BigNorseWolf |
She does not. From polymorph(transmutation): Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.
It's a bonus, not a replacement.
You do
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
That tough leathery hide on a green hag comes from their anatomy. You change the anatomy you lose that.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
quibblemuch |
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Prove Natural Armor is an ability then, like Web or Fast Healing. If the Natural Armor gets replaced by whatever the spell or ability says, and it's listed as a bonus and not a replacement, then the Physical Ability Scores should be treated the same way, yes?
Did you just read "you can't quote a rule proving your side Azten nor can we quote a rule proving our side" and respond "Prove your side"?
Also, from the PRD: "Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC" (emphasis mine).
Forseti |
Natural armor defaults to being a "Natural Ability" because it has no other designation. There's no specific mention of losing those, as opposed to extraordinary and supernatural abilities.
(Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.)
Azten |
Azten wrote:Prove Natural Armor is an ability then, like Web or Fast Healing. If the Natural Armor gets replaced by whatever the spell or ability says, and it's listed as a bonus and not a replacement, then the Physical Ability Scores should be treated the same way, yes?Did you just read "you can't quote a rule proving your side Azten nor can we quote a rule proving our side" and respond "Prove your side"?
Also, from the PRD: "Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC" (emphasis mine).
No, because I quoted the Polymorph rules earlier that support my claim.
quibblemuch |
quibblemuch wrote:No, because I quoted the Polymorph rules earlier that support my claim.Azten wrote:Prove Natural Armor is an ability then, like Web or Fast Healing. If the Natural Armor gets replaced by whatever the spell or ability says, and it's listed as a bonus and not a replacement, then the Physical Ability Scores should be treated the same way, yes?Did you just read "you can't quote a rule proving your side Azten nor can we quote a rule proving our side" and respond "Prove your side"?
Also, from the PRD: "Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC" (emphasis mine).
While ignoring: "While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed."
Forseti |
Only extraordinary and supernatural abilities are eligible for adjudication.
I find it mildly amusing that people don't blink an eye at very strong people polymorphing into tiny house cats that end up with strenght scores of 18+ but find they need to mangle the rules to exclude excessive rubberiness of skin.
BigNorseWolf |
DM Fiat is not a good basis for rule discussion. The DM can easily say that Wizard's cast divine spells, but that doesn't mean it's in the core rules.
your body changes into the new thing. Stuff that was based on your old body doesn't work anymore. Stuff thats based on your own body should be obvious, when i doubt ask the dm.
Thats the rules. Its pretty obvious that the hags have tough green skin and fluffy bunnies do not. If your hag turns into a fluffy bunny they lose the tough green skin. It's ridiculous to decry an iota of common sense, especially when the rule IS [insert common sense here]
Sithis of Fangwood |
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Huh. I was unaware this was up for debate.
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.
It's a bonus, not a replacement.
Indeed. But let's take a closer look at what's happening. I'll use myself, a Nagaji Druid, as an example:
Armored Scales: Nagaji have a +1 natural armor bonus from their scaly flesh.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
Each of these grant a "+X natural armor bonus".
Neither the Polymorph effect nor the Racial Trait is granting a bonus "to" your existing natural armor. They are each granting their own similarly typed bonus.
And we know that most bonuses of the same type ("natural armor bonus", in this case) do not stack.
Ergo, you go with the higher of the two.
Sithis of Fangwood |
You get a +2 natural armor bonus.
You HAD a +8 natural armor bonus.Net loss of 6 natural armor bonus.
Oh. Hmm. Good catch. I guess that invalidates my claim (EDIT: because rereading my post, it makes it seem I was arguing that the Hag's greater bonus would be used in place of the spell's bonus; I was not).
Carry on.
Forseti |
Beast Shape I wrote:Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.Each of these grant a "+X natural armor bonus".
So what it boils down to is this being yet another case of conflicting text.
The polymorph spell rules claim the spells they describe give you "a bonus to your natural armor" which is the exact same phrasing as what appears in the Amulet of Natural armor ("giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor") except it's untyped.
However, it doesn't seem to apply to a single spell of the polymorph subschool because they use different phrasing.
So, no stacking.
I don't see why the subject's existing bonus would be discarded though. Nothing in the rules implies that it does, so I would say the higher one prevails.
Ascalaphus |
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So let's regroup and summarize a bit. The question at hand:
Does a creature that polymorphs into a new form lose its old natural armor bonus?
Let's look at what the polymorph school says about that.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
The arguments for keeping and losing are roughly as follows:
Keep: Natural armor isn't an extraordinary or supernatural ability, therefore you don't explicitly lose it.
Lose: The list of examples of abilities that you lose include items that aren't extraordinary or supernatural (keen senses). It goes on to explain what criterium to use for decision: is the ability dependent on your form? Clearly, natural armor is dependent on your form, so you should lose it when you take a different form.
.
I believe the "Lose" interpretation is the right one.
BigNorseWolf |
Shouldn't then your natural physical stats which are based on your form get over written,. or at least the bonuses from your race? An elf's +2 dex should be going away then since that is dependent on being an elf.
No.
The rules are written by and for humans with the assumption that human is what's normal, so if you're an elf you are particularly dexterous and that carries over.
Kazaan |
I think I've got to lean on the side of not losing the natural armor as a default stance. The rules outline what, exactly, you lose:
1) Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities dependent on form
2) Natural Attacks and movement types possessed by the original form
3) Class features that depend on the original form
Natural Armor is neither an Extraordinary nor Supernatural ability; it actually has no type designation and is not listed at all under the Universal Monster Rules save for mentions about how Incorporeal creatures never have nor benefit from it. It's certainly not a natural attack or movement type, and it isn't a class feature. Hence, a Wildshaped Green Hag would maintain their +8 natural armor bonus (though, they would not gain the +2 natural armor bonus granted by the transformation).
_Ozy_ |
I don't see how one can argue that you lose natural armor without also arguing that all physical stats are likewise lost and substituted by those from the acquired form.
Strength relies on muscles, i.e. actual physical tissue, just like natural armor relies on 'tough skin' or some such physical mechanism.
Your muscles change just as much as your skin. So, why lose natural armor and not strength?
Sithis of Fangwood |
An Elf gets +2 Dex during character creation.
If playing a Frost Giant was possible, it'd presumably get +X to a physical stat as well.
So if the argument is that an Elf loses its +2 Dex when polymorphed, how much of [stat] does a Frost Giant lose when it's polymorphed?
The fact that there's no answer to that should clue you in to the Elf not losing its +2 Dex.
_Ozy_ |
_Ozy_ wrote:I don't see how one can argue that you lose natural armor without also arguing that all physical stats are likewise lost and substituted by those from the acquired form.
Because it explicitly tells you so
Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
I'm asking for a justification of the natural armor change. 'Because it says so' doesn't hold up if people are trying to argue 'real world' changes in physical properties.
Natural armor is not an Su or Ex ability, there is nothing that says natural armor changes, so if people are trying to argue that it has to change because skin changes, when we already have a specific example of physical changes (muscles) that don't affect an ability, they have to do a lot better than that.