The "Unwritten Off-hand Rule" and using a shield


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as a favorite.

We are having a bit of a debate currently and are seeking the general consensus.

The Paizo FAQ clearly states that a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand still gets the +50% damage benefit while being wielded in one hand. We have agreed on that point. We are now arguing about what can and can't be done with the extra hand. The currently opposing viewpoints are that you can wield a shield (full shield, not just a buckler) in that free hand and keep the damage bonus. The other point is that you cannot use anything in the offhand that would provide a mechanical bonus and maintain the bonus damage.

The example in this case is a Medium character using a small Falchion in one hand and a shield in the other, taking the penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon.

Thoughts?

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

You're misunderstanding that FAQ, it only applies to the lance. If you are using a two-handed weapon in one hand from a feat or class ability, this FAQ clearly states you don't.

In your example, using a small weapon makes the weapon a one handed weapon for you, so if it is wielding in one hand it does not get the 2hand power attack or Str bonus.


for a small falchion you would still get +50% as its not a feat or ability allowing you to 1h it. you can do whatever u want with the other hand, shield, potions, cast spells. whatever you are normally allowed to do with a single hand


2 people marked this as a favorite.

For a medium weilder a small two, handed weapon is a one handed weapon, not a two handed weapon wielded in one hand.

And honestly, this is the kind of nonsense that gives rules discussion a bad taste for so many.


I'm curious what other situations allow you to use a 2h weapon with 1h other than lance? it says "such as a lance while mounted" which means its 1 such situation. I can't think of any others off the top of my head that aren't a feat or ability of a class.

Sczarni

Those two FAQs could really use a rewrite. This confusion comes up often.

standaloneghost wrote:

Medium character using a small Falchion in one hand and a shield in the other, taking the penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon.

Thoughts?

It'd just be +Str to damage, not +1.5.

The usual question that these unwritten rules spawn is "Two-handed weapon + Third hand", such as a Vestigial Arm Alchemist wielding a Greatsword and a Heavy Shield.

In that case, a former Developer admitted that it was permissable, but that he wouldn't allow it in his home games.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think you're ok. Pathfinder tends to view using a shield as a much more passive thing than it is.

SKR saying the shield is ok, but unexpected

Sometimes i wonder if the devs have ever SEEN their player base... if you put them in a room with a poodle some sulfer charcoal and rotten oak logs half of them are going to try to make the poodle bomb out of it

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just remember, the weapon is wielded in a certain way. It is how it is wielded that determines the damage multiplier, not the designation of the weapon itself.

So, feats and such that give the character the ability to wield a Two Handed weapon in one hand will use that weapon with the one hand, getting 1.0 times str mod damage.

The Lance has different rules while in Mounted Combat, using it One Handed as the character braces it on his shoulder. (The other hand assumingly holding the reins)

The designation of the weapon does not change for weapons, it is how the character wields the weapon that matters. When a character uses a weapon of an inappropriate size, the designation changes for that character according to the difference between the character size and the size character the weapon was made for. It still keeps it's original designation for the size character the weapon was made for, the adjustment is to determine how the character can use the weapon despite the size difference between the two.

When using a One Handed weapon with Two Hands, the character gets 1.5x str mod bonus, when using a Two Handed Weapon with One Hand (other than the Lance while mounted), Through a feat or an ability allowing it, the character gets 1.0x str mod damage.


thaX wrote:
The Lance has different rules while in Mounted Combat, using it One Handed as the character braces it on his shoulder. (The other hand assumingly holding the reins)

Your assumption is invalid. Traditionally, the other hand would be holding a shield and the horse would be guided using the legs. Pathfinder makes no such requirement and you can do whatever you want with the other arm - cast spells (hmmm... mounted magus....), wield another lance, whatever.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Guiding with the knees, though, would be at a higher DC ride check, hence the assumption. Nothing is stopping the use of a Shield or something else as the Lance is wielded one handed.

Liberty's Edge

Guiding an animal with it's reins doesn't require a check at all, and guide with your knees is a DC 5 check. I've never seen a mounted character who couldn't automatically make that check after level 1, or really their first payday.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Riding bareback gives a -5 to the check.

It is negligible, but worth mentioning, and it is easier for those that have Animal Affinity. A military saddle gives an addition +2 to the check.

I would add that one can not auto fail checks, so a nat 1 on a ride check does not automatically fail.


The FAQs make a clear distinction between "wielded in one hand" and "wielded one-handed". There's also the issue of conflation between "hand" referring both to your attack economy concerning TWF as well as the grasping appendage. So first, we need to understand the terms in use.

For the sake of clarity, I'll use "hand" to refer to a grasping appendage and "attack economy" to refer to the matter of how many attacks you get.

So, for starters, a two-handed weapon requires two things to wield; two hands and your full attack economy (that is, it "eats" your off-hand attack economy). A one-handed weapon requires one hand and one pool of attack economy (either main-hand or off-hand), but you can use both pools and both hands to wield it and get additional Strength and Power Attack bonus; but it still isn't a two-handed weapon so you can't use things like Pushing Assault. Now, wielding a Lance while mounted, as clarified by the FAQ, only changes the number of hands required to wield the weapon; it has no impact on the attack economy or anything else. So, wielding a Lance while mounted, you can use your other hand to cast a spell, guide your mount by the reins, handle a shield, catch arrows, etc. The Lance still counts as a 2-h weapon so you still get 1.5x Str and Power Attack bonus and could still use things like Pushing Assault. However, you still must commit your full attack economy so you couldn't TWF, nor could you use Spell Combat as that requires use of a light or one-handed weapon.

By contrast, any time you see, "wield one-handed", "wield as a one-handed weapon", or anything analogous, you are actually changing the effective classification of the weapon. Instead of a two-handed weapon, you're treating it as if it were a one-handed weapon for all purposes (except physical qualities as an item). That means you lock yourself out of two-handed rules elements like extra Strength and Power Attack bonus and things like Pushing Assault, but the weapon is treated both as taking up one pool of attack economy as well as only occupying one hand and you could, for instance, use it with Spell Combat.

Hence, for the medium character wielding a small Falchion, the size difference makes them treat it as if it were a one-handed weapon; that means you wield it in one hand with one pool of attack economy, you get 1x Str and 1x Power Attack (or half that if used in the off-hand), you can use it and defend with a shield simultaneously, and you cannot use it for rules elements that require a 2-h weapon (like Pushing Assault).

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / The "Unwritten Off-hand Rule" and using a shield All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.