familiar with familiars?


Advice


Hi, hey Hello! I'm having difficulty choosing a familiar mostly based on how good it will be in game. I'm starting as a level 1 Shaman with the Heavens Spirit and the flavor of my Spirit animal drives me to choose a familiar based on a constellation. If I choose a familiar with a flight sp. it increases by 10ft. but any other familiar only gain a fly sp. of 5ft.

In this manner, would I be able to use both the familiar's land and flight speed as a move action or would they both be separate move actions? I haven't encountered this before. Similarly if anyone would be able to note what skills a familiar cannot perform (I imagine familiars using Intimidate) and how often they have experienced a familiar using skills.
The final decision is extremely difficult and would appreciate feedback. I'm hoping to use my familiar for NPC interactions and delivering touch spells (Valet Archetype)

Cancer and Delphinus (Crab and Dolphin) are not really appealing from lack of a water-based campaign.

Vulpecula (Fox): +2 Reflex is appreciated, dont get the benefit of +10 flight but +5 is nothing to turn your nose up at. No penalties to Skills. Decent looking overall.

Capricornus (Goat): +3 Survival and its skills based on jumping and finding food seem very situational.

Lepus (Hare): They seem to be an option but the only information i could find is a +4 Initiative.

Aquila (Hawk/Eagle): The bonus to perception confuses me because I've never encountered "Light Dependent" or "Opposed" Perception Checks. Total 70ft. flight. Starting +14 Perception and +11 Fly. As for the need of Weapon Proficiency? I have no idea.

Lacerta (Lizard): +3 bonus to Climb seems unhelpful. Slow, useful if can crawl 20ft to a wall, crawl 20ft on the wall, and fly 5ft to deliver touch, but honestly don't see that happening.

Ursa Minor (Red Panda): Adorable and a less situation +3 to Acro. Still, ultimately, a little slow.

Pavo (Peacock): Flavorful, but clumsy flight?? And having to perch before ending your turn is worrisome. +3 Intimidate seems rarely used.

Corvus (Raven): Skill focus Perception and 50ft fly. Obvious draw is the ability to speak but GM dependent on what is actually possible. Could the animal hold conversations? I don't think so. Activate a magic ring it is entrusted to hold? I thinks maybe.

Scorpio (Greensting, Scorpion): +4 Initiative is great. Fear of it getting stepped on though. Iv'e had the idea of possibly letting vermin hide in my mouth and Intimidate check when I open my mouth and reveal a scorpion but possibility of swallowing if in battle soooo... Poison seems wasted if I'm not going to make it a Mauler but nice nonetheless. Surprising 30ft sp. and +15 stealth.

Hydrus (Sea Krait): +2 Fortitude is handy. No water dependency because it's based off an aquatic snake that breathes air. 20 base Land, Climb, and Swim.

Tucana (Toucan): Raven stats. At the loss of speech? +3 Diplomacy. Kind of mediocre.

Lyra (Lyre/Lyrebird): An attempt of a possible re-skin, a possible amalgamation of Peacock and Raven.

Those are all of the Modern Constellations. There are more based off of the Former Constellations including: Manis (Pangolin/Armadillo), Felis (Cat), Gallus (Rooster/Chicken), Limax (Slug/Leopard Slug), Noctua (Owl), Aranea (Spider/ Scarlet Spider), Sciurus Volans (Flying Squirrel), Turdus (Thrush), Bufo (Toad), Testudo (Tortoise/ Turtle)

Silver Crusade

Any familiar gets to use its master's skill ranks in place of its own, bear that in mind.

If you want your familiar to deliver touch spells flight is nice, but also consider that Small size means that the familiar won't need to enter the enemy's space and provoke an attack of opportunity before it attempts to touch.

A valet familiar shares your teamwork feats, this gives lots of possibilities.


So a familiar could potentially use any skills by using their Master's skill ranks, the Familiars modifiers, and class skills if any (Valet grants Craft, Perform, and Profession.) Ex. the Armadillo (I would re-skin it as a Pangolin) is built for making Swim, Survival (Tracking), and Perception. However, it can be used to Aid Another using a +1 Wisdom Modifier (Wis 12) and +1 Skill Rank (From its master) on a Heal check. (via Valet) Random Example.

