Familiars are confusing


Rules Questions


1. Iv'e heard Tiny Familiars gain a +4 bonus to Fly, and a +8 bonus to
Stealth. Is this true? And similarly, do Small and Diminutive familiars also receive bonuses?

2. The Hawk and Owl familiars to sight-based and opposed perception checks in bright light and shadows, respectively. What does the opposed perception check mean?

3. Many familiars have the Weapon Finesse feat when obtaining them. How does this work? Can familiars use weapons?

4. Chicken and Peacock familiars have 'Clumsy' flight. Is there any way to improve their fly maneuverability.

5. Similarly, how would I determine a familiar's flight maneuverability if it gains a flight speed. (The Heavens Spirit of Shaman grants a 5ft. fly speed.)

6. Small animal familiars provoke AO, but Tiny and Diminutive do not?

7. When vermin familiars gain Intelligence, do they lose immunity to Mind-affecting effects?

8. The Thrush, Parrot, and Raven are said to be able to speak one language. Is this chosen by the master? And similarly, what are the extents it can be used? Magic Items? Distraction?

9. Would the Share Spells/ Comprehend Languages combination allow a scout familiar to maybe lean over an evil wizard's shoulder, decipher a language, and speak with master (Level 5th) to relay the message?

10. Each familiar has their own stats, including Int. Their Intelligence increases with their master's level starting at 6. Do they combine or do you use the base 6 Int?

Sorry for so many questions I am currently trying to decide a familiar.

Scarab Sages

RandomNigel wrote:

1. Iv'e heard Tiny Familiars gain a +4 bonus to Fly, and a +8 bonus to

Stealth. Is this true? And similarly, do Small and Diminutive familiars also receive bonuses?

2. The Hawk and Owl familiars to sight-based and opposed perception checks in bright light and shadows, respectively. What does the opposed perception check mean?

3. Many familiars have the Weapon Finesse feat when obtaining them. How does this work? Can familiars use weapons?

4. Chicken and Peacock familiars have 'Clumsy' flight. Is there any way to improve their fly maneuverability.

5. Similarly, how would I determine a familiar's flight maneuverability if it gains a flight speed. (The Heavens Spirit of Shaman grants a 5ft. fly speed.)

6. Small animal familiars provoke AO, but Tiny and Diminutive do not?

7. When vermin familiars gain Intelligence, do they lose immunity to Mind-affecting effects?

8. The Thrush, Parrot, and Raven are said to be able to speak one language. Is this chosen by the master? And similarly, what are the extents it can be used? Magic Items? Distraction?

9. Would the Share Spells/ Comprehend Languages combination allow a scout familiar to maybe lean over an evil wizard's shoulder, decipher a language, and speak with master (Level 5th) to relay the message?

10. Each familiar has their own stats, including Int. Their Intelligence increases with their master's level starting at 6. Do they combine or do you use the base 6 Int?

Sorry for so many questions I am currently trying to decide a familiar.

1) It is true, but not limited to familiars. Check the size modifiers chart

2)An example of an opposed perception check is rolling perception vs a stealth roll.

3)All familiars use their dex or str for melee attacks, whichever is higher whether they have weapon finesse or not. It is in the basic rules for familiars. No familiar may use a manufactured weapon without a GMs approval but all familiars have a natural attack(or unarmed strike) of some kind.

4)Not without some sort of spell, as far as I know. But I don't know it all yet.

5)From the fly rules, "Creatures without a maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability and take no penalty on Fly checks."

6)I'm not sure what you mean? Provoke when?

7)Yes, they lose the lose the immunity as they now have a mind.

8)They gain a language chosen by their master.

9)As a familiar has an intelligence score higher than 2, they automatically understand at least 1 language. Though most familiars can not speak. To understand additional languages comprehend languages can be used or you can take ranks in Linguistics which transfer to the familiar. So long as the familiar may speak to you it may relay any information it learns.

10) You use the higher of the two scores, the creatures natural int or the int granted by their master.

Liberty's Edge

1. You can see here Creature Sizes that the bonus to stealth and fly changes based on size. For a Tiny creature it is +8/+4, for a Small creature it is +4/+2.

2. Opposed perception check is where one creature attempts a skill role, and you oppose it with a perception check - stealth, or sleight of hand, for example.

