I have come up with 4 different ways to make a polymorphing sneak attacker and want to get some feedback on which one would be the best. The main idea is to have a char that turns into an animal with a large number of natural attacks to maximize the sneak attack damage output. The big ones at each level being:
Beast Shape I: Deinonychus, 4 attacks, pounce
Beast Shape II: Giant Octopus, 8 attacks, good reach, swim, jet
Beast Shape III: Giant Lake Octopus, Huge version of the above
Beast Shape IV: Sand Kraken, 10 attacks, good reach, constrict
Build 1
Druid (Crocodile Domain)
BS I at 4th lvl; BS II at 6th; BS III at 8th
Pros: Longest use of BS, after lvl 6 you can reliably have it for every fight. You get a familiar that can help you flank. Fastest access to BS.
Cons: No BS IV. Sneak attack doesn't start until 6th. Most of your feats have to be spent on Accomplished Sneak Attacker (you can retrain your old feats to this after 6th to stay full). Has to spend yet another feat on Natural Spell.
Build 2
Alchemist (Vivisectionist, Beastmorph)
BS I at 7th lvl; BS II at 10th; BS III at 13th; BS IV at 16th
Pros: Mutagen for making you super bad-ass for 1 or 2 fights. Mutagen can give your tentacled form flying and pounce without any magic items or extra spells. Access to cool discoveries. Doesn't need to spend a single feat on Accomplished Sneak Attacker like the others.
Cons: Worst spellcasting of the bunch. Very slow to get BS II and up.
Build 3
Brawler 1 (Snakebite Striker, Strangler), Wizard 3 (Transumation: Shapechange), Arcane Trickster for the rest
BS I at 6th lvl; BS II at 8th; BS III at 10th; BS IV at 12th
Pros: Best spell list. You get a familiar that can help you flank. +1 natural attack on top of normal. Cool stuff from Arcane Trickster. Get automatic sneak attack on all grappled targets.
Cons: Worst hit points and BAB. Sneak attack progresses at 1 lvl later unless you spend a 2nt feat on ASA. Can't cast while transformed until you get Tricky Spells at 9th.
Build 4
Brawler 1 (Snakebite Striker, Strangler), Arcanist 4, Arcane Trickster for the rest
BS I at 7th lvl; BS II at 9th; BS III at 11th; BS IV at 13th
Pros: Best spell list with the best way to prepare and cast spells (IMO). Shift Caster lets you cast while polymorphed. 1 extra Exploit and can get more with feats (best ones being Familiar, Dimensional Slide, Quick Study, and School Understanding for Shapechange). Cool stuff from Arcane Trickster. Get automatic sneak attack on all grappled targets.
Cons: Worst hit points and BAB. 2 feats spent on ASA. Everything comes 1 level later than Build 3.
Notes for Builds 3 and 4: They can also get Trapfinding (for Ranged Legerdemain) with Variant Multiclassing: Rogue. Chill Touch and Calcific Touch can also make your natural attacks more effective.
Imho best build is Sanctified Slayer/Green Faith Martial Inquisitor with the Fur Domain.
- 5d6 Sneak Attack (6d6 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker)
- Animal Companion to flank
- SAD
- Beast Shape I and III
- Bane which is essentially +2d6 sneak attack
- Studied Target for extra attack/damage
Here's a sample 20 pt. buy build with a Dual Talent Human:
S16+2 D12 C14 I10 W15+2 CH7
Feats.
LV1. Heavy Armor Proficiency
LV3. Power Attack
LV5. Boon Companion
LV7. Accomplished Sneak Attacker
LV8. Natural Attack Ranger Combat Style > Improved Natural Attack
Note: I started to write this response a week ago and then got slammed with work.
The problem with Bane is that it can only be used for 1 weapon (or natural attack). It's not like Weapon Focus: Tentacle that gives you a bonus for all your tentacles.
Your suggestion is probably best compared to Build 2 from above.
= Studied target is less than half as good as Mutagen but can be used more often
= Beast Shape I and III at same levels
- No BS II or IV
= Same spellcasting progression, but much different spell list. Don't know which list is better. Probably mostly depends on the rest of the group.
- More feats need to be spent on extra sneak attack
+ Animal companion for flanking.
= Bane and Teamwork Feats instead of Discoveries.
Definitely works as another possible build, but I don't think it stands out as the best of the bunch.
A note on SAD: All the builds need 2 stats. Str primary and spellcasting stat secondary (Int or Wis). Build 4 also requires you to have some Cha, but not much.
Another note fore all the builds: Seems like you can only take Accomplished Sneak Attacker once, but you can still get extra sneak attack dice by "spending feats" on Variant Multiclassing: Rogue.