Deliver touch spells in combat is very scary. An idea would probably be to deliver attacking touch spells via 'Spectral Hand' and leave the familiar to aid party members by delivering harmless touch spells.

Silver Crusade

No familiar is "built" to use only certain skills. All familiar have, in fact, the same class skills (they are written on the page about familiars, just check on d20pfsrd), but some already has some points spent. However, for each skill, they can use their (few) points, or YOUR ranks. In both cases, they use THEIR bonus for class skills and THEIR stat modifiers. There is no limit on what skills they can use (exception made for common sense).

For example, I use my Mauler familiar to intimidate enemies before I cast a spell: if the check overtakes the DC, they get a -2 penalty on their ST! Make good use of your Valet familiar taking crafting feats such as Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms and Armors.


Poor choice of words on my part. They are not indeed built for any such skill but yes as you stated had already points awarded. Familiars are immensely different and a somewhat confusing class feature. Choosing one is no easy feat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Walking and then flying would be two move actions.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Walking and then flying would be two move actions.

Standard to move?

Silver Crusade

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Walking and then flying would be two move actions.

I disagree. You can use a move action to move up to your speed. If you have more than one movement mode, you can still move up to your speed with one action even if you change movement modes during that action. Example: A giant snake has speed 20, climb speed 20, and swim speed 20. It wants to reach a tasty halfling that has climbed up a tree to hide from it. The tree is 30 feet away. The snake does not spend one move action to slither 20 feet towards the tree, then another move/standard action to slither the remaining 10 feet where it waits, out of actions. It spends one move action to slither 20 feet towards the tree, and its second move/standard action uses 10 feet of movement to get to the base of the tree, and 10 feet climbing up to reach the juicy, plump halfling. It only used half of its speed slithering on the ground, it has half of its move left, its climb speed is also 20' so it can still climb 10'.

A similar example, not requiring alternative move modes: my large ape animal companion needs to climb a building. He uses more than one but less than two moves to reach the base of the building; his remaining speed (or movement allowance if you like) is then used in a climb attempt: he has to make a skill check because he has no climb speed, but if successful he moves 1/4 of his remaining speed/move allowance climbing up the building as per the climb skill rules.

This is how I run movement, and its how the GMs I've played under do it too.

Silver Crusade

Your argument makes sense only when the different speeds are equal, which is a reeeeally specific case. Generally speaking, speeds are not the same. How do you apply it to a bird having land speed 10ft and flight speed 30ft? It needs to move 20ft, however the first 5ft are through a small opening and it can't fly. It walks for 5ft. Now it starts flying, but how much space can it cover? 5ft, up to the maximum of its land speed? 25ft, up to the maximum of its flight speed? There is no ABSOLUTE reference maximum speed, it doesn't work this way.

In a more complex system, you could just use a fractional approach: you can use a percentage of each of your movement modes UP TO 100%. In other words, the bird above could have used 5ft of its land speed, so 50% of one speed type, and now could use 15ft of its flight speed, so another 50% of the other speed type, reaching the total of 100%. However, Pathfinder doesn't use the fractional approach, so each type of movement uses its own move action, you can't mix them because otherwise you wouldn't be able to discriminate every scenario.

The climb thing follows the rules of Climb checks, so it doesn't apply in this case.

Silver Crusade

Use the fractional approach. It's not difficult maths, especially considering how much maths goes on in a typical combat anyway. I've never found that it slows a game down.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Generally speaking you don't want your familiar running around during combat because that puts it in danger (and its hit points and AC aren't great). For scouting and social encounters that's a different matter, of course.

This means that if your concern is "how good it will be in game", you should not look at what the familiar does, but at what it gives you: +4 initiative is great, +1 AC or +2 to a saving throw is good, +3 to a skill is lacklustre.

Also, check out familiar archetypes, in particular Protector (if you want more AC), Sage (if you want more knowledge skills; and it stacks with Figment), or Emissary (if you want Guidance to everything).

Silver Crusade

He has already chosen the Valet Familiar.

