganized players. You play at a bad store that is willing to kick you out after four hours. It might be more productive to address each of these problems individually. As well as any others that you can think of. These also seem to be problems that are best dealt with socially, then with more rules.
As for the OP, the only legal way of having more control with out sticking to CORE is to run sanctioned material in campaign mode.
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This thread has evolved all over the place. Cheaters, Additional Resources, PbP, Paperwork, GMing. It's like a smorgasbord of complaints.
I think the OP was answered a while back with some good suggestions. Let's take a break from posting here for a while and let everyone simmer down.
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I think the last thing we need is more paperwork
I hear you loud and clear BNW, and I'm in agreement with 90% of what you've said in this thread. What I want for PFS is the minimum-possible of paperwork, and for all of that to be useful paperwork.
I honestly believe that for any problem like this, there is a way to do the documentation that makes it easy, quick, and useful. That method is usually a pain to find though.
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Would bringing a printout of your My Downloads page be an acceptable compromise? You'd still need to bring your books, but you'd have a 2 or 3 page (hopfully not longer) long doc that could be looked over to verify what books you own. Just collapse the sections for stuff like scenarios and modules, and it should be ready to go.
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Would bringing a printout of your My Downloads page be an acceptable compromise?
This is what some local GMs accept in my area. Or even just showing it on your phone. But you can't expect all GMs to abide by that.
For example, I know Admonishing Ray and Snowball were only printed once, in a couple of obscure sources. If you can show that you own them, that works for me.
But that wouldn't work if, say, we were having a dispute over the text of one of those spells. In that case, we'd need something to reference.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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Would bringing a printout of your My Downloads page be an acceptable compromise?This is what some local GMs accept in my area. Or even just showing it on your phone. But you can't expect all GMs to abide by that.
For example, I know Admonishing Ray and Snowball were only printed once, in a couple of obscure sources. If you can show that you own them, that works for me.
But that wouldn't work if, say, we were having a dispute over the text of one of those spells. In that case, we'd need something to reference.
Actually, I just looked up snowball two minutes ago. It was printed twice, once in People of the North and once in The Snows of Summer.
The More You Know *
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Extreme lawfulness! Everyone with a chaotic alignment drink!
*drinks*
Weirdly enough, I generally play chaotic good characters. It's the alignment I'm most comfortable with portraying, and the one that I personally would fit best. It's just that some things I become all orderly about. Sometimes to excess.
For example I'm an admitted slob. Dirty cloths get dropped where ever I changed cloths at. Dishes pile up for a week or two at a time. Vacuuming is rarely done, and tables are only really cleaned off if company is coming over for gaming. And yet my books and movies are organized first by genre, then by sub genre, then alphabetically by author. I do the same with my movies (for instance Superhero Movies, then Comic based specifically vs general superhero, then comic company, then alphabetically by individual character). Video games are arranged alphabetically by genre, then alphabetically by series name, then chronological order.
Another example is how as a GM I'm generally rather laid back Adventures I design have a definite open ended aspect to them. I'll have a set beginning point, maybe a couple specific events that will happen, and a destination/dungeon. But the way to get from point A to point D changes depending on what the players are actually doing. And I may play fast and loose with rules if it'd benefit the game in general. But when it comes to Organized Campaign rules, oh those I'm a real stickler for.
*shrugs*
Strange contradiction, I know.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Would bringing a printout of your My Downloads page be an acceptable compromise? You'd still need to bring your books, but you'd have a 2 or 3 page (hopfully not longer) long doc that could be looked over to verify what books you own. Just collapse the sections for stuff like scenarios and modules, and it should be ready to go.
It's 23 pages for me. And it gets bigger every month. I've tried collapsing stuff, it doesn't stay collapsed. Ctrl-F is my friend.
I'm not gonna print it, showing it on my phone/laptop is much more practical.
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Would bringing a printout of your My Downloads page be an acceptable compromise?This is what some local GMs accept in my area. Or even just showing it on your phone. But you can't expect all GMs to abide by that.
For example, I know Admonishing Ray and Snowball were only printed once, in a couple of obscure sources. If you can show that you own them, that works for me.
But that wouldn't work if, say, we were having a dispute over the text of one of those spells. In that case, we'd need something to reference.
Well, yeah. Proof of ownership IS only half the reason you need to bring the books after all.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think the last thing we need is more paperworkI hear you loud and clear BNW, and I'm in agreement with 90% of what you've said in this thread. What I want for PFS is the minimum-possible of paperwork, and for all of that to be useful paperwork.
