thistledown |
11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sash of the war champion let's you treat your fighter level as 4 higher for armor training. At level 7, you can use advanced armor training to swap out Armor Training for other abilities. If you're a level 3 fighter, does the Sash qualify you for swapping out your boost and getting an ability instead?
Darksol the Painbringer |
I disagree. It'd be more along the lines of improving the benefits of your existing Armor Training bonuses, not grant you new abilities a la Advanced Armor Training.
So you can't, for example, be a 3rd level Fighter, wear the Sash, and gain a new Advanced Armor Training benefit as if you were 7th level (though if you already had an Advanced Armor Training benefit that scales with your Fighter level, that would increase).
Most effects that grant you a level increase to a certain feature usually doesn't give you the extra options associated with said feature, only improving the options you already have, unless it says otherwise, as is the case with Dragon Disciple. This is common with Bloodline Powers, Oracle Revelations, and so on.
dragonhunterq |
I disagree. It'd be more along the lines of improving the benefits of your existing Armor Training bonuses, not grant you new abilities a la Advanced Armor Training.
So you can't, for example, be a 3rd level Fighter, wear the Sash, and gain a new Advanced Armor Training benefit as if you were 7th level (though if you already had an Advanced Armor Training benefit that scales with your Fighter level, that would increase).
Most effects that grant you a level increase to a certain feature usually doesn't give you the extra options associated with said feature, only improving the options you already have, unless it says otherwise, as is the case with Dragon Disciple. This is common with Bloodline Powers, Oracle Revelations, and so on.
+1
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Amrel |
Most effects that grant you a level increase to a certain feature usually doesn't give you the extra options associated with said feature, only improving the options you already have, unless it says otherwise, as is the case with Dragon Disciple. This is common with Bloodline Powers, Oracle Revelations, and so on.
Can you point out a place in the rules where this gets stated, or a place in the rules where it says that items or abilities that increase your level for the purpose of a class feature do not grant named level dependent abilities within that same class feature? (that they only grant increases to existing ones). If you can then I agree with you and don't bother reading the rest of my post :)
If gaining access to Advanced armor training was listed as a separate ability that you gained at level 7 then I also think you would be right, but as far as I can tell its listed as an additional facet of the same ability (like when you gain an additional +1 when your character level reaches 7th, 11th, and 15th), as opposed to an entirely separate one. The advanced armor training section even lends it self to the idea that its the same ability when says that if you take an archetype that replaces armor training you can't benefit from Advanced armor training.
Abilities like Magus classes' spell recall and improved spell recall are examples of what you are referencing (in the sense that they are separate, and that the second alters the first), so I think the distinction is important.
Just because other abilities or items are more detailed in what they do and don't grant doesn't mean all descriptions need to take that approach as long as they are clear. For example, just because dragon disciple has the text that says that your level gets added when determining what powers the bloodline class feature grants you doesn't mean that an item that said I could treat my level as x levels higher for the purposes of the sorcerer's bloodline class feature wouldn't also grant me additional powers.
Considering the above, and that the item specifically says that your level is 4 higher for the purposes of the ability with no limiting text, to me it seems that means that all parts of the ability are affected.
Regardless of how you want to look at the rules, it seems to me like the item/feature doesn't seem unbalanced, especially considering the fighter class as a whole. Given that fact, and the fact that as far as I am concerned the ability text does seem to support this, or at the least it seems very easy to argue either way, as a DM I would allow it.
master_marshmallow |
To be fair, the Sash of the War Champion was printed before Advanced Armor Training was printed, and being such there is no official rule.
There is precedent which allows earlier access to class features using similar language. Your effective level for that class feature is treated as 4 levels higher, but your BAB (which is what most of the AAT options go off IIRC) would not be altered.
Best advice: ask the DM, (s)he'll need to make a rule on the fly until there is some sort of official clarification.
Chess Pwn |
greater bane is a different class feature though, so I can easily see why upping bane doesn't change it to greater bane.
But this is like saying a bard can instead of gaining a +1 to inspire courage can get a bonus to fly checks. If he had the banner to raise his bard level for inspire courage and reached into the level where he'd get a +1 he should be able to choose the replacement option since you'd be gaining a +1 do to levels.
Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.
Well the sash is making you count as a level 7 fighter for this. And that means that it'd normally be increasing the benefits provided, but you can do advanced training instead of it.
master_marshmallow |
greater bane is a different class feature though, so I can easily see why upping bane doesn't change it to greater bane.