Familiars can run around the battlefield without any problem. They can aid teammates and deliver touch spells. They are not fragile, they have a scaling natural AC, a nice size bonus to AC, usually decent Dex and can wear armors. They have half you hps, so can take half the damage that you would be able to bear. Therefore, unless you are so weak to be one-shot by average attacks, your familiar would be able to withstand a hit from time to time. Plus, enemies attacking familiars are just wasting their actions. Why should I waste my action on a rat that doesn't do anything to threaten me, when I'm surrounded by a bunch of killing machines? And before you name AoE effects, familiars have IMPROVED EVASION, so they are almost immune to area effects.

The glass-familiar concept is just an old idea that has no foundation at all. I use my familiars CONSTANTLY in game. My last pg was a gnome Oracle using a Mauler arctic hare familiar as a mount, in order to move 50ft per round and still be able to cast metamagic-ed (full- round) spells. It used to wear a properly sized armor and a saddle, and used to spend its standard actions intimidating enemies in order to lower their ST, or being in Total Defense, gaining a +4 dodge bonus to AC. It has been hit a few times, but it isn't made of butter, so it just managed to resist and continued doing its job. And before you say that it was because my GM was being too kind, I say: why an enemy facing a flamethrower blaster gnome on a big fluffy rabbit should have chosen to hit the latter instead of the former?

Include your familiar in your game, don't use it only as a skill or initiative bonus!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Gray Warden wrote:


Familiars can run around the battlefield without any problem.

That depends. Your GM appears to be ruling heavily in your favor to make this possible, but that won't be the case for all GMs.

Most familiars have an AC around 12-13, including size and dex. That is very low. Adding one point per two levels means it's still low. For a mauler, it's even lower as they reduce their dex and lose their size bonus.

Familiars wearing armor is commonly (although not universally) disallowed. Even if they can, they get only half the AC benefit if tiny, and have to deal with armor check penalty.

Effectively, this means that a familiar will easily have the lowest HP (other than summons) and by far the lowest AC (other than raging barbarians) of the PC's side. Why would you target a mount instead of a rider? Because it is an easier kill. Enemies that are smart (or just cruel) have every reason to take it out.

Quote:
Plus, enemies attacking familiars are just wasting their actions.

Yes, here we go. The best defense (and pretty much the only real defense) that familiars get is "GMs won't target familiars". But if they do? Familiar goes splat.

Silver Crusade

Yeah sure.

Familiars have, on average, 14 Dex, so +2 mod.
They are, on average, Tiny, so +2 size bonus.
They start with a +1 Natural Armor bonus.
They CAN wear armors without any problem. If you disallow it, you are going against the rules. A Tiny leather armor offers another +1, and CAN be enhanced. Oh, and it doesn't have any penalty, which anyway applies only to hit and some checks, so even if it had one, it wouldn't have mattered.

So, as you can see, your "Most familiars have an AC around 12-13" is flat-out wrong, since with 10 gp they can start with at least 16, which is the same AC of an average 2H-weapon Fighter. You can still add a +4 from total defense when they are not spending a standard action, or a +2 from any kind of soft cover. Maulers lose some size and dex bonus, but get more armor bonus, so no problem at all.

Regarding smart enemies, why should a "smart" enemy target the mount, if the caster on top of it will definitely blast him the following round? It doesn't sound that smart. But still, even if the enemy hit the familiar, it wouldn't instantly die, because the caster itself wouldn't die in TWO hits.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
supervillan wrote:
Use the fractional approach. It's not difficult maths, especially considering how much maths goes on in a typical combat anyway. I've never found that it slows a game down.

Yes, that is a good house rule, but it is a house rule.


RandomNigel wrote:
Corvus (Raven): Skill focus Perception and 50ft fly. Obvious draw is the ability to speak but GM dependent on what is actually possible. Could the animal hold conversations? I don't think so.

I do. It knows a language and has a 6 point Intelligence - I've met adventurers with less. Though yes, everything is ultimately GM-dependent.

Something you have not taken into consideration it seems, is how common these creatures might be and how J. Random Commoner would react to them. Scorpions are dangerous. A peacock might set you apart as a poser. A hare is just food, a raven a bad omen... et cetera. If your campaign has some focus on social roleplaying, that might matter a lot.

