PFS Wayang Ninja Input


Advice


Greetings!

I'm building a Wayang Ninja for PFS. Here's what I have so far.

Str 12 (+1)
Dex 18 (+4)
Con 14 (+2)
Int 10 (+0)
Wis 8 (-1)
Cha 14 (+2)

1 - weapon finesse
2 - ninja trick: vanishing trick
3 - feat: Two Weapon Fighting,
4 - Attr: Dex , Ninja trick: pressure points/bleeding/shadow clone?,
5 - feat: skill focus stealth
6 - ninja trick: pressure points/bleeding strike/shadow clone?,
7 - feat: Hell cat stealth,
8 - Attr: Dex, ninja trick: pressure points/bleeding strike/shadow clone?
9 - feat:________ ,
10 - Master tricks, ninja trick:___________
11 - feat:______________

New to building through the process of character building - thoughts on this so far?

I contemplated giving up wakizashi for shortswords and dipping into monk, but flurry of blows doesn't work with shortswords just unarmed or monk weapons.

Scarab Sages

You've got a good start, but I have some suggestions to hopefully improve the build.

You can get by with a 10 STR since you'll be wearing light armor. Get a mithral chain shirt as soon as you can. That will let you boost your WIS to 10 to avoid a penalty to what is already a terrible save for Ninjas. Otherwise, your stats look pretty good.

If you want, you can get Hellcat Stealth at 6th level by using your Ninja Trick for Combat Trick. If you think you might take Forgotten Trick at some point, though, you're better off not selecting Combat Trick, so you can pick any combat feat you qualify for up for a limited time using Forgotten Trick. It's effectively Martial Flexibility for a Ninja at the cost of 2 ki (eventually buy a ring of Ki Mastery to bring that cost down).

If you do use Combat Trick to get Hellcat Stealth a level earlier, it frees up your 7th level feat. You could get Hellcat Pounce or start another feat chain. 9th level feat is probably Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. More attacks is more sneak attack damage. Even with the penalties for an iterative, when you have a flank and buffs going, you'll land some iteratives. I can tell you from experience, with haste, a ki attack, and two iteratives, you can churn out a lot of damage when you get to full round with a flank. You won't always land both iteratives, but you'll have more chances to land at least one of them.

Ninjas have accuracy issues, though, so I strongly suggest taking Weapon Focus with one of your Ninja tricks. I'm also a fan of Offensive Defense, as it works every time you sneak attack without costing Ki.

Your 10th level Master Trick should probably be Invisible Blade. Hellcat Stealth is great for getting a single sneak attack off, but with as many attacks as you'll have by 10th level, it's worth it to get the Improved Invisibility. My alternate choice would be Evasion.

Improved Will is a good option to fit in somewhere, and if you do take Evasion at 10, then Twist Away is a good option for 11, even with it causing you to be staggered for a round.


Ferious Thune wrote:

...Ninjas have accuracy issues, though, so I strongly suggest taking Weapon Focus with one of your Ninja tricks. I'm also a fan of Offensive Defense, as it works every time you sneak attack without costing Ki.

Your 10th level Master Trick should probably be Invisible Blade. Hellcat Stealth is great for getting a single sneak attack off, but with as many attacks as you'll have by 10th level, it's worth it to get the Improved Invisibility. My alternate choice would be Evasion.

Improved Will is a good option to fit in somewhere, and if you do take Evasion at 10, then Twist Away is a good option for 11, even with it causing...

Thanks for the response!

The accuracy issues have concerned me and made it difficult to build especially with in a PFS setting.

