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I don't understand the basis of the claim that the Arsenal Chaplain only gets one 'iteration' of weapon training. That doesn't appear to be the case;
At 5th level, an arsenal chaplain gains weapon training as per the fighter class feature, but the benefits of this weapon training apply only to the his sacred weapons (weapons with which the warpriest has taken Weapon Focus).
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from his group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
So, the only difference between the two seems to be that the Arsenal Chaplain gains weapon training benefits only with sacred weapons. Meaning that if they have longsword, greatsword, and warhammer as sacred weapons and took the 'heavy blades' group they'd only get weapon training benefits with longswords & greatswords... rather than all weapons in that group. However, there is nothing in the text saying they can't take another weapon group (e.g. hammers) at 9th level and every four thereafter.
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I looked back through the posts and I don't see anyone indicating that Molthuni Arsenal Chaplains only get a "sacred weapons" group. I think you just misinterpreted things. There's three things going on.
1) Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training at 5th level. It works exactly like the fighter Weapon Training, including at higher levels.
2) A MAC only gets the benefit of Weapon Training for weapons in with which he has Weapon Focus.
3) (PFS specific rule) A MAC does not qualify for Advanced Weapon Training.
Because of the way the rule in 3 is worded the MAC cannot swap out his 9th level Weapon Training benefit for an Advanced Weapon Training (which John indicated was intentional) but also cannot take the Advanced Weapon Training feat which John is (hopefully still) considering allowing.
I looked back through the posts and I don't see anyone indicating that Molthuni Arsenal Chaplains only get a "sacred weapons" group. I think you just misinterpreted things. There's three things going on.
1) Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training at 5th level. It works exactly like the fighter Weapon Training, including at higher levels.
2) A MAC only gets the benefit of Weapon Training for weapons in with which he has Weapon Focus.
3) (PFS specific rule) A MAC does not qualify for Advanced Weapon Training.Because of the way the rule in 3 is worded the MAC cannot swap out his 9th level Weapon Training benefit for an Advanced Weapon Training (which John indicated was intentional) but also cannot take the Advanced Weapon Training feat which John is (hopefully still) considering allowing.
Yep that was my take away from the linked post above which i will quote again.
Both of those archetypes qualify. The Molthuni arsenal champion does not simply because it is a false choice; they only get weapon training for weapons for which they have Weapon Focus, so should such a warpriest not take further Weapon Focus feats, they effectively have a "spare" weapon group that's not applying to anything starting at level 9. Using that to purchase an advanced weapon training trick is basically free--or would be.So the Molthune Arsenal Chaplain warpriest can't take the Advances Weapon Training feats.
What about the Myrmidarch magus and the Sohei monk? Both of those archetypes get Weapon Training as a class feature.
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If that is the case it's good to know, but makes things more confusing why people would be confused by it and how it interacts with AWT options.
Also I feel it's as much a false choice as a fighter. WP get sacred weapons with deity weapon and weapon focus weapons, but lets say that's the same thing.
WT for a fighter is best used for making your backup bow slightly better. Before AWT people said take a fighter archetype that trade the increases away since they weren't useful. Now it's keep them to trade for AWT. When you have a +3 or +4 adamantine greataxe with weapon focus' and specialization and a high str you're better having a potion of fly than a bow most times. Your bow is a lot lower because dex is low and str high and not much magic or feat support. And doing it for a different melee group is probably worse, DPR I believe is better with your good magic main weapon than with some backup masterwork weapon.
And since WP gets a free feat that same level that they could use to take WF if they wanted, one is just as much a "false choice" as the other.
If that is the case it's good to know, but makes things more confusing why people would be confused by it and how it interacts with AWT options.
Probably because they are thinking it works the other way.
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I looked back through the posts and I don't see anyone indicating that Molthuni Arsenal Chaplains only get a "sacred weapons" group. I think you just misinterpreted things. There's three things going on.
1) Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training at 5th level. It works exactly like the fighter Weapon Training, including at higher levels.
2) A MAC only gets the benefit of Weapon Training for weapons in with which he has Weapon Focus.
3) (PFS specific rule) A MAC does not qualify for Advanced Weapon Training.Because of the way the rule in 3 is worded the MAC cannot swap out his 9th level Weapon Training benefit for an Advanced Weapon Training (which John indicated was intentional) but also cannot take the Advanced Weapon Training feat which John is (hopefully still) considering allowing.
This is pretty much exactly how I interpreted it. As written, to me, there isn't anything that implies there are later options to swap out (for free AWT options). I just want to be able to take the feat, which is consequently not allowed for PFS, but I don't see any reason for it to be and would like to be able to.