I honestly believe that for any problem like this, there is a way to do the documentation that makes it easy, quick, and useful. That method is usually a pain to find though.
Agreed. Better paperwork should make things more efficient. Developing the method may be difficult but the end result should be fast to use and make life easier (while also meeting goals).
I think your My Downloads page is an excellent way of proving PDF ownership. Showing it on your phone isn't that hard, doesn't kill a dozen trees, and doesn't cause encumbrance.
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Would bringing a printout of your My Downloads page be an acceptable compromise? You'd still need to bring your books, but you'd have a 2 or 3 page (hopfully not longer) long doc that could be looked over to verify what books you own. Just collapse the sections for stuff like scenarios and modules, and it should be ready to go.It's 23 pages for me. And it gets bigger every month.
That's why I mentioned collapsing sections for stuff like modules and scenarios.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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That's why I mentioned collapsing sections for stuff like modules and scenarios.Would bringing a printout of your My Downloads page be an acceptable compromise? You'd still need to bring your books, but you'd have a 2 or 3 page (hopfully not longer) long doc that could be looked over to verify what books you own. Just collapse the sections for stuff like scenarios and modules, and it should be ready to go.It's 23 pages for me. And it gets bigger every month.
I've tried that before - it takes half a minute to fold a category, I have about a hundred categories, and they don't always stay folded. I suspect they all unfold if any item is added anywhere in the list or something like that. The website doesn't work well for this.
Not practical. Printing stuff is not a good solution.
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When I pull out Kahel at a table, I'm pulling out 12 or 13 chronicles, inventory tracking sheet, an 8 page character sheet (if I have a printout of it), a printout of all thirty pages (watermarked of course)And if you need more than 1 character are you renting a u haul or a pack mule?This is a bit of an exaggeration.
I currently have about 24 different characters, ranging from level 2 GM blobs up to level 18 or so. I have about 18 active characters between level 2 and 11 with at least 4 in the 10-11 bracket.
I played at Paizocon UK this year in 5 different slots, one of which was Serpent's Ire. I brought two characters for each other slot. I played Abducted in Aether, Orders from the Gate, Sun Orchid Scheme and Labyrinth of Hungry Ghosts. 8 characters ranging from level 4 to level 11.
It took all of two relatively small folders, one manilla folder with chronicles sorted by character, one flip file with character sheets and references for stuff like spells.
Everything fitted quite easily into a small backpack along with dice, mini's, bottles of water and snacks and a small desk fan.
I'm betting each of those 8 characters didn't have 30 pages of watermarked PDFs (such as the poster BNW was quoting).
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I'm betting each of those 8 characters didn't have 30 pages of watermarked PDFs (such as the poster BNW was quoting).Most would have had more, I make extensive use of a wide range of sources and mostly play casters. They included a summoner, animal comapnion using inquisitor, two sorcerers, oracle, arcanist, cleric and witch.
Of course I only ever buy anything I want in pdf format.
So, just to counter your reply to BNW (Quote: "This is a bit of an exaggeration"), you DIDN'T have 240 pages of watermarked PDFs in that tiny backpack of yours?
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So, just to counter your reply to BNW (Quote: "This is a bit of an exaggeration"), you DIDN'T have 240 pages of watermarked PDFs in that tiny backpack of yours?It's a PDF, you dont need to print them out.
Not everyone has that luxury.
BNW was responding to someone who prints out a truckload of paper to bring to a Convention.
You responded with "This is a bit of an exaggeration".
Your reply was thusly inappropriate (and lends credence to his point).
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I know there are shenanigans going on, but as a GM in PFS you understand the 'if you don't own it you can't use it' rule right? It's not a suggestion...
As a VL (or VC or VA) this job (duty if you like) is spelled out for you in rather plain detail. Now I am not encouraging anyone to become the 'Paizo Supplement Police' but adopting a fully apathetic attitude towards occasionally checking player resources does seem to be dropping the ball.
When I'm GM'ing, I'm there to GM. The purpose for the requirement is to make sure that a GM who is unfamiliar with the rule(s) has a source that they can reference.
At this point, I personally don't care if they have a watermarked .pdf - it would take them less time to make one than it would for me to check every non-core watermarked reference. I know that I routinely brought 60+ lbs of books to various games. I almost never needed them and know what a pain in the <adjective which can be used as a verb> <noun> it is. I prefer to limit my hypocrisy, so no, I'm not the "Paizo Supplement Police" when I'm GM'ing.