So I've taken some of your suggestions into consideration:

Str 10 (+0)
Dex 18 (+4)
Con 14 (+2)
Int 10 (+0)
Wis 10 (+0)
Cha 14 (+2)

*pick up a mithral chain shirt

1 - weapon finesse
2 - ninja trick: vanishing trick
3 - feat: Two Weapon Fighting,
4 - Attr: Dex , Ninja trick: pressure points/weapon focus,
5 - feat: skill focus stealth
6 - ninja trick: combat trick: Hell cat stealth,
7 - feat: Hellcat pounce?,
8 - Attr: Dex, ninja trick: pressure points/weapon focus
9 - feat:________ ,
10 - Master tricks: Invisible blade, ninja trick: shadow clone
11 - feat:______________

I guess a few follow up questions - do you know of any way to be able to have your dex modifier apply to damage in PFS?
If not I suppose, magic items that increase strength are in order.

I'm undecided on pressure points or weapon focus at level 4. Weapon focus helps with the hitting, but pressure points is so debilitating. However, you need to be able to hit in order to use it. But that pushes pressure points to level 8 then.

Would a wise tactic during combat to be hit and run....sneak attack, disappear, sneak attack, rinse and repeat?

Thanks again for the input!

Scarab Sages

For a two-weapon fighting build, Agile weapon enhancement is the only thing that really works for Dex to damage. Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace both require that your off hand be unoccupied, and Dervish Dance requires a scimitar and that you not be holding a weapon in your off hand.

You only get half Dex to damage with your off hand weapon, even if you have an Agile weapon in it, and Double Slice doesn't work for Dex. I took an Agile weapon for my main hand and a Menacing weapon for my off hand. Menacing doubles the flank bonus for you and your allies while you are adjacent to the enemy. You can't really get either until around 6th level in PFS due to fame requirements, though.

The only issue I see with the hit and run tactic is that it isn't compatible with two-weapon fighting. Even if you can re-enter stealth from a 5-foot step, you'll only get sneak attack on your first attack after breaking stealth. So using Hellcat Stealth can get you 1 sneak attack a round, but not multiple. Otherwise, having a consistent way to get at least one sneak attack in is nice.

For 10th level, you only get 1 Ninja trick, which can be either a regular ninja trick or a Master trick. You don't get a Master Trick AND a regular Ninja Trick. There is some good news, though. The Extra Ninja Trick feat now exists in Blood of Shadows, so you could take shadow clone with one of those empty feat slots if you really want to.


Mechanically, it's arguably better to take 3-4 levels of Weapon Master, and use the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to make up half of the lost Sneak Attack damage. Weapon Master gets you Weapon Training at 3, as well as the option of taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat at 4 (even multiple times).

Weapon Training grants +1 attack and damage bonuses that can be improved to +3 with Gloves of Dueling, and Advanced Weapon Training can be used to get Trained Grace, which doubles Weapon Training bonuses on finesse attacks that use strength for damage. So if you have Weapon Master 4, take Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Grace, and buy Gloves of Dueling, you will get a bonus +3 to all attack rolls and a bonus +6 to all damage rolls.

Of course this is all fancy multiclassing stuff from sources like the Weapon Master's Handbook, so it may not be what you're looking to do.


Ferious Thune wrote:
For a two-weapon fighting build, Agile weapon enhancement is the only thing that really works for Dex to damage. Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace both require that your off hand be unoccupied, and Dervish Dance requires a scimitar and that you not be holding a weapon in your off hand.

These are somethings, I'll have to look into. Just looking briefly at slashing grace, it talks about the other hand being unoccupied. Would that mean it wouldn't be applicable if you were using a one handed weapon (wakizashi for instance) but were two handing with it, as now your off hand is technically occupied?

Ferious Thune wrote:


The only issue I see with the hit and run tactic is that it isn't compatible with two-weapon fighting. Even if you can re-enter stealth from a 5-foot step, you'll only get sneak attack on your first attack after breaking stealth. So using Hellcat Stealth can get you 1 sneak attack a round, but not multiple. Otherwise, having a consistent way to get at least one sneak attack in is nice.

Say you had two attacks as a TWF, and you break stealth - only the first attack would grant sneak attack damage? The second attack would be just as normal only?

In general if you wanted to hit and hide a single weapon attack would be better?