But this is like saying a bard can instead of gaining a +1 to inspire courage can get a bonus to fly checks. If he had the banner to raise his bard level for inspire courage and reached into the level where he'd get a +1 he should be able to choose the replacement option since you'd be gaining a +1 do to levels.
Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.
Well the sash is making you count as a level 7 fighter for this. And that means that it'd normally be increasing the benefits provided, but you can do advanced training instead of it.
This was my interpretation as well, since Greater Bane is a separate class feature it wouldn't qualify for it (and as such archetypes that get Greater bane, but not regular bane simply grant bane at that higher level).
You can't have it one way and not the other- at leat by my interpretation.
If your DM considers Advanced Armor Training to be a separate class feature then you're SOL.
Until there is an official ruling (which I expect to see soon) then you are at the DM's mercy.
Purple Dragon Knight |
It should.
The sash says that your fighter level counts as 4 higher for the purpose of the armor training class feature and Advanced Armor Training is listed as a sub item under the Armor training class feature (as opposed to being listed as a separate feature)
Agreed.
Master Armorer is pretty badass by the way...
Weirdo |
I'm not sure how the RAW should be read, but it does seem to make the item significantly better than it was intended to be.
There is precedent which allows earlier access to class features using similar language.
The robe specifically states that it grants access to powers at earlier levels: "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects." Since that could easily be a case of specific overriding general rules, I don't think it's a good precedent.
Your effective level for that class feature is treated as 4 levels higher, but your BAB (which is what most of the AAT options go off IIRC) would not be altered.
Nope. Only 1 AAT option uses BAB (master armourer). 6 scale off level, and 3 don't scale.
It's a 4k item. At level 3? That's a pretty huge investment.
Level 3 is just an example. You could also be a 7th level fighter wondering if being treated as an 11th level fighter for Armour Training means that you get access to your 11th level AAT pick.
If a 7th level fighter with Armour Specialization wears a Sash of the War Champion, he gets +1 AC for treating his fighter level as 11.
If he also gets to pick a new AAT as an 11th level fighter would, he can also take Armoured Juggernaut and get 1-3 points of DR/- depending on type of armour worn.
Bravery also increases from +2 to +3, which could mean an extra +1 to all will saves if the character has AWT (armed bravery).
+1 AC, DR 3/- in full plate, and +1 will saves is a really good deal for 4k at level 7.
Amrel |
I'm not sure how the RAW should be read, but it does seem to make the item significantly better than it was intended to be.
I don't know if I agree, its true that AAT didn't exist when the item was created, so I guess by definition it makes it better than it was initially intended, but I don't see any AAT options that drastically change the players abilities if you got it earlier.
If a 7th level fighter with Armour Specialization wears a Sash of the War Champion, he gets +1 AC for treating his fighter level as 11.
If he also gets to pick a new AAT as an 11th level fighter would, he can also take Armoured Juggernaut and get 1-3 points of DR/- depending on type of armour worn.
Bravery also increases from +2 to +3, which could mean an extra +1 to all will saves if the character has AWT (armed bravery).
+1 AC, DR 3/- in full plate, and +1 will saves is a really good deal for 4k at level 7.
Its true that he can get those things, but you're blowing it out a little bit. If the answer to the above question is yes, then the player gets one extra thing. You're either getting +1 AC, OR DR 3/-, OR +1 to will saves as an extra AAT with the sash. You can have all three, but you don't get them from the sash
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Darksol the Painbringer |
Weirdo wrote:I'm not sure how the RAW should be read, but it does seem to make the item significantly better than it was intended to be.
I don't know if I agree, its true that AAT didn't exist when the item was created, so I guess by definition it makes it better than it was initially intended, but I don't see any AAT options that drastically change the players abilities if you got it earlier.
Weirdo wrote:Its true that he can get those things, but you're blowing it out a little bit. If the answer to the above question is yes, then the player gets one extra thing. You're either getting +1 AC, OR DR 3/-, OR +1 to will saves as an extra AAT with the sash. You can have all three, but you don't get them from the sash
If a 7th level fighter with Armour Specialization wears a Sash of the War Champion, he gets +1 AC for treating his fighter level as 11.
If he also gets to pick a new AAT as an 11th level fighter would, he can also take Armoured Juggernaut and get 1-3 points of DR/- depending on type of armour worn.
Bravery also increases from +2 to +3, which could mean an extra +1 to all will saves if the character has AWT (armed bravery).
+1 AC, DR 3/- in full plate, and +1 will saves is a really good deal for 4k at level 7.