/end counter-rant
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So, just to counter your reply to BNW (Quote: "This is a bit of an exaggeration"), you DIDN'T have 240 pages of watermarked PDFs in that tiny backpack of yours?It's a PDF, you dont need to print them out.Not everyone has that luxury.
BNW was responding to someone who prints out a truckload of paper to bring to a Convention.
You responded with "This is a bit of an exaggeration".
Your reply was thusly inappropriate (and lends credence to his point).
So it's a choice. You don't have to use material from 8 different hardbacks to make a character, but if you choose to... you need to have the resources on hand. If someone builds a character that requires '240 pages of watermarked PDFs' then yes, they should be prepared to show any of the 240 pages.
We've a local player who's our 'kineticist expert' he brings all the info for his character. His fiancé has in her folder the pages for her shadow spiritualist thingy. Neither really *need* to, we know and trust them. But when the issue comes up "You do HOW much damage?" Or "It can do what?" they both have the material handy.
As to characters... I'm working on -25 for this season. Some I don't play anymore because they don't interest me. Some are so obsolete I don't bother (fighter/rogue < slayer) some I don't play because their chronicle sheets are damaged/lost/destroyed and I don't want to take the effort to rebuild them. There's a reason some of my characters say 2.0. It's because I rebuilt them from scratch rather than try to hunt down sheets.
to Kahel's point about numbers. Yeah, mine are a mess too. That's why the chronicle sheets are an official record. If I lose the sheets, yeah, my character is boned. That's my choice to run that risk. I just went through and printed out all the sheets for my GM blob vigilante. I need to track down two for my Werechihuahua. So we might all be 'sketchy' on some paperwork. And the risk of doing that? That you can't play the character at the table.
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It's a fact of life that most PbP games die due to players losing interest, real life events occurring, or GM getting overwhelmed. GM getting overwhelmed seems to happen most often with freeform games.
One of the reasons that I like running PFS games PbP is that they're short enough that we can have an adventure and finish it in 3-5 weeks. People can hang on that long, especially if they have a GM and fellow players that post 1-2 times a day and keep things always moving. I think that the player and GM dropout rate is far less likely to occur in PFS than in other PbPs.
As for the checking resources thing... I do ask people if they have the books for non-core stuff that they purchase before we start a game, or if they throw something really strange at me. But most of the time, I act on trust that my players have the books that they say they do.
I only audit when things look weird or when I see an obvious mistake in how something's supposed to run.
Especially when someone tells me at the start of the game they cannot pick up a wand of Infernal healing because they don't own the book. If they something along those lines, I'm more inclined to trust them with everything else.
Hmm
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Well, yeah. Proof of ownership IS only half the reason you need to bring the books after all.
No, proof of ownership is .0001% of the reason to bring the books. Having the reference on hand for the GM to read during a game is 99.9999% of the reason.
I'm there to be the GM, not the Paizo Copyright Police.
And the last PFS coordinator (Mike Brock) agreed with that sentiment on the forums when a similar argument to this broke out a couple of years ago.
This is a bit of an exaggeration.
I currently have about 24 different characters, ranging from level 2 GM blobs up to level 18 or so. I have about 18 active characters between level 2 and 11 with at least 4 in the 10-11 bracket.
I played at Paizocon UK this year in 5 different slots, one of which was Serpent's Ire. I brought two characters for each other slot. I played Abducted in Aether, Orders from the Gate, Sun Orchid Scheme and Labyrinth of Hungry Ghosts. 8 characters ranging from level 4 to level 11.
It took all of two relatively small folders, one manilla folder with chronicles sorted by character, one flip file with character sheets and references for stuff like spells.
Everything fitted quite easily into a small backpack along with dice, mini's, bottles of water and snacks and a small desk fan.
Wait. You only bring 2 PCs at a time? And your number of "active" PCs is that much lower than your total count?
When I say that I have 23 PCs, I mean 23 physical folders, each with a pencil and paper character sheet, ITS, faction card, and any chronicle sheets that apply. For the more complicated guys, I also have printouts of rules from the books of some things I'll want to reference while playing. But GM blobs don't count.
And when I show up to play, or even to GM, I bring ALL of them, with one exception: my level 14 is retired, so he stays home. But I can't count how many times I've been signed up to play or GM one adventure and ended up doing something else entirely. So I bring everything, just in case. Not enough players for the scenario I was going to GM? Is there extra space at the 1-5 table or the 7-11 table for me?