Silver Crusade

Just to give you bread for your thoughts (I love familiars)...

Another pg of mine was a 20 Int Half-Elf Wizard. At first level, I took Skill Focus [Linguistics] and Oratory, in order to use Linguistics on the social applications of Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate. He had a parrot familiar: it can talk and gives a +3 bonus on Linguistics. The Wizard used to include the parrot in his speeches, when the parrot used to repeat key words (and not just random ones) of his master's speech, in order to increase his ability of influencing people. In other words, the parrot was using the Aid Another action (rolling Linguistics vs DC 10) in order to give a +2 bonus on the check. Including this bonus, at 1st level, such Wizard had a STATIC bonus on Linguistics, and thus on checks made to influence people, of:

+ 1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 5 (Int) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 3 (parrot) + 2 (Aid Another) = + 17

To summarize: enjoy your familiars :)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Gray Warden wrote:

Familiars have, on average, 14 Dex, so +2 mod.

They are, on average, Tiny, so +2 size bonus.
They start with a +1 Natural Armor bonus.

Aaaand you're overlooking that if you go mauler to ride it (like you proposed) it loses the size bonus and takes -4 to dex. Whoops, now it has AC 11. Good luck with that.

Here's the thing, all this talk about AC is beside the point since you've already stated your GM doesn't attack familiars. Well, that's great for you. Doesn't mean that other GMs will never attack familiars either.

Quote:
They CAN wear armors without any problem.

Ah yes, YOUR GM allows it therefore EVERY GM must allow it. Nope, not gonna fly.

Quote:
16, which is the same AC of an average 2H-weapon Fighter

Wait, since when is 16 AC considered good for a frontliner?

Silver Crusade

What are you talking about?

Maulers lose -2 Dex, STOP. An arctic hare has 16 Dex. A Mauler, middle-sized, 3rd level arctic hare familiar has 14 Dex and +2 natural armor. MY arctic hare has also a mwk, properly sized chain shirt, that when in medium size offers a FULL +4 AC bonus, for a -1 penalty on hit and some skills. OUCH!!1!. Total = 2 + 2 + 4 = 18 AC.

So, if MY GM allows LEGAL rules, I'm wrong assuming that EVERY GM allows the same LEGAL rules? Silly me, I thought that rules were done for anyone, now I discover that it's perfectly normal to neglect them at one's whim.

And since when have I said that familiars SHOULD BE FRONTLINERS? 16 AC is more than enough for a damn rat running around the battlefield.

Just read what other write before replying.

Grand Lodge

Gray Warden: Check out Darkleaf Lamellar Armor instead to remove that annoying armor check penalty.


Honestly, the familiar is a very confusing class feature that lies a lot in its stats. very small tidbits of information sprinkled throughout classes and bestiaries its hard to pick a valuable familiar let alone create one properly. My first Witch chose a Rat familiar as I own two rats in real life. While it was nice, I overlooked possibly some more interesting or versatile options.

Silver Crusade

Blake's Tiger wrote:
supervillan wrote:
Use the fractional approach. It's not difficult maths, especially considering how much maths goes on in a typical combat anyway. I've never found that it slows a game down.
Yes, that is a good house rule, but it is a house rule.

I don't see how this could be viewed as a house rule. I've played with very experienced PFS GMs who rule this way.

The rules define move actions this way:

pathfinder prd wrote:

Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

So "a move action allows you to move up to your speed". I can find no language specifying that you have to stop and use a second action if you change movement modes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

1. Fractional movement isn't spelled out in the rules, therefore it is a house rule (it has been debated and houseruled for at least 4 years).

2. "Move up to your speed." Speed is a discrete value defined by a movement type. The default is land movement, some a medium sized humanoid is 30. A bird has two, 10 and Fly 40, for example. Which speed can I move up to? The mode I choose. I can move up to my Fly speed with a move action. The fact that I don't use it all doesn't change the action type. Going back to the humanoid: I move 10' and stop; I only used 1/3rd of my Speed, but I don't get an extra swift or any other benefit from the extra time; so using a movement mode to move any fraction uses up the whole move action.

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