Ferious Thune wrote:


For 10th level, you only get 1 Ninja trick, which can be either a regular ninja trick or a Master trick. You don't get a Master Trick AND a regular Ninja Trick. There is some good news, though. The Extra Ninja Trick feat now exists in Blood of Shadows, so you could take shadow clone with one of those empty feat slots if you really want to.

Thanks for this clarification!

Thinking over the build idea, this particular character is a Wayang Ninja. He currently has +14 to stealth, which will increase by 1 each level up and then another 3 at level five with skill focus. Giving him a +22 on stealth alone. Plus he's got the racial trait Dissolution's child which allows for once a day to turn into a shadow acting in the same way as invisibility.

I know Vanishing trick is needed for Invisible blade, but is it redundant to pick it up as the first ninja trick, with such a high stealth and an alternate day to turn 'invisible'?

There also obvious merits to spending a ki and becoming invisible.


BadBird wrote:

Mechanically, it's arguably better to take 3-4 levels of Weapon Master, and use the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to make up half of the lost Sneak Attack damage. Weapon Master gets you Weapon Training at 3, as well as the option of taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat at 4 (even multiple times).

Weapon Training grants +1 attack and damage bonuses that can be improved to +3 with Gloves of Dueling, and Advanced Weapon Training can be used to get Trained Grace, which doubles Weapon Training bonuses on finesse attacks that use strength for damage. So if you have Weapon Master 4, take Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Grace, and buy Gloves of Dueling, you will get a bonus +3 to all attack rolls and a bonus +6 to all damage rolls.

Of course this is all fancy multiclassing stuff from sources like the Weapon Master's Handbook, so it may not be what you're looking to do.

This sounds interesting and may have to look into it! Thanks!

I'm not opposed to multiclassing, just very new to the concept of it.


It's also legal in PFS to take the Scout Archetype on a Ninja, which is pretty much a straight upgrade. It simply trades the Uncanny Dodge stuff for automatic Sneak Attack in some situations.

There are a million different ways to 'improve' the Ninja with multiclassing, though it does mean that the Invisible Blade Advanced Ninja Trick gets pushed back or completely out of PFS levels, instead of being available at the very end.

Snakebite Striker Brawler would give you Brawler's Flurry and some Sneak Attack by level 2, or the ability to feint while moving if you go to 3. With Brawler's Flurry, you can wear a shield and mithral medium armor and still flurry with a Close or Monk weapon just fine.

Scarab Sages

A few things...

A wakizashi is a light weapon, not a one-handed weapon, so you get no benefit from wielding it with two hands.

If you wield a one-handed weapon with two hands, it no longer works with Slashing Grace.

But, that's not really an issue, since you don't get 1 1/2x Dex to damage when using a weapon two-handed (unless you're an Unchained Rogue).

You could wield a single wakizashi one-handed and benefit from Slashing Grace. That is a potential direction to go. The earliest Slashing Grace could come online for a Wayang Ninja is 3rd level. 1st Level - Weapon Finesse. 2nd Level - Weapon Focus via Ninja Trick. 3rd Level - Slashing Grace.

That style may work better with Hellcat Stealth than TWF. You could take Vanishing Trick at 4th instead of 2nd.

For invisibility/stealth and sneak attacks... Your opponent is only flat-footed against the first attack that you make after breaking concealment. If you use Vanishing Trick then full attack, you'll still only get 1 sneak attack that round. Same goes for emerging from stealth. To get multiple sneak attacks, you need something that makes them flat-footed until the end of your turn. So, Improved Two-Weapon Feint (a long feat chain, though, that doesn't really pay off until 9th level) or Greater Feint in combination with something that lets you feint faster than a move action. Dazzling Display. Or Greater Invisibility, which Invisible Blade gets you. That's why Invisible Blade is so good, because you start getting full rounds of sneak attacks.