Even the 3 PCs I got bored with, or consider too underpowered/outdated to bother with, are still brought to game days. Ironically, I've played 2 of those 3 in the last 6 months: one because a group really wanted someone to fill a particular role, even though the PC is severely underpowered otherwise, and once because I decided to bring my most "expendable" PC to Bonekeep. I don't play pregens.
I gave up on fitting them all, along with a tablet, minis, dice, snacks, and those half a dozen splat books I bought as hard copies before I realized I should switch to pdfs, into a backpack. They just about fit, but it was a pain to carry.
Before GenCon this year, I went to Office Depot and picked up what's essentially a milk crate with wheels and a handle. Now I can carry all of that, plus a bigger carrier for my minis instead of cramming them in baggies where they sometimes get broken, and my physical Core Rulebook, Bestiary (useful when summoning), and other stuff easily. But I also don't take the bus or train to games, and my box o' books does take up an annoying amount of space around the gaming table.
So yeah, I once again completely agree with BNW on this.
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Regarding my printing off "a truckload of paper", yeah I realize printing out the entire section on kineticists was probably going overboard. And it was the single biggest hit that caused me to run out of ink for a while. Other one was printing maps when I GM. But I only had to print it out once. If I play another kineticist for PFS such as Flo Ra'Cir, a hydrokineticst, then I already have that information on hand. So I only need to include info on race (if non-core), archtype, feats, and gear. But at low levels the feats I want are generally from the CRB. It's not till around level 5 or so that I start looking at the weird or interesting feats from AR sources.
For my spiritualist I only printed out the info from Blood of Angels I'd need (aasimar race, info on the alternate racial heritage I picked, and info on the trait I picked). Then I printed out the pages for the Ectoplasmist archtype because it changed many class features that otherwise would have been needed to have info on hand. That's four watermarked pdf pages that I printed out for the character.
Also, I seriously wish the concept of legally buying a PDF of gaming books had occurred far earlier then it did. Would have saved my back so many times when playing in or GMing a 3.5 or rifts campaign.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I'm not saying it can't be done its just seriously increasing the Porcupines in the aspen to fun ratio.I have a level 4 character that is more complicated in terms of paperwork than any of your level 11 characters or anyone's for that matter. Its not that hard to document that stuff. Admittedly, I've only documented 57 out of my triple digit abilities but still that includes the more important abilities.
That's cute on a level 2 but it's significantly harder on a level 11, especially with a spell list.
I feel like if you actually play a complicated character and not just one that uses multiple sources it makes the game run so much faster if you do thing you are complaining about.
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I feel like if you actually play a complicated character and not just one that uses multiple sources it makes the game run so much faster if you do thing you are complaining about.
I have yet to see a poster touting their allegedly superior mad gamer skillz actually offer anything substantive or insightful to how I should be running the game or my life. But thanks.
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I think the last thing we need is more paperwork
I think the last thing we need is more people making a mockery of the PFS rules by making any character they want without regard for owning the books.
I am not the richest person in the world, but I have paid my own hard earned money for ALL the books/pdfs I use. I have actually been told by gm's, oh, nevermind, I know you own your sources. Because I have show them before. I am now know in our local group as a person who follows the rules. But that's just who I am.
And it frustrates me to see people say I as a GM shouldn't audit my characters. I don't have to do a full audit every time. Sometimes I just say let me see your spells memorized/known list and check them. One thing at a time, quick and easy, not a full character audit everytime.
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I think the last thing we need is more paperworkI think the last thing we need is more people making a mockery of the PFS rules by making any character they want without regard for owning the books.
I am not the richest person in the world, but I have paid my own hard earned money for ALL the books/pdfs I use. I have actually been told by gm's, oh, nevermind, I know you own your sources. Because I have show them before. I am now know in our local group as a person who follows the rules. But that's just who I am.
And it frustrates me to see people say I as a GM shouldn't audit my characters. I don't have to do a full audit every time. Sometimes I just say let me see your spells memorized/known list and check them. One thing at a time, quick and easy, not a full character audit everytime.
There's some things that yeah, I'll agree get overlooked for good reason. The GM is suppose to hand each player the chronicle and let the player fill out the top part and their starting prestige/gold totals, then the GM reviews it and fill in the rest before signing. But honestly you might not have the time to do that after session. Especially in a public venue.
Other things like verifying sources, there's no real reason not to do this. You're suppose to anyway. If the problem is you as a player take too long to load each pdf, then take the time at home to print stuff off. Even printing one page is enough to prove you own the source. Or pre-load the pdfs before you head out for the game. I've done that before then put my tablet in sleep mode. Or find another way to do the resource verification that you're comfortable with and is fast enough to fit your desired time frame.