Even if it's "not OP" (which is debatable), I highly doubt it was intended to work that way. It's designed to improve what you already have, not what you currently possess.
After all, I highly doubt a 7th level Inquisitor with a Bane Baldric:
If the wearer is an inquisitor, she is treated as five levels higher when using her bane and greater bane abilities.
Can, all of a sudden, gain the benefits of Greater Bane. He's counted as 5 levels higher when using those abilities, but at 7th level, he's not using Greater Bane, meaning his effective increase to 12th level doesn't automatically grant him Greater Bane.
master_marshmallow |
Amrel wrote:Weirdo wrote:I'm not sure how the RAW should be read, but it does seem to make the item significantly better than it was intended to be.
I don't know if I agree, its true that AAT didn't exist when the item was created, so I guess by definition it makes it better than it was initially intended, but I don't see any AAT options that drastically change the players abilities if you got it earlier.
Weirdo wrote:Its true that he can get those things, but you're blowing it out a little bit. If the answer to the above question is yes, then the player gets one extra thing. You're either getting +1 AC, OR DR 3/-, OR +1 to will saves as an extra AAT with the sash. You can have all three, but you don't get them from the sash
If a 7th level fighter with Armour Specialization wears a Sash of the War Champion, he gets +1 AC for treating his fighter level as 11.
If he also gets to pick a new AAT as an 11th level fighter would, he can also take Armoured Juggernaut and get 1-3 points of DR/- depending on type of armour worn.
Bravery also increases from +2 to +3, which could mean an extra +1 to all will saves if the character has AWT (armed bravery).
+1 AC, DR 3/- in full plate, and +1 will saves is a really good deal for 4k at level 7.
Even if it's "not OP" (which is debatable), I highly doubt it was intended to work that way. It's designed to improve what you already have, not what you currently possess.
After all, I highly doubt a 7th level Inquisitor with a Bane Baldric:
Bane Baldric wrote:If the wearer is an inquisitor, she is treated as five levels higher when using her bane and greater bane abilities.Can, all of a sudden, gain the benefits of Greater Bane. He's counted as 5 levels higher when using those abilities, but at 7th level, he's not using Greater Bane, meaning his effective increase to 12th level doesn't automatically grant him Greater Bane.
Greater Bane is a separate class feature, Advanced Armor Training is not.
Find a better argument, or just agree with the consensus that it's a DM's call.There's arguments for both sides.
Darksol the Painbringer |
By this same logic, a sorcerer with the Robes cannot access the Bloodline Mutations that are accessible in place of certain bloodline powers yes?
The robes say:
The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.
Bloodline Mutations aren't Bloodline Powers, and requires that you substitute the relevant bloodline power in order to take them, so yes, they can't. Just like how Advanced Armor Training isn't Armor Training, and requires that you substitute the relevant Armor Training bonus in order to take them.
You would gain the base benefit of the original feature, not any substitutions or additives of that feature unless it specifically says so, or you already have the effects of a given substitution or additive (i.e. archetype).
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:By this same logic, a sorcerer with the Robes cannot access the Bloodline Mutations that are accessible in place of certain bloodline powers yes?The robes say:
Robe of Arcane Heritage wrote:The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.Bloodline Mutations aren't Bloodline Powers, and requires that you substitute the relevant bloodline power in order to take them, so yes, they can't. Just like how Advanced Armor Training isn't Armor Training, and requires that you substitute the relevant Armor Training bonus in order to take them.
You would gain the base benefit of the original feature, not any substitutions or additives of that feature unless it specifically says so, or you already have the effects of a given substitution or additive (i.e. archetype).
You're grasping at straws, starting with a conclusion, and purposely excluding the written language to justify your endgame.
Whenever a bloodrager or a sorcerer gains a new bloodline power, she can swap her bloodline power for a bloodline mutation whose prerequisites she meets.
"Whenever" means whenever, it doesn't mean "not whenever."
That should include donning an item which grants them.EDIT: Since we are on the topic of different class features as listed, Armor Training 1, 2, 3, and 4 are all listed as separate class features and different archetypes trade them out as written, therefore the logic that the Sash won't grant access to the Adanced Armor Training options would also imply that the Sash doesn't work at all for Armor Training in general.
Darksol the Painbringer |
That's exactly the sort of cheese that Paragon Surge was used for, and look what happened to it; it was fixed to grant a specific set of benefits on the first time of casting it. Recasting or refreshing it doesn't let you change the benefits anymore, because it was never intended to give you a flexible feat to be used however you wanted.