The idea behind Ninja going TWF is to try to get as many sneak attacks off in a round as possible. But you still need to be in a position to get a sneak attack. To really take advantage of TWF, you need a flank or Greater Invisibility. My Ninja went the two-weapon feint route, so from 3rd through 8th, I could reliably get 1 sneak attack against most creatures even without a flank. From 9th on, I could get 4 sneak attacks without a flank (off hand primary, main hand iterative, off hand iterative, ki attack) or 5 with haste. With a flank, it's 5 or 6 sneak attacks.

As for the Scout archetype, it is true that currently it works for most GMs. However, there have been designer statements in the last couple of years that indicate it maybe doesn't work after all, and there's a fairly significant possibility than an FAQ could hit that makes it clear that Rogue archetypes don't work for a Ninja. That's a whole separate thread.

I would say ultimately, for your build, Vanishing Trick is probably worth it. There will be times when you roll poorly on stealth, even with a +22, and an observant enemy will still see you. Hellcat Stealth imposes a -10, after all. I think my Investigator's Perception was around +20 before Inspiration by 5th or 6th level (It's at +29 at 10th level). NPCs don't optimize Perception like PCs do, but I've seen several with bonuses in the mid-teens.


Ferious Thune wrote:
As for the Scout archetype, it is true that currently it works for most GMs. However, there have been designer statements in the last couple of years that indicate it maybe doesn't work after all, and there's a fairly significant possibility than an FAQ could hit that makes it clear that Rogue archetypes don't work for a Ninja. That's a whole separate thread.

I'm sure I saw a definitive 'yes' to Scout Ninja referenced more than once lately, but I don't remember where... hmm.


Ferious Thune wrote:

A few things...

But, that's not really an issue, since you don't get 1 1/2x Dex to damage when using a weapon two-handed (unless you're an Unchained Rogue).

Which I did run across and briefly consider. But to go 3 levels of unchained rogue only allows for 8 levels of ninja which for goes the Invisible blade master trick.

Ferious Thune wrote:


You could wield a single wakizashi one-handed and benefit from Slashing Grace. That is a potential direction to go. The earliest Slashing Grace could come online for a Wayang Ninja is 3rd level. 1st Level - Weapon Finesse. 2nd Level - Weapon Focus via Ninja Trick. 3rd Level - Slashing Grace.

That style may work better with Hellcat Stealth than TWF. You could take Vanishing Trick at 4th instead of 2nd.

For invisibility/stealth and sneak attacks... Your opponent is only flat-footed against the first attack that you make after breaking concealment. If you use Vanishing Trick then full attack, you'll still only get 1 sneak attack that round. Same goes for emerging from stealth. To get multiple sneak attacks, you need something that makes them flat-footed until the end of your turn. So, Improved Two-Weapon Feint (a long feat chain, though, that doesn't really pay off until 9th level) or Greater Feint in combination with something that lets you feint faster than a move action. Dazzling Display. Or Greater Invisibility, which Invisible Blade gets you. That's why Invisible Blade is so good, because you start getting full rounds of sneak attacks.

The idea behind Ninja going TWF is to try to get as many sneak attacks off in a round as possible. But you still need to be in a position to get a sneak attack. To really take advantage of TWF, you need a flank or Greater Invisibility. My Ninja went the two-weapon feint route, so from 3rd through 8th, I could reliably get 1 sneak attack against most creatures even without a flank. From 9th on, I could get 4 sneak attacks without a flank (off hand primary, main hand iterative, off hand iterative, ki attack)...

So there's at least three viable options to go here:

TWF Ninja
TW feint ninja
or Single weapon slashing grace

I'm typically play a concept I like, even if it's not optimal. But the more I learn of the possibilities it almost seems shameful to make a character that is far weaker than other possibilities.


BadBird wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
As for the Scout archetype, it is true that currently it works for most GMs. However, there have been designer statements in the last couple of years that indicate it maybe doesn't work after all, and there's a fairly significant possibility than an FAQ could hit that makes it clear that Rogue archetypes don't work for a Ninja. That's a whole separate thread.
I'm sure I saw a definitive 'yes' to Scout Ninja referenced more than once lately, but I don't remember where... hmm.

I still need to look up the scout archetype and learn more about it.

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