Beast Shape in Oracle Mysteries - WHY?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Skylancer4 wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

But if that's the case, then why bother giving the Lunar Oracle shapeshifting powers at all? Who would ever decide to stay in a form where they can't cast spells for 8 hours? And why not make it consistent across the Mysteries? The Wood Oracle can turn into a Treant with Plant Shape and still cast spells. The Flame, Volcano, and Waves Oracles can turn into elementals using Elemental Body and still cast spells.

And then there's Dark Tapestry, which doesn't resemble any of the other Mysteries with their shapeshifting. I just can't figure this out, too many inconsistencies.

Because it isn't an MMO or video game and small choices like that make differences. Your choices mean something and not everything needs to be "balanced" with the next class or archetype. The fact that there are all these options is what makes table top gaming so much more interesting. You aren't forced to play clone #65738828383646 of a handful of options. It definitely can be confusing, but like any complicated system (which are all but phased out of present day gaming, MMOs or the like) it just takes using it to aquire familiarity/expertise. There isn't just one way to accomplish something, there are typically several paths to a desired result if you think outside the box.

yeah, no. Odds are they didn't do it on purpose.


HeHateMe wrote:

I think the issue for me is that I'm really not a fan of playing full casters, I prefer melee.

I've been thinking Oracle cause our current campaign may be ending somewhat soonish, and I'll probably have to take the "healer" role in the next campaign.

Oracles are really bad at the healer role because the cleric list in general and condition removal spells in particular are designed for prepared divine casters who know their entire list. Cleric and healing patron witch are the only non-Samsaran ways to get everything on schedule. Oracles are actually worse at 7-8 than warpriests because their spells known table is so bad and there are so many different condition removal spells. And of course they're also worse at 1-5 because the spontaneous full caster access delay makes them no better than 6 level casters down there but they don't have the class features a 6 level caster would have.

If you want to heal you worship probably Gorum, boost strength over wisdom (13 wisdom is enough), take scribe scroll, power attack, furious focus, heavy armor proficiency, and probably weapon focus, prepare nothing but divine favor in your first level slots, leave most of your other slots open until 5th. 5th gets a mix of righteous might or maybe quickened divine favor and breath of life, 6th at least one heal, and 7th and up you can prepare stuff that looks fun because all the obligation spells are lower level or can wait a day.

That's the battle cleric build that was considered best practice for clerics before the reach build was invented in a nutshell. It plays almost exactly like a generic melee martial except that you use your first standard action casting divine favor, which covers the BAB gap until level 13 and by then you're in 7th level spells and can afford to keep a couple righteous mights on hand without compromising your ability to have breath of life since BoL is the only major urgent 5th level unselfish spell.

You play pretty much like any other melee martial except that you have to take a round to buff up and you'll eventually learn just how paranoid about condition removal you actually have to be with your GM and your party composition.


I would bet my coins that neither Lunar nor Dark Tapestry were designed with a "battle cleric" concept in mind, and that Battle or Metal was (i know, mind blowing).


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Atarlost wrote:
Oracles are really bad at the healer role because the cleric list in general and condition removal spells in particular are designed for prepared divine casters who know their entire list.

A Mnemonic Vestment with a few scrolls is how to take care of condition removal as an oracle at a reasonable level.

***********************************

Vestment, Mnemonic

Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th; Slot body; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION

The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface.

If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script (Editor’s Note: This should probably be Spellcraft.) or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source.

A mnemonic vestment must be worn for 24 consecutive hours before using its effects.


shadowkras wrote:
I would bet my coins that neither Lunar nor Dark Tapestry were designed with a "battle cleric" concept in mind, and that Battle or Metal was (i know, mind blowing).

And yet Lunar is one of the best mysteries for going battle oracle with, assuming you go with natural attacks and a race with claws.


Rory wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Oracles are really bad at the healer role because the cleric list in general and condition removal spells in particular are designed for prepared divine casters who know their entire list.

A Mnemonic Vestment with a few scrolls is how to take care of condition removal as an oracle at a reasonable level.

***********************************

Vestment, Mnemonic

Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th; Slot body; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION

The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface.

If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script (Editor’s Note: This should probably be Spellcraft.) or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source.

A mnemonic vestment must be worn for 24 consecutive hours before using its effects.

That's a great item, is that homebrew or in an official Paizo book?


HeHateMe wrote:
Rory wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Oracles are really bad at the healer role because the cleric list in general and condition removal spells in particular are designed for prepared divine casters who know their entire list.

A Mnemonic Vestment with a few scrolls is how to take care of condition removal as an oracle at a reasonable level.

***********************************

Vestment, Mnemonic

Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th; Slot body; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION

The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface.

If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script (Editor’s Note: This should probably be Spellcraft.) or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source.

A mnemonic vestment must be worn for 24 consecutive hours before using its effects.

That's a great item, is that homebrew or in an official Paizo book?

If it references decipher script it's probably from a 3.5 source.


HyperMissingno wrote:
shadowkras wrote:
I would bet my coins that neither Lunar nor Dark Tapestry were designed with a "battle cleric" concept in mind, and that Battle or Metal was (i know, mind blowing).
And yet Lunar is one of the best mysteries for going battle oracle with, assuming you go with natural attacks and a race with claws.