There's table variation, no doubt about it, but I can assure you that when it gets brought to the devs, they're going to say it won't work, because the Sash was never intended to grant you an extra ability, only improve what abilities you currently possess, and there are several other items that have similar wording, Bane Baldric being the biggest culprit.
master_marshmallow |
That's exactly the sort of cheese that Paragon Surge was used for, and look what happened to it; it was fixed to grant a specific set of benefits on the first time of casting it. Recasting or refreshing it doesn't let you change the benefits anymore, because it was never intended to give you a flexible feat to be used however you wanted.
There's table variation, no doubt about it, but I can assure you that when it gets brought to the devs, they're going to say it won't work, because the Sash was never intended to grant you an extra ability, only improve what abilities you currently possess, and there are several other items that have similar wording, Bane Baldric being the biggest culprit.
"It'll probably get ruled like this" and "this is how it works" are two different statements.
One of them is acceptable in the Rules Forum, one is not.
I would more or less expect to see a general rule come out which says something about the similarly worded items which all increase an effective class level by 4, since the Robes and the Sash by virtue of existing both grant additional class features as written, and as written a player who has access to those class features can select alternate options.
A personal interpretation based on earlier rulings is just as valid as an interpretation based on the written rules, since it is very obviously intended to allow access to class features 4 levels earlier, otherwise the items wouldn't exist.
Table variance until official ruling is the only true correct answer we have right now. Hit FAQ because it matters.
Diego Rossi |
Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.
...
This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
Your character is 7th level? No?
He can't use Advanced Armor Training.The requirement isn't "having armor training as a level 7 fighter", it is being a 7th level fighter.
This feat allow you to take Advanced Armor Training at level 3:
The following feat helps fighters further customize their personal armor training abilities.Advanced Armor Training (Combat)
You are specially trained to use your armor proficiencies in new ways.
Prerequisites: Armor training class feature, fighter level 3rd.Benefit: Select one advanced armor training option.
Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 3 fighter levels.
With all respect for that site, reading the source document and not the distilled form you find in D20PFSRD help.
master_marshmallow |
Advanced Armor Training wrote:Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.Sash of the War Champion wrote:
...
This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.[/quote+Your character is 7th level? No?
He can't use Advanced Armor Training.
The requirement isn't "having armor training as a level 7 fighter", it is being a 7th level fighter.
Being treated as a 7th level fighter means being treated as a 7th level fighter.
See: Silver Smite Bracelet and Bracers of the Avenging Knight for clarification on the difference.
Diego Rossi |
Diego Rossi wrote:Advanced Armor Training wrote:Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.Sash of the War Champion wrote:
...
This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.[/quote+Your character is 7th level? No?
He can't use Advanced Armor Training.
The requirement isn't "having armor training as a level 7 fighter", it is being a 7th level fighter.Being treated as a 7th level fighter means being treated as a 7th level fighter.
See: Silver Smite Bracelet and Bracers of the Avenging Knight for clarification on the difference.
You fail at reading:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class feature.
You are treated as if your fighter level was 4 levels higher for 2 class features. You aren't treated as 4 level higher for you character level.
To repeat it again: the requirement is a specific character level, not having x character level for a single or multiples features.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Diego Rossi wrote:Advanced Armor Training wrote:Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.Sash of the War Champion wrote:
...
This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.[/quote+Your character is 7th level? No?
He can't use Advanced Armor Training.
The requirement isn't "having armor training as a level 7 fighter", it is being a 7th level fighter.Being treated as a 7th level fighter means being treated as a 7th level fighter.
See: Silver Smite Bracelet and Bracers of the Avenging Knight for clarification on the difference.
You fail at reading:
Sash of the War Champion wrote:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class feature.You are treated as if your fighter level was 4 levels higher for 2 class features. You aren't treated as 4 level higher for you character level.
To repeat it again: the requirement is a specific character level, not having x character level for a single or multiples features.
Advanced Armor Training is part of Armor Training, you are treated as a 7th level fight for the purpose of Armor Training.
Reading comprehension: In-tact
Table Variance man, it happens, just hit FAQ.
Diego Rossi |
It don't say anywhere that the requisite is having level 7 in armor training, it say: "Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.," and that is the fighter level, not a single feature of the class.
master_marshmallow |
It don't say anywhere that the requisite is having level 7 in armor training, it say: "Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.," and that is the fighter level, not a single feature of the class.