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This is pretty much exactly how I interpreted it. As written, to me, there isn't anything that implies there are later options to swap out (for free AWT options). I just want to be able to take the feat, which is consequently not allowed for PFS, but I don't see any reason for it to be and would like to be able to.
Being able to take the feat, but not swap out the ability went on john comptons radar at some point. Probably look for it in the next campaign clarifications.
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This is pretty much exactly how I interpreted it. As written, to me, there isn't anything that implies there are later options to swap out (for free AWT options). I just want to be able to take the feat, which is consequently not allowed for PFS, but I don't see any reason for it to be and would like to be able to.I looked back through the posts and I don't see anyone indicating that Molthuni Arsenal Chaplains only get a "sacred weapons" group. I think you just misinterpreted things. There's three things going on.
1) Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training at 5th level. It works exactly like the fighter Weapon Training, including at higher levels.
2) A MAC only gets the benefit of Weapon Training for weapons in with which he has Weapon Focus.
3) (PFS specific rule) A MAC does not qualify for Advanced Weapon Training.Because of the way the rule in 3 is worded the MAC cannot swap out his 9th level Weapon Training benefit for an Advanced Weapon Training (which John indicated was intentional) but also cannot take the Advanced Weapon Training feat which John is (hopefully still) considering allowing.
So are you saying they get 1 group at lv5 which is "sacred weapons group" and they never get new groups?
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So are you saying they get 1 group at lv5 which is "sacred weapons group" and they never get new groups?This is pretty much exactly how I interpreted it. As written, to me, there isn't anything that implies there are later options to swap out (for free AWT options). I just want to be able to take the feat, which is consequently not allowed for PFS, but I don't see any reason for it to be and would like to be able to.I looked back through the posts and I don't see anyone indicating that Molthuni Arsenal Chaplains only get a "sacred weapons" group. I think you just misinterpreted things. There's three things going on.
1) Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training at 5th level. It works exactly like the fighter Weapon Training, including at higher levels.
2) A MAC only gets the benefit of Weapon Training for weapons in with which he has Weapon Focus.
3) (PFS specific rule) A MAC does not qualify for Advanced Weapon Training.Because of the way the rule in 3 is worded the MAC cannot swap out his 9th level Weapon Training benefit for an Advanced Weapon Training (which John indicated was intentional) but also cannot take the Advanced Weapon Training feat which John is (hopefully still) considering allowing.
No.
I think you're the only one reading it that way. They get a group at 5th level and every 4 levels after that. However the bonuses only apply to weapons that count for the Sacred Weapon class feature (normally ones that they have Weapon Focus with.)
Both things must be true for a MAC to get the benefits of Weapon Training with a weapon. The weapon counts as a sacred weapon AND he has selected the fighter weapon group in which that weapon appears with his Weapon Training class feature.
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So are you saying they get 1 group at lv5 which is "sacred weapons group" and they never get new groups?This is pretty much exactly how I interpreted it. As written, to me, there isn't anything that implies there are later options to swap out (for free AWT options). I just want to be able to take the feat, which is consequently not allowed for PFS, but I don't see any reason for it to be and would like to be able to.I looked back through the posts and I don't see anyone indicating that Molthuni Arsenal Chaplains only get a "sacred weapons" group. I think you just misinterpreted things. There's three things going on.
1) Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training at 5th level. It works exactly like the fighter Weapon Training, including at higher levels.
2) A MAC only gets the benefit of Weapon Training for weapons in with which he has Weapon Focus.
3) (PFS specific rule) A MAC does not qualify for Advanced Weapon Training.Because of the way the rule in 3 is worded the MAC cannot swap out his 9th level Weapon Training benefit for an Advanced Weapon Training (which John indicated was intentional) but also cannot take the Advanced Weapon Training feat which John is (hopefully still) considering allowing.
No.
I think you're the only one reading it that way. They get a group at 5th level and every 4 levels after that. However the bonuses only apply to weapons that count for the Sacred Weapon class feature (normally ones that they have Weapon Focus with.)
Both things must be true for a MAC to get the benefits of Weapon Training with a weapon. The weapon counts as a sacred weapon AND he has selected the fighter weapon group in which that weapon appears with his Weapon Training class feature.
didn't know you were claudekennilol/ know what he thinks.
