Wildshaped green hag druid loses natural armor?


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As per the title; I'm wondering whether a hag druid would lose her substantial natural armor bonus when wildshaped into say an eagle. This situation arose in our Giantslayer campaign.

The Concordance

Anyone with their own Natural Armor replaces that bonus with the bonus provided by Wildshape instead.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

+1 Sithis


Ok. Thanks guys.


She does not. From polymorph(transmutation): Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

It's a bonus, not a replacement.


Azten wrote:

She does not. From polymorph(transmutation): Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

It's a bonus, not a replacement.

You do

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

That tough leathery hide on a green hag comes from their anatomy. You change the anatomy you lose that.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

+1 BNW


It is not an ability though. Trolls lose regeneration, not natural armor.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Welcome to table variance, as you can't quote a rule proving your side Azten nor can we quote a rule proving our side.


Prove Natural Armor is an ability then, like Web or Fast Healing. If the Natural Armor gets replaced by whatever the spell or ability says, and it's listed as a bonus and not a replacement, then the Physical Ability Scores should be treated the same way, yes?


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Azten wrote:
Prove Natural Armor is an ability then, like Web or Fast Healing. If the Natural Armor gets replaced by whatever the spell or ability says, and it's listed as a bonus and not a replacement, then the Physical Ability Scores should be treated the same way, yes?

Did you just read "you can't quote a rule proving your side Azten nor can we quote a rule proving our side" and respond "Prove your side"?

Also, from the PRD: "Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC" (emphasis mine).


Natural armor defaults to being a "Natural Ability" because it has no other designation. There's no specific mention of losing those, as opposed to extraordinary and supernatural abilities.

(Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.)


quibblemuch wrote:
Azten wrote:
Prove Natural Armor is an ability then, like Web or Fast Healing. If the Natural Armor gets replaced by whatever the spell or ability says, and it's listed as a bonus and not a replacement, then the Physical Ability Scores should be treated the same way, yes?

Did you just read "you can't quote a rule proving your side Azten nor can we quote a rule proving our side" and respond "Prove your side"?

Also, from the PRD: "Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC" (emphasis mine).

No, because I quoted the Polymorph rules earlier that support my claim.


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Azten wrote:


No, because I quoted the Polymorph rules earlier that support my claim.

They do not support your claim, they just don't 100% debunk it. There's a difference.


Azten wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
Azten wrote:
Prove Natural Armor is an ability then, like Web or Fast Healing. If the Natural Armor gets replaced by whatever the spell or ability says, and it's listed as a bonus and not a replacement, then the Physical Ability Scores should be treated the same way, yes?

Did you just read "you can't quote a rule proving your side Azten nor can we quote a rule proving our side" and respond "Prove your side"?

Also, from the PRD: "Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC" (emphasis mine).

No, because I quoted the Polymorph rules earlier that support my claim.

While ignoring: "While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed."


DM Fiat is not a good basis for rule discussion. The DM can easily say that Wizard's cast divine spells, but that doesn't mean it's in the core rules.


Only extraordinary and supernatural abilities are eligible for adjudication.

I find it mildly amusing that people don't blink an eye at very strong people polymorphing into tiny house cats that end up with strenght scores of 18+ but find they need to mangle the rules to exclude excessive rubberiness of skin.


Azten wrote:
DM Fiat is not a good basis for rule discussion. The DM can easily say that Wizard's cast divine spells, but that doesn't mean it's in the core rules.

your body changes into the new thing. Stuff that was based on your old body doesn't work anymore. Stuff thats based on your own body should be obvious, when i doubt ask the dm.

Thats the rules. Its pretty obvious that the hags have tough green skin and fluffy bunnies do not. If your hag turns into a fluffy bunny they lose the tough green skin. It's ridiculous to decry an iota of common sense, especially when the rule IS [insert common sense here]

The Concordance

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Huh. I was unaware this was up for debate.

Azten wrote:

Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

It's a bonus, not a replacement.

Indeed. But let's take a closer look at what's happening. I'll use myself, a Nagaji Druid, as an example:

Armored Scales: Nagaji have a +1 natural armor bonus from their scaly flesh.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.

Each of these grant a "+X natural armor bonus".

Neither the Polymorph effect nor the Racial Trait is granting a bonus "to" your existing natural armor. They are each granting their own similarly typed bonus.

And we know that most bonuses of the same type ("natural armor bonus", in this case) do not stack.

Ergo, you go with the higher of the two.


You get a +2 natural armor bonus.
You HAD a +8 natural armor bonus.

Net loss of 6 natural armor bonus.

The Concordance

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You get a +2 natural armor bonus.