Highly skilled and tenacious fighters can gain advanced armor training, learning techniques and applications of the armor training class feature that give them special benefits in exchange for reducing their ability to mitigate their armor’s armor check penalty and improve its maximum Dexterity bonus.
Advanced armor training options function only when the fighter is wearing appropriate armor or using a shield, unless otherwise noted. A fighter with an archetype that replaces armor training cannot select advanced armor training options.
Emphasis mine.
It is part of the armor training class feature, as written.
Table variance man, it happens, just hit FAQ.
Diego Rossi |
Diego Rossi wrote:It don't say anywhere that the requisite is having level 7 in armor training, it say: "Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.," and that is the fighter level, not a single feature of the class.
Advanced Armor Training wrote:Highly skilled and tenacious fighters can gain advanced armor training, learning techniques and applications of the armor training class feature that give them special benefits in exchange for reducing their ability to mitigate their armor’s armor check penalty and improve its maximum Dexterity bonus.
Advanced armor training options function only when the fighter is wearing appropriate armor or using a shield, unless otherwise noted. A fighter with an archetype that replaces armor training cannot select advanced armor training options.
Emphasis mine.
It is part of the armor training class feature, as written.
Table variance man, it happens, just hit FAQ.
But the prerequisite is the class level, not the feature. There is nothing to FAQ.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:But the prerequisite is the class level, not the feature. There is nothing to FAQ.Diego Rossi wrote:It don't say anywhere that the requisite is having level 7 in armor training, it say: "Beginning at 7th level, instead of increasing the benefits provided by armor training (reducing his armor’s check penalty by 1 and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus by 1), a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option.," and that is the fighter level, not a single feature of the class.
Advanced Armor Training wrote:Highly skilled and tenacious fighters can gain advanced armor training, learning techniques and applications of the armor training class feature that give them special benefits in exchange for reducing their ability to mitigate their armor’s armor check penalty and improve its maximum Dexterity bonus.
Advanced armor training options function only when the fighter is wearing appropriate armor or using a shield, unless otherwise noted. A fighter with an archetype that replaces armor training cannot select advanced armor training options.
Emphasis mine.
It is part of the armor training class feature, as written.
Table variance man, it happens, just hit FAQ.
For the feat, sure, not for the option itself which is based on your effective level for that class feature which is augmented by the item.
Additionally, the item must grant access to class features early, otherwise we end up with a goofy situation where you qualify for the feat (prerequisite: fighter level 3rd, armor training level 7th) but not for gaining the alternate option (Armor Training x+1) since it "doesn't grant additional class features", and Armor Training x+1 is most undoubtedly a different class feature (since it was clarified that both Weapon Training x and Armor Training x are considered separate class features).
Table variance man, it happens. Flagging after this, I'm done spamming.
master_marshmallow |
This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip.
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
Amrel |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But the prerequisite is the class level, not the feature. There is nothing to FAQ.
By that logic it would seem to me (unless I missed something) that the prerequisite for gaining an additional +1 is class level as well. This is because Armor training lists out the levels you gain the +1 at explicitly in addition to saying that you gain an extra +1 at every 4 levels (assuming the rules aren't contradicting themselves). But if that was the case then this item would do nothing, which we also all agree isn't right (I think).
Its true that the ability says at 7th level, and from earlier in rules text we know that the 7th level references levels in the class. So the ability says that at and after your fighter level is 7th, you can substitute AAT.
The item says "The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features."
If I'm treating my fighter level as 4 higher than normal for armor training (of which AAT is a part), then any time as a player I have to ask my self, "what level am I with regards to what this ability gives me?" the answer is my level + 4. If I'm third level, whenever I look at this ability I get to say that I'm 7th. There is no additional limiting text put onto that, it applies to all parts. Since neither the additional facet or the item differentiate between actual level and artificial level (it doesn't anywhere else in the rules either as far as I know) a part of the ability that starts working at fighter level 7 would apply.
If the writers didn't want it to apply they would have made Advanced Armor Training a totally separate feature like Spell Recall and improved Spell Recall, or like Bane and Greater Bane.
There is no rules on how this works because AAT didn't exist when the sash was created so there is no RAW.
I get where you're coming from, and at the table I would be ok with a DM saying either thing. But RAW encompasses all rules that currently exist and only considers chronological order when determining precedence.
For example, if some new rule book comes out with a new use for channel energy, you can't go back and say that an item or ability that granted you additional uses of channel doesn't apply because this new use didn't exist then. If you did that then it would be very difficult to build on the game at all. Instead you have to go with the knowledge that when new things come out, the people who write the rules have taken into account what already exists and have adjusted accordingly.