Except Battle and Metal aren't great at melee either. Those mysteries have one or two decent revelations, and frankly are full of garbage otherwise. Also, like all Oracles, having a bad Fort save will doom you in melee combat. There isn't a single mystery that addresses that Achilles heel.

I think Oracles in general are just not built for melee, they're really built more to be back rank casters.


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Honestly the bad reflex save has screwed me more often than the bad fort save, so expect campaign variance on that Achilles Heel.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
HeHateMe wrote:
I think Oracles in general are just not built for melee, they're really built more to be back rank casters.

I disagree, but you do have to know what you're doing with you limited resources (feats, spells, skills). I even took two non-combat revelations and am still doing well in the front line. It's more about my spell selections (and using the human alt. FCB). Metal is a great melee mystery just with lead blades on its own. Give him a scythe and then vital strike. It just didn't fit my character concept.

However, Oracles do also (and probably easier) make good debuffers and controllers.


Atarlost wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Rory wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Oracles are really bad at the healer role because the cleric list in general and condition removal spells in particular are designed for prepared divine casters who know their entire list.

A Mnemonic Vestment with a few scrolls is how to take care of condition removal as an oracle at a reasonable level.

***********************************

Vestment, Mnemonic

Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th; Slot body; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION

The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface.

If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script (Editor’s Note: This should probably be Spellcraft.) or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source.

A mnemonic vestment must be worn for 24 consecutive hours before using its effects.

That's a great item, is that homebrew or in an official Paizo book?
If it references decipher script it's probably from a 3.5 source.

It's from Ultimate Equipment, it's forums famous, and Google is a thing.


HyperMissingno wrote:
Honestly the bad reflex save has screwed me more often than the bad fort save, so expect campaign variance on that Achilles Heel.

You have a good point in that reflex comes up more often, but in my experience the consequences of failing a fort save are much worse. That's just my experience though.


HeHateMe wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Honestly the bad reflex save has screwed me more often than the bad fort save, so expect campaign variance on that Achilles Heel.
You have a good point in that reflex comes up more often, but in my experience the consequences of failing a fort save are much worse. That's just my experience though.

In my experience failing a fort save means you take a slight bit of ability damage that you can fix later, heck it might be slow enough that it doesn't kick in until you're at town where you can call a cleric to fix you.

Meanwhile failing a reflex save means you go from full health to one hit from dropping to the floor, and in some cases it instantly drops you to the floor. That's not even mentioning the Shaken Spell or Sickening Spell feats to debuff you, or Dazing Spell if you've pissed off the GM.


Iron Constitution from the Metal mystery directly addresses the fortitude problem.


Meh, that's not much of a solution. Iron Constitution as a solution to a poor fort save is like trying to stop a pumping arterial bleed with a band aid.


HeHateMe wrote:

Also, like all Oracles, having a bad Fort save will doom you in melee combat. There isn't a single mystery that addresses that Achilles heel.

You will never have as good of a Fort save as a typical warrior class, but you can get around it decently with a bit of effort. Every warrior class has a weakness to shore up. Melee oracles are no different.

Example: Remove Sickness and Delay Poison are two longer lasting buff spells that help some common fort saves.

Fun Thought: Starting at level 4, pick up a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and the Delay Poison spell and you can make yourself immune to poison for the rest of the character's life.


I never really worried about my fort save as a battle oracle in Serpent's Skull. The only time it ever came up and was a problem was the last fight of the adventure path. That fight was super nasty anyway, since our front liners(I was a reach Oracle) weren't there.

Liberty's Edge

HeHateMe wrote:
Hmmm...interesting. I never play full casters so I have no idea, but are there any feats that provide a static damage bonus for spell attacks, like a blasting version of weapon specialization or power attack?

Yes, do a web search for crossblooded orc + draconic sorcerer and you should get many sample builds.


Rory wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Also, like all Oracles, having a bad Fort save will doom you in melee combat. There isn't a single mystery that addresses that Achilles heel.

You will never have as good of a Fort save as a typical warrior class, but you can get around it decently with a bit of effort. Every warrior class has a weakness to shore up. Melee oracles are no different.

Example: Remove Sickness and Delay Poison are two longer lasting buff spells that help some common fort saves.

Fun Thought: Starting at level 4, pick up a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and the Delay Poison spell and you can make yourself immune to poison for the rest of the character's life.

Ah, now that's quite an interesting solution, I like that!


Quote:
And yet Lunar is one of the best mysteries for going battle oracle with, assuming you go with natural attacks and a race with claws.

I agree, but i was talking about the intent of the developers.

If i recall correctly, the strongest melee build ever created (for 3.x) had sorcerer levels as the main class.

Nowdays, draconic sorcerers are still going strong.

Its one of those things that makes Pathfinder fantastic, you can build whatever you want with all your character options.

Quote:
Meh, that's not much of a solution. Iron Constitution as a solution to a poor fort save is like trying to stop a pumping arterial bleed with a band aid.

It does help though.

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