You HAD a +8 natural armor bonus.

Net loss of 6 natural armor bonus.

Oh. Hmm. Good catch. I guess that invalidates my claim (EDIT: because rereading my post, it makes it seem I was arguing that the Hag's greater bonus would be used in place of the spell's bonus; I was not).

Carry on.


Sithis of Fangwood wrote:
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
Each of these grant a "+X natural armor bonus".

So what it boils down to is this being yet another case of conflicting text.

The polymorph spell rules claim the spells they describe give you "a bonus to your natural armor" which is the exact same phrasing as what appears in the Amulet of Natural armor ("giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor") except it's untyped.

However, it doesn't seem to apply to a single spell of the polymorph subschool because they use different phrasing.

So, no stacking.

I don't see why the subject's existing bonus would be discarded though. Nothing in the rules implies that it does, so I would say the higher one prevails.

The Concordance

An "enhancement bonus to natural armor" is the same as +1 Fullplate having an "enhancement bonus to armor".

Two armor bonuses don't stack, but "enhancement" is its own type.

Sovereign Court

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So let's regroup and summarize a bit. The question at hand:

Does a creature that polymorphs into a new form lose its old natural armor bonus?

Let's look at what the polymorph school says about that.

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

The arguments for keeping and losing are roughly as follows:

Keep: Natural armor isn't an extraordinary or supernatural ability, therefore you don't explicitly lose it.

Lose: The list of examples of abilities that you lose include items that aren't extraordinary or supernatural (keen senses). It goes on to explain what criterium to use for decision: is the ability dependent on your form? Clearly, natural armor is dependent on your form, so you should lose it when you take a different form.

.

I believe the "Lose" interpretation is the right one.

Community Manager

Removed some posts and their responses. Please be civil, thank you.


Shouldn't then your natural physical stats which are based on your form get over written,. or at least the bonuses from your race? An elf's +2 dex should be going away then since that is dependent on being an elf.


I asked something very similar and no one responded at all.


Talonhawke wrote:
Shouldn't then your natural physical stats which are based on your form get over written,. or at least the bonuses from your race? An elf's +2 dex should be going away then since that is dependent on being an elf.

No.

The rules are written by and for humans with the assumption that human is what's normal, so if you're an elf you are particularly dexterous and that carries over.


I think I've got to lean on the side of not losing the natural armor as a default stance. The rules outline what, exactly, you lose:
1) Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities dependent on form
2) Natural Attacks and movement types possessed by the original form
3) Class features that depend on the original form

Natural Armor is neither an Extraordinary nor Supernatural ability; it actually has no type designation and is not listed at all under the Universal Monster Rules save for mentions about how Incorporeal creatures never have nor benefit from it. It's certainly not a natural attack or movement type, and it isn't a class feature. Hence, a Wildshaped Green Hag would maintain their +8 natural armor bonus (though, they would not gain the +2 natural armor bonus granted by the transformation).


I don't see how one can argue that you lose natural armor without also arguing that all physical stats are likewise lost and substituted by those from the acquired form.

Strength relies on muscles, i.e. actual physical tissue, just like natural armor relies on 'tough skin' or some such physical mechanism.

Your muscles change just as much as your skin. So, why lose natural armor and not strength?


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_Ozy_ wrote:

I don't see how one can argue that you lose natural armor without also arguing that all physical stats are likewise lost and substituted by those from the acquired form.

Because it explicitly tells you so

Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

The Concordance

An Elf gets +2 Dex during character creation.

If playing a Frost Giant was possible, it'd presumably get +X to a physical stat as well.

So if the argument is that an Elf loses its +2 Dex when polymorphed, how much of [stat] does a Frost Giant lose when it's polymorphed?

The fact that there's no answer to that should clue you in to the Elf not losing its +2 Dex.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

I don't see how one can argue that you lose natural armor without also arguing that all physical stats are likewise lost and substituted by those from the acquired form.

Because it explicitly tells you so

Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

I'm asking for a justification of the natural armor change. 'Because it says so' doesn't hold up if people are trying to argue 'real world' changes in physical properties.

Natural armor is not an Su or Ex ability, there is nothing that says natural armor changes, so if people are trying to argue that it has to change because skin changes, when we already have a specific example of physical changes (muscles) that don't affect an ability, they have to do a lot better than that.


_Ozy_ wrote:


Natural armor is not an Su or Ex ability

Keen senses are not a su or ex ability, and those explicitly go. So the argument that the type of ability matters is bunk. If its based on your form it goes, unless the spell says otherwise. It says otherwise for stats.

The Concordance

Having +2 Natural Armor because of your scaly skin is certainly "form dependant".

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