I am a believer in the getting groups each stage and it working like TWF fighter. But there's been A LOT of people I've seen talking in various threads saying that they only have the sacred weapon group and don't get new groups to trade out. How is the sacred weapon group supposed to work with versatile training? Even here, with claudekennilol saying that the WP doesn't have later options to switch out and that nothing is even implying that there are later choices or really any choices that need to be made with this ability. To me, I don't see how "not gaining later options to swap out" can possibly mean "yes you pick groups each time and only sacred weapons in that group work, but of course this still means that there aren't any later choices to be made."|
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Ok, so looking further, the actual argument put forward by John Compton here was that if a MAC only took a single sacred weapon then allowing them to gain AWT options at 9th, 13th, and 17th would be giving them those benefits "free". Ergo, for PFS the MAC cannot trade out weapon training groups for AWT options.
I'd argue that fighters and every other class archetype which gets weapon training can, and usually do, also focus on a single weapon type and thus get these 'free' AWT options... and/or that the options are NOT entirely free because you have to give up potential efficiency with multiple weapons to get them... but that's not really relevant.
Rather, there seems to be no basis for the idea that MAT only gets one weapon group. Even in PFS they CAN select new fighter weapon groups every four levels after 5th... there is just a special limitation that they can't choose NOT to do so in exchange for an AWT option.
Ok, so looking further, the actual argument put forward by John Compton here was that if a MAC only took a single sacred weapon then allowing them to gain AWT options at 9th, 13th, and 17th would be giving them those benefits "free". Ergo, for PFS the MAC cannot trade out weapon training groups for AWT options.
I'd argue that fighters and every other class archetype which gets weapon training can, and usually do, also focus on a single weapon type and thus get these 'free' AWT options... and/or that the options are NOT entirely free because you have to give up potential efficiency with multiple weapons to get them... but that's not really relevant.
Exactly I really can't see many fighters who know about and have acess to the AWTs bothering to pick up more than 2 weapon groups now that there is something to do with it.
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Exactly I really can't see many fighters who know about and have acess to the AWTs bothering to pick up more than 2 weapon groups now that there is something to do with it.Ok, so looking further, the actual argument put forward by John Compton here was that if a MAC only took a single sacred weapon then allowing them to gain AWT options at 9th, 13th, and 17th would be giving them those benefits "free". Ergo, for PFS the MAC cannot trade out weapon training groups for AWT options.
I'd argue that fighters and every other class archetype which gets weapon training can, and usually do, also focus on a single weapon type and thus get these 'free' AWT options... and/or that the options are NOT entirely free because you have to give up potential efficiency with multiple weapons to get them... but that's not really relevant.
The difference - and the reason John called it a "false choice" - is that if a fighter focuses on a greatsword and picks up Weapon Training: Heavy Blades at 5th level, he can choose Weapon Training: Bows at 9th level and get some benefit from it. It may be a "better" choice (from an optimization perspective) to take AWT at 9th, but at least WT: bows would do something.
If a Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain of Gorum picks up WT: heavy blades at 5th, then picking up WT: bows at 9th does nothing unless he spends an additional feat on Weapon Focus with a type of bow.So while a fighter gives up a (minor) benefit to get AWT with the 9th level class feature, a MAC would not have to give up anything.
Edit: I agree with you, by the way. I suspect 95%+ of fighters who have access to AWT will take it instead of another weapon group. But they are giving up something.
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And if the fighter doesn't carry a bow then it's doing nothing for him either.
There are many classes where options don't do Anything unless you've met some outside goal. Many require you to meet pre reqs of bonus feats. So it's like those. If I get spells master for free if I meet the requirements, then I need to pick up those requirements beforehand. Otherwise it is a "false gift".
I'd check if the author/devs over it knew about awt and was expecting the wp to trade out for them.
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I know the AR hasn't been updated in months, but any more info about this would be greatly appreciated.
It's always difficult to know if this is something still being considered and thus no news. Or they have decided and they don't want to make it legal and thus just don't want to bother telling us it's decided.
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It's already a very powerful archetype without giving it access to AWT. With AWT even if only through a feat, it's arguably more powerful than the base warpriest, which makes it questionable for organized play.
As much as I would like to have AWT on an Arsenal Chaplain in PFS, I'm okay with it not being an option.
I'm not sure if that's the case, especially when you consider that we still don't have a definitve ruling on how the Arsenal Chaplin weapon training works, (is it one special group that works for every sacred weapon, or do you still have to take a different group if you have 2 weapons that don't share one?). You give up one blessing and have to choose war for the other one with some nifty bonuses (only one of which comes online during your normal PFS career. Sacred weapon damage is actually a loss compared to a second war priest. And we then swap channel for weapon training, so better to-hit and damage no channel.
So not sure if the 2 AWT choices you could get at levels 6 and 12 are going to make that big of a swing between the power levels of the two.
