Work-around for magus+slashing grace+spell combat


Rules Questions


If you have a magus that has the wand wielder arcana and then use weapon wand to put the wand in your weapon, can you then cast a spell from the wand and still get dex to damage with the weapon?

This combo leaves the off hand empty and unoccupied as the primary hand is being used to cast and make the weapon attacks.

Dark Archive

Are you using Spell Combat? Or Spellstrike?

If it's the former, then no, you can't combine Slashing Grace and Spell Combat.

If it's the latter, then you're good.


I don't understand why u need to, spell combat does not stop slashing grace from working.


FAQ wrote:

Slashing Grace: In the 2nd printing errata, what exactly does it mean that “You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied?” Can I use a shield? What about a buckler? Can I use flurry of blows? Brawler’s flurry? Two-weapon fighting? Spell combat? Attack with natural weapons? What if I throw the weapon? What about swordmaster’s flair?

Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand. Flurry of blows, brawler’s flurry, two-weapon fighting, and spell combat all don’t work with Slashing Grace. Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work. Slashing Grace only works with melee attacks, not thrown attacks with a melee weapon. Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”
posted July 2015 | back to top


sorry I was thinking of dervish dance. you must use a scimitar but its what u want anyways.


I am afraid y'all are right. I was thinking that having the off hand free and unoccupied was enough, but it looks like that is not the case.

On the other hand, I was unaware that you could still use spellstrike with slashing grace. I assume it's the same with fencing grace? Well, that changes the way I was thinking about things.

Dark Archive

vhok wrote:
sorry I was thinking of dervish dance. you must use a scimitar but its what u want anyways.

You can't use Dervish Dance with Spell Combat, either, since you can't be "carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand".


what are you "carrying" in your offhand?

Dark Archive

Spell Combat (Ex) wrote:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brevick Axeflail wrote:
Spell Combat (Ex) wrote:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.

A spell being cast is neither a shield nor a weapon.

Dark Archive

In this instance, it most clearly is.

"the off-hand weapon is a spell".


its been said by the devs that was just an explanation of how it works and its not actually two weapon fighting.it continues to explain how it works after giving you this example which you can see if you actually read the full ability and not just the first sentence.

To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free(even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand

you must have 1 hand free. which means you have 1 empty hand. dervish dance works fine

spent 15min trying to find that dev comment because I remember them also talking about the hand still counts as being empty as casting a spell is not holding something but I can't find it. I'm sure someone can link it.

Dark Archive

It's virtually the same restriction as Slashing Grace ("your hand cannot otherwise be occupied").

Dervish Dance is more liberal, since it only restricts you from using a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

But that's exactly what Spell Combat is doing: your off-hand weapon is a spell.

So no Dex-to-damage during Spell Combat.

Spellstrike would be fine, just as with Slashing Grace.


Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace were both errata'd specifically to not function with spell combat.

Dervish Dance thus far has been untouched. Dervish Dance works with spell combat. This has been debated for quite literally years, the result hasn't changed.


Brevick Axeflail wrote:

It's virtually the same restriction as Slashing Grace ("your hand cannot otherwise be occupied").

The FAQ on slashing grace only affect slashing grace and not dervish dance or any other thing.

Dark Archive

I admit I have seen it used for years. I wasn't as outspoken about it back then, because there was a higher level of ambiguity than we have today. People focused on the word "carrying", and indeed, you're not literally "carrying" anything while performing Spell Combat.

And it will likely never receive a specific ruling itself (because it's from a Player's Companion).

But now that we have an FAQ that describes why Slashing Grace doesn't work with Spell Combat, I can't see it working any differently for Dervish Dance.

Slashing Grace:
"You do not gain this benefit ... any time another hand is otherwise occupied."

Dervish Dance:
"You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

Neither of those statements specifically address Spell Combat, and yet one of them is specifically restricted.

I don't see any reason to think differently for the other, which just tips the scales of those former debates more in the opposite direction.


Brevick Axeflail wrote:


But now that we have an FAQ that describes why Slashing Grace doesn't work with Spell Combat, I can't see it working any differently for Dervish Dance.

Because, as the PDT have said, FAQ are only relevant for the specific question at hand.


Dervish Dance wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

For a home game, you would just have to talk it over with your GM.

For PFS, you may want to consider avoiding this entirely-- or at least not making it the focus of your build. A spell is considered a weapon in some important ways (such as flanking), but not in others (such as casting a different spell). As a result, some GMs may interpret this in your favor but others may not.


SodiumTelluride wrote:
Dervish Dance wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

For a home game, you would just have to talk it over with your GM.

For PFS, you may want to consider avoiding this entirely-- or at least not making it the focus of your build. A spell is considered a weapon in some important ways (such as flanking), but not in others (such as casting a different spell). As a result, some GMs may interpret this in your favor but others may not.