I want to be an easy going yet fair GM. When I show up to a game, I am there to have fun. If I'm the GM, I'm there to have fun and tell a story. I'm not there to be the enemy. I don't want to be a bastard. But at the same time as the GM I do need to maintain the rules of the game and campaign. The rules are clearly laid out in the guild guide, so in my opinion there's no excuse for not observing them. How to fill out the chronicle is a bit more fast and loose then what resources you can use, and when.
I dislike doing character audits in general. In a face to face game, I'm not even going to do a partial audit unless something feels off. I'm just going to verify your sources, but honestly I'm probably going to have to trust the other person that those are the only sources they used. Major things like a class, I'll ask to see their copy of the book it's in. Traits, feats, equipment, and spells I likely wont even know what book their in. So that's on the honor system. And I'm not going to go over your inventory tracking sheet unless something feels off. So until you pull out that flying grapple I don't know you had it.
In play-by-post games I'm much more strict in regards to character audits. But then again, there's also a lot more time to do said audit. And I've had far more experience with people cheating (by accident or intentionally) in PbP format. I'm also use to having pbp players who aren't familiar with the system so I need to double check their math anyway to ensure they do get all the bonuses they are suppose to.
Honestly, I don't care what books my players have or don't have. I only care if they have the books needed to run their character. If it was a home campaign then I don't mind being the one to supply all the books. I've done it for years. But for organized play, it's not my job to ensure I have every book published. It's just my job to ensure the player has the books he or she needs to run their character.
Mind you, I WANT almost all the official books. But it's not my job to supply all the books needed at the table. Just the ones needed to run my character.
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I think the last thing we need is more people making a mockery of the PFS rules by making any character they want without regard for owning the books.
Somewhere between everyone having every book and everyone making whatever they want is a happy enforcible medium where you don't scare off all your potential players but people still buy enough stuff to keep the lights on. Even from a purely machavilian stance, 100 people gaming with 80% compliance is better than 50 people gaming with 100% compliance.
From a more realistic standpoint the kind of audits you need to do to hit 100% compliance drive people off: there is no way i am scanning saving and emailing 30 sheets to play a game. The amount of paperwork we have dives people off.
And it frustrates me to see people say I as a GM shouldn't audit my characters. I don't have to do a full audit every time. Sometimes I just say let me see your spells memorized/known list and check them. One thing at a time, quick and easy, not a full character audit everytime.
I'm not saying don't audit, i'm saying a full audit isn't worth it.
I don't think that would be quick or easy. The poster i was responding to had everything printed out and not on a kindle, but that is really not an option for some people and looking up where every item came from on a spell list and then seeing if i have it on the kindle and them rumaging through the geek bag for the print is going to take some time.You could do almost the same thing scrolling through my pdf and looking at my geek bag and say 'okay he's paid off some paizonians student loan bills..."
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I think the whole auditing thing is more meant to be "on the books," so if it comes up, the GM has permission to verify your character sheet. Far too much of this game (and PFS) is honor system to really get into regular use of the audit option. I'll also note that PFS uses unpaid, volunteer GMs for everything, and much of the organization of the PFS organized play is entirely donated effort (which is especially impressive for a for-profit business to have so many volunteers). So while the option to audit is nice to have, making GMs put in more time to make a session work is just unreasonable. Our local GMs would only check after a player sported some pretty questionable options in the session, and even there, they'd wait until after the session was over.
As a player, I ask the GM at the start with any questionable elements of my character. For my first few sessions with a new character, I try to bring every related book, but later sessions with that character will feature a lighter book load. If I don't used a book in every session, I'll stop bringing it. If it comes up in a session where I need that book, I'll bring it next time. Rules disputes are usually ruled by the GM, then looked up later, anyway. I haven't run into any issues with this method.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I feel like if you actually play a complicated character and not just one that uses multiple sources it makes the game run so much faster if you do thing you are complaining about.I have yet to see a poster touting their allegedly superior mad gamer skillz actually offer anything substantive or insightful to how I should be running the game or my life. But thanks.
The person whose repeatedly engaged with me in conversation about how he doesn't know how X works or that X doesn't exist or that X is useless when it isn't should not be the person who complains that there is too much paperwork. You are the exact person why its needed.
Also, what are you building that you require that many sources that it becomes unmanageable? That screams more of either a wild exaggeration or that you want to show off your leet gaming skillz too.