I would consider going with a build that used Monstrous Physique to turn into a gargoyle (bite, gore, claws), and combining it with Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike and Multiattack. Artful Dodge lets you meet TWF prerequisites with INT if stat-crunch is an issue. By the time you have Improved TWF, you can go unarmed-2/unarmed-2/unarmed-7/unarmed-7/claw-2/claw-2/bite-2/gore-2. You only need level 3 spells to get Monstrous Physique and Heroism, so it's a pretty wide-open setup beyond 5/6 arcane levels. If you want to be stylish about it, you can use a manufactured weapon in one hand at the cost of one claw strike.
If you're looking for the best build it shouldn't be surprising if that turns out to involve a wizard. I think the alchemist comes together best thematically but the brawler/wizard/AT looks the most powerful.
technically Eldritch Scoundrel is an option, but it's probably strictly worse than Vivisectionist.
Have you looked at Druid VMC Rogue with Crocodile domain? It's probably the most versatile, albeit getting SA rather late. With ASA at lvl 9, we have 1d6 at lvl6, 2d6 at 7, 3d6 at 9, 5d6 at 11, 6d6 at 15, 7d6 at 16 and 8d6 at 19.
Instead of expensive Wild Heavy Armor, one could go for dex-based and weapon finsse, which work with tentacles. you're not looking for a big str bonus to damage anyways, but SA.
Croc domain druid with rogue vmc and 1 level dip of brawler as above could work together. Plenty of good grapple wildshapes. Plus croc domain gets you mass heal before a cleric too
Croc domain druid with rogue vmc and 1 level dip of brawler as above could work together. Plenty of good grapple wildshapes. Plus croc domain gets you mass heal before a cleric too
you want the Strangler feat, of course.
A Seal is better than a Squid for pretty much any combat situation, sneaks included.
@BadBird: Gargoyle is an interesting option. Especially as a possible replacement for Beast Shape I to give you a fly speed instead of pounce when flying might be more useful. At higher levels, I think BS II and III and high level spells may prove better than a bunch of monk levels. You get a bigger boost to your Str and your 8 or 10 tentacle attacks have no penalty.
@Ellioti: That's what Build 1 is, Druid with VMC Rogue and Accomplished Sneak. You can also get another 1d6 by having you and your animal companion take Precise Strike. This also goes for all builds that give you a flanking buddy that can take feats.
Sure, a dex based build can give you decent AC, but when BS III +6 Str, -4 Dex and -2 AC due to size, Str based will let you hit more often and much harder. Hopefully taking out the threat before it can hit you too much.
If anyone can find a tiny or smaller creature with lots of attacks to turn into, let me know. Because then a Dex based build would be so much better when you can grab an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
@Imbicatus: If you can reliably get flanking (which you should be able to), I would say both options are about the same. Jabbing Style can only give +1d6. Jabbing Master changes that to +4d6, but at the cost of heavy feat investment: Jabbing Dancer (kinda neat), Dodge and Weapon Focus: Tentacle (very meh), mobility and feral combat training (almost worthless).
The other problem with Jabbing Style is it will only work with natural attacks that you took WF for. If you find a situation where turning into a Gorgimera might be better, you can't get your jabs in with it.
@Daw: Wut?
Scud422
Do you know anyone in the US Navy?
Also: another interesting option is to take Evangelist and devote yourself to Lymneris. His 2nt boon, which you can get as early as level 11, is you can cast Greater Polymorph once per day on any creature with a duration of permanent until you cast it again. This would be the fastest way to get to BS IV, and can even be taken with nothing but Rogue or Brawler.
What's also cool is that you can use it on your familiar or animal companion to make them an even more bad-assed flanking buddy.
And another note for any build that gives a familiar: the Mauler archetype works well for having a flanking buddy.
Scud422
Do you know anyone in the US Navy?
Ah.
I thought you were suggesting another form for beast shape.
Imho best build is Sanctified Slayer/Green Faith Martial Inquisitor with the Fur Domain.
- 5d6 Sneak Attack (6d6 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker)
- Animal Companion to flank
- SAD
- Beast Shape I and III
- Bane which is essentially +2d6 sneak attack
- Studied Target for extra attack/damage
Here's a sample 20 pt. buy build with a Dual Talent Human:
S16+2 D12 C14 I10 W15+2 CH7
Feats.
LV1. Heavy Armor Proficiency
LV3. Power Attack
LV5. Boon Companion
LV7. Accomplished Sneak Attacker
LV8. Natural Attack Ranger Combat Style > Improved Natural Attack
Still think you can fit a Snakebite Brawler for an extra Sneak attk.