Dervish Dance has, and continues to, work in PFS for years.

Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace were both errata'd specifically to prevent spell combat. Dervish Dance retains the original wording that allows spell combat. No FAQ or errata have been issued changing this.

If it becomes an issue at a specific venue, I recommend contacting the local VC to get the issue resolved.

Dark Archive

Nicos wrote:
Brevick Axeflail wrote:

But now that we have an FAQ that describes why Slashing Grace doesn't work with Spell Combat, I can't see it working any differently for Dervish Dance.

Because, as the PDT have said, FAQ are only relevant for the specific question at hand.

This is not true, and cannot be, given the variety of FAQ responses we have.

Example of such a conflict:
There's an FAQ for Magical Lineage, but not Wayang Spellhunter (which functions nearly identical). Most people accept that the FAQ applies to both, making it a general FAQ.

On the other hand, there's an FAQ for the Summoner's SLA, which states that Augment Summoning works with it. Some people claim this is a specific FAQ, and that other feats (such as Superior Summoning) don't work with the Summoner's SLA.

Hopefully the dichotomy here is apparent.

Dark Archive

Snowlilly wrote:
SodiumTelluride wrote:
Dervish Dance wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

For a home game, you would just have to talk it over with your GM.

For PFS, you may want to consider avoiding this entirely-- or at least not making it the focus of your build. A spell is considered a weapon in some important ways (such as flanking), but not in others (such as casting a different spell). As a result, some GMs may interpret this in your favor but others may not.

Dervish Dance has, and continues to, work in PFS for years.

Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace were both errata'd specifically to prevent spell combat. Dervish Dance retains the original wording that allows spell combat. No FAQ or errata have been issued changing this.

If it becomes an issue at a specific venue, I recommend contacting the local VC to get the issue resolved.

And some VOs will rule one way, while others rule the opposite.

I GM almost exclusively for PFS. Given my reasons above, and the restriction of Spell Combat ("the off-hand weapon is a spell"), I cannot in good conscience continue to allow such builds.

I would of course tell such a player before the game begins, when asking about or auditing their characters.

The Concordance

Brevick Axeflail wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
SodiumTelluride wrote:
Dervish Dance wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

For a home game, you would just have to talk it over with your GM.

For PFS, you may want to consider avoiding this entirely-- or at least not making it the focus of your build. A spell is considered a weapon in some important ways (such as flanking), but not in others (such as casting a different spell). As a result, some GMs may interpret this in your favor but others may not.

Dervish Dance has, and continues to, work in PFS for years.

Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace were both errata'd specifically to prevent spell combat. Dervish Dance retains the original wording that allows spell combat. No FAQ or errata have been issued changing this.

If it becomes an issue at a specific venue, I recommend contacting the local VC to get the issue resolved.

And some VOs will rule one way, while others rule the opposite.

I GM almost exclusively for PFS. Given my reasons above, and the restriction of Spell Combat ("the off-hand weapon is a spell"), I cannot in good conscience continue to allow such builds.

I would of course tell such a player before the game begins, when asking about or auditing their characters.

carrying a weapon

Would also disallow a creature that happens to have a claw on that off-hand and doesn't use it??
You can't carry a claw and you can't carry a spell.


Brevick Axeflail wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brevick Axeflail wrote:

But now that we have an FAQ that describes why Slashing Grace doesn't work with Spell Combat, I can't see it working any differently for Dervish Dance.

Because, as the PDT have said, FAQ are only relevant for the specific question at hand.

This is not true, and cannot be, given the variety of FAQ responses we have.

** spoiler omitted **

This is a fair point, but whats more important is that Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace have an errata, and the FAQ in question clarifies what the errata means. (unless there is another one that I do not know about)

The FAQ (which asks the following)

Quote:
In the 2nd printing errata, what exactly does it mean that “You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied?”

itself isn't saying that you can't use spell combat with things like slashing grace, its directly clarifying the meaning of a very specific line in rules text (which, for posterity sake, is bolded above).

Dervish dance doesn't have that text, and as the faq is directly calling out a specific line in the rules text, and not a general case, it doesn't apply. The writers could have easily added that line to dervish dance, but they didn't, and I find it very hard to believe that was accidental considering the popularity of that ability.

Accident or not, dervish dance only says that you cannot be carrying a weapon or a shield to make use of the bonus, which is significantly less restrictive.

For example, if I started out the round carrying a sword in my off hand, and I dropped it using a free action, any attacks made after I dropped it would be subject to dervish dance. The ability isn't something that stays or goes based on how you start the round, it stays or goes based solely on whats in your other hand.

I could even start the round two weapon fighting and throw my second weapon as an offhand attack and every strike I made after would get dervish dance, since I wasn't carrying a sword or a shield in my off hand at that point.