3. Most familiars cannot use weapons - some Improved Familiars can. However, natural weapons count as light weapons for the purposes of feats, and so are finessible. It means that familiars can use dex to attack with their natural attacks.

4. There is no way to improve the manoeuvrability of a flight speed naturally, as far as I know.

5. As far as I know, it should list it if non-magical. If it’s magical, there is no effect from manoeuvrability. Otherwise I assume that it’s average.

6. They provoke AoOs for doing what? Moving into an enemies square, or through their threatened areas? All provoke for that. What specific action are you thinking of?

7. When a vermin familiar gains intelligence, it is no longer INT - , and so it is no longer mindless. The mindless quality is the reason that they are immune to mind-affecting effects, and so yes, they do lose their immunity.

8. As far as I know, the language is chosen by the master, it’s a supernatural ability and they are completely fluent with it.

9. If you cast Comprehend Languages on your familiar, it can read any language. If it is 5th level or higher, it can speak to you, and is sufficiently intelligent that it should be able to tell you anything that a normal human being could have learnt whilst reading a language they speak fluently.

10. The INT score given is the total – you use 6 at 1st level, no matter what the base creature is.

No issue with lots of questions – that’s what the forums are for!


Thanks guys so much! And in regards to 6. pathfinder rules about familiars talks about small familiars not being used in battle because if they move to an adjacent square, the opponent can take AO. I wanted to know if this was true, if Tiny and Diminutive familiars bypass this, and if with the Valet Archetype I still threaten a square if I can move before and after the action?

Scarab Sages

Additional information regarding the difference in my answers and Arcaian's
5) The rule is average if it is not listed. Magical flight does typically have a maneuverability though. There are two types of flight, with wings and magical. I think he means the spell fly and overland flight do not have maneuverability, which gives a scaling fly bonus instead of a flat maneuverability.
10) Standard stacking rules apply. You use the higher of two options if they don't stack together unless otherwise noted.

Scarab Sages

RandomNigel wrote:
Thanks guys so much! And in regards to 5. pathfinder rules about familiars talks about small familiars not being used in battle because if they move to an adjacent square, the opponent can take AO. I wanted to know if this was true, if Tiny and Diminutive familiars bypass this, and if with the Valet Archetype I still threaten a square if I can move before and after the action?

Familiars have no special rules in regards to AOOs and movement. No matter the creature size, if it moves through a threatened space it provokes unless it has a specific ability which prevents it.

A creature only threatens squares that its reach allows. If a familiar is smaller than small and has no additional reaching capabilities, its reach is 0 and will not threaten adjacent squares. A small valet will threaten any adjacent square since they usually have 5 foot reach. That same small familiar will threaten all adjacent squares from each square they are in during movement, but this will almost never matter. Since AOOs typically happen off of your turn and extremely few situations would allow for them mid-move.


AOO happens after my turn? So even if I provoke as a small valet, I can deliver touch spell and retreat with no fear?

Scarab Sages

RandomNigel wrote:
AOO happens after my turn? So even if I provoke as a small valet, I can deliver touch spell and retreat with no fear?

Ah, it seems your question wording did not match your intended question. It seemed you were asking about what squares your familiar threatened during its move. I now see you were asking about squares that were threatened that your familiar is moving through. Ignore my previous answer.

To clarify, if your familiar provokes an attack of opportunity for moving through a threatened square that AOO happens immediately. Then you finish taking your actions. This is not different for familiars than for any other creature. You always provoke for moving through a threatened square if you do not have a specific ability which avoids this. No matter your size. The valet ability to move, attack and move again does not negate this.


Ahh okay thank you so either way if you intend to attack or deliver a touch spell on a target you are moving through its threatened squares and provoke AO. In that case it would be better then to leave valets to lending aid and cure light to party members and leave enemies to the master.

Scarab Sages

RandomNigel wrote:
Ahh okay thank you so either way if you intend to attack or deliver a touch spell on a target you are moving through its threatened squares and provoke AO. In that case it would be better then to leave valets to lending aid and cure light to party members and leave enemies to the master.

Or to take ranks in acrobatics and have them tumble.


Thanks this has really helped so much :) time to get cracking and pick a fluffy familiar :)

Liberty's Edge

Arcaian wrote:

3. Most familiars cannot use weapons - some Improved Familiars can. However, natural weapons count as light weapons for the purposes of feats, and so are finessible. It means that familiars can use dex to attack with their natural attacks.

As per magic item slots monkeys familiars have all item slots, including hands.

Scarab Sages

nennafir wrote:
Arcaian wrote:

3. Most familiars cannot use weapons - some Improved Familiars can. However, natural weapons count as light weapons for the purposes of feats, and so are finessible. It means that familiars can use dex to attack with their natural attacks.

As per magic item slots monkeys familiars have all item slots, including hands.

Yes, but if you read the information describing the chart for animal companion and familiar body slots given in Animal Archive you will find that it is only sort of true. It says that animal bodies, though they may have hands(or other effective graspers) it is up to the GM whether or not those hands are sufficient to wield a weapon. It is officially a GM decision for Pathfinder instead of being definitely one way or the other.

Sczarni

Lorewalker wrote:
I think he means the spell fly and overland flight do not have maneuverability, which gives a scaling fly bonus instead of a flat maneuverability.

Fly (and Overland Flight, since it references Fly) grant a +4 bonus due to "Good" maneuverability, in addition to half caster level.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
I think he means the spell fly and overland flight do not have maneuverability, which gives a scaling fly bonus instead of a flat maneuverability.
Fly (and Overland Flight, since it references Fly) grant a +4 bonus due to "Good" maneuverability, in addition to half caster level.

Well, yes. I described it poorly. Thanks.


nennafir wrote:
Arcaian wrote:

3. Most familiars cannot use weapons - some Improved Familiars can. However, natural weapons count as light weapons for the purposes of feats, and so are finessible. It means that familiars can use dex to attack with their natural attacks.

As per magic item slots monkeys familiars have all item slots, including hands.

Remember, if you're playing in PFS then you must buy available slots (with the exception of Barding and Neck slot) with the Extra Item Slot feat.

FAQ


When calculating a familiars CMB does it allow to use the master's BAB and does allow to choose between Str or Dex whichever is higher?

Scarab Sages

RandomNigel wrote:
When calculating a familiars CMB does it allow to use the master's BAB and does allow to choose between Str or Dex whichever is higher?

The familiar is considered to have the master's BAB. So, yes. A familiar may use dex or str when using a natural weapon, this includes combat maneuvers that use weapons(trip, disarm, sunder) no matter their size. This is good to know as your familiar may not always be tiny or smaller(mauler familiar/polymorph spells).

But they will use strength on any non-weapon based combat maneuver unless they are tiny or smaller where they can use their dex without a feat.


Ugh trying to break down the Scarlet Spider's stats is terrible. +21 climb, but a +8 racial, +5 Dex, +1 rank, and +3 class only add up to 17. Where does the other 4 go???


Similarly, the Raven has 6 Perception with +2 Wis and +3 Skill focus. Missing 1


Maybe 1 skill rank and not a class skill? I would figure animals would have Perception as a class skill though....

But yeah, breaking up the stats is confusing.


Animals do have Perception as a class skill. and the only reason why i'm breaking them down is to analyze how each creature works. at my table players avoid animal familiars and companions because the process of converting them is really confusing. i want to maybe remedy that and perhaps make a guide to familiars (as i havent found an updated one) detailing just how many uses each one can get. A lot of them are very interesting and its a shame how some people overlook them


RandomNigel wrote:

Animals do have Perception as a class skill. and the only reason why i'm breaking them down is to analyze how each creature works. at my table players avoid animal familiars and companions because the process of converting them is really confusing. i want to maybe remedy that and perhaps make a guide to familiars (as i havent found an updated one) detailing just how many uses each one can get. A lot of them are very interesting and its a shame how some people overlook them

Perhaps the raven's +6 perception is without the Skill Focus bonus? 2(wis) + 1(skill rank) + 3 (class skill) = 6

If you figure it out, let me know as well.


The Toad applies its Skill Focus bonus. (+2 Wis) (+3 Skill Focus) = 5

The Raven also has Weapon Finesse. Perhaps it was an error and wasn't supposed to have both weapon finesse and Skill Focus. Other bird familiars only have one Feat.

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