Regardless of whether or not a spell qualifies as a weapon, with the exception of spells that actually put something into your hand, your hand is only occupied when you are casting and releasing the spell. To me then it would seem that when you are attacking with dervish dance your hand isn't occupied because its not casting, and when you're casting with spell combat you aren't hitting with dervish dance so it doesn't matter.

Dark Archive

It's a combination of the new FAQ, the definition of Spell Combat calling out the spell as an off-hand weapon, and Dervish Dance calling out that you can't have a weapon in your off-hand.

This argument existed before the FAQ. The FAQ gives it new weight.


Brevick Axeflail wrote:

It's a combination of the new FAQ, the definition of Spell Combat calling out the spell as an off-hand weapon, and Dervish Dance calling out that you can't have a weapon in your off-hand.

This argument existed before the FAQ. The FAQ gives it new weight.

First, the FAQ doesn't give any new weight because it doesn't apply.

I'm not saying that FAQ's don't ever apply to more than just part of its specific case, (though I'm inclined to believe that their scope is limited) but in this instance the FAQ includes a lot of extra text to explicitly state what part of the rules it is applying to, specifically to the line of text that says "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied?"

Second, You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied is not equal to you cannot be carrying a shield or a weapon. The second is far less restrictive than the first, and honestly isn't really a similar requirement. With dervish dance I can hold literally anything in my other hand as long as its not a shield or a weapon. Technically you can even use Dervish Dance with flurry if you had a war priest with the right deity and the crusader flurry feat. Given those two examples the rules text for slashing grace do not simply encompass dervish dance.

Because its less restrictive, and because the FAQ specifically states that its answer is directed only at the rules line "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied?" it isn't covered under the same umbrella ruling.

You can't use slashing grace with spell combat because the rules call out two weapon fighting as something that occupies your hands enough for it not to work, and spell combat is basically TWF. Dervish dance only requires you to not be holding a weapon/shield in your other hand and doesn't make any reference to two weapon fighting or anything similar. Since you aren't holding a weapon in your offhand when you aren't using it to cast, and since you aren't attacking with your scimitar in your main hand when you're casting in spell combat, you aren't ever breaking the rules of dervish dance when you would be striking with the sword.

This may be because dervish dance doesn't require as much of a PC as slashing grace does (in practice), or it may be simply that dervish dance is a much more restrictive feat that gives you much less than slashing grace.

Reasoning aside, if the writers wanted to rule on the whole and include dervish dance, the writers would have given Dervish Dance the exact same errata text that slashing grace has, or at the very least they would have expanded the FAQ to include language like whats in dervish dance, especially considering the FAQ is online and extra words don't cost them anything there.


vhok wrote:
I don't understand why u need to, spell combat does not stop slashing grace from working.

Yes it does. Spell combat occupies your off hand, which must remain TOTALLY uncommitted for slashing grace to kick in.

You can have spell combat, and spell strike, or slashing grace with spellstrike. Pick one.

Liberty's Edge

If you are willing to take a 4 level dip into the Swashbuckler Whirling Dervish archetype then you can use its special version of Dervish Dance to get Dex to damage with any swashbuckler finessable weapon OTHER than a scimitar WITHOUT needing to have the off-hand free. Thus you could combine with spell combat or two-weapon fighting.

That should work even if the Dervish Dance feat itself is interpreted (or eventually FAQ'd) to match slashing grace.


Brevick Axeflail wrote:


And some VOs will rule one way, while others rule the opposite.

I GM almost exclusively for PFS. Given my reasons above, and the restriction of Spell Combat ("the off-hand weapon is a spell"), I cannot in good conscience continue to allow such builds.

I would of course tell such a player before the game begins, when asking about or auditing their characters.

Name a single VO that ruled that dervish dance doesn't work with spell combat for his area.

This is astounding to me.

Have you really missed all the dervish dance shocking grasp magus builds in the advice section for PFS characters? Have you missed people complaining about how every magus is dervish dance because it's the easiest way to get dex to damage with spell combat? Threads like this with people talking about seeing dervish dance magus everywhere.

And you say it doesn't work because the spell counts as a weapon in the off-hand? That means you also allow all feats and abilities that specify weapons to also affect spells since a spell in the hand counts as a weapon right? That's...actually kinda cool and I think would open up some nice build opportunities...like a ray user or a maybe reaaallly bad touch cleric.

Dark Archive

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I mentioned up thread my past concerns.

Just because a build is repeated ad nauseum does not make it legal.


Brevick Axeflail wrote:

I mentioned up thread my past concerns.

Just because a build is repeated ad nauseum does not make it legal.

Though the rather sizable quantity of PFS GMs/Staffers who run games with the build in them does lend credence to its legality.

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