Does that always happen perfectly, no probably not, which is why the DM can decide if he feel's that it should be allowed. But I feel that people generally know that, and when they come to the rules forum they are looking for concrete answers. If they weren't then there's the general advice forum
Amrel |
Even if it's "not OP" (which is debatable), I highly doubt it was intended to work that way. It's designed to improve what you already have, not what you currently possess.
I wasn't saying that its not a good combo, I was just saying that you aren't getting it all for 4k. You're getting one of those things for 4k.
In this case dr/3 is definitely the most cost effective one since adamantine armor is expensive. But you can get a +1 to all saves for 1k with a cloak of resistance and a +1 to ac for 2k with an amulet of natural armor. Now you could argue that this bonus would stack with those if you already had them which does make it worth a bit more, but not by much, and especially considering if you were wearing heavy armor and were level 7 you probably picked the DR option anyway if you were worried about cost.
Amrel |
Alternate Class Features haven't been around since 3.5 and a ruling on this would give us the rules for similar situations in the future, should more be printed for the classes that have similar items.
A clarification should also tell us about how Bloodline Mutations work with the Robes, etc.
Yeah, I agree it would be nice to have something concrete, especially for organized play.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
master_marshmallow |
Amrel wrote:But RAW encompasses all rules that currently exist and only considers chronological order when determining precedence.We agree.
The thing is there is no RAW on this, you are making an interpretation what the rules mean to get your interpretation since there is no RAW.
RAW we have an example of another item which grants access to other class features earlier than expected.
It's function is identical to the Robes of Arcane Heritage because it has been clarified that Armor Training x, and Armor Training (x+1) are considered separate class features.
Darksol the Painbringer |
James Risner wrote:Amrel wrote:But RAW encompasses all rules that currently exist and only considers chronological order when determining precedence.We agree.
The thing is there is no RAW on this, you are making an interpretation what the rules mean to get your interpretation since there is no RAW.
RAW we have an example of another item which grants access to other class features earlier than expected.
It's function is identical to the Robes of Arcane Heritage because it has been clarified that Armor Training x, and Armor Training (x+1) are considered separate class features.
It improves the accessibility of a certain class feature, and that's because it specifically mentions that it improves accessibility.
The Sash makes no such clear distinction, and because the Sash was written well before Armor Training was introduced, it's safe to say that the Sash was never written with the assumption that it would let you choose an Advanced Armor Training option, so saying that the assumption is true because of splatbook content (which is equally as vague) is quite an absurd claim, even if it may very well be a possibility.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:James Risner wrote:Amrel wrote:But RAW encompasses all rules that currently exist and only considers chronological order when determining precedence.We agree.
The thing is there is no RAW on this, you are making an interpretation what the rules mean to get your interpretation since there is no RAW.
RAW we have an example of another item which grants access to other class features earlier than expected.
It's function is identical to the Robes of Arcane Heritage because it has been clarified that Armor Training x, and Armor Training (x+1) are considered separate class features.
It improves the accessibility of a certain class feature, and that's because it specifically mentions that it improves accessibility.
The Sash makes no such clear distinction, and because the Sash was written well before Armor Training was introduced, it's safe to say that the Sash was never written with the assumption that it would let you choose an Advanced Armor Training option, so saying that the assumption is true because of splatbook content (which is equally as vague) is quite an absurd claim, even if it may very well be a possibility.
Saying the opposite is equally absurd.
Chess Pwn |
Amrel wrote:Even if it's "not OP" (which is debatable), I highly doubt it was intended to work that way. It's designed to improve what you already have, not what you currently possess.Weirdo wrote:I'm not sure how the RAW should be read, but it does seem to make the item significantly better than it was intended to be.
I don't know if I agree, its true that AAT didn't exist when the item was created, so I guess by definition it makes it better than it was initially intended, but I don't see any AAT options that drastically change the players abilities if you got it earlier.
Weirdo wrote:Its true that he can get those things, but you're blowing it out a little bit. If the answer to the above question is yes, then the player gets one extra thing. You're either getting +1 AC, OR DR 3/-, OR +1 to will saves as an extra AAT with the sash. You can have all three, but you don't get them from the sash
If a 7th level fighter with Armour Specialization wears a Sash of the War Champion, he gets +1 AC for treating his fighter level as 11.
If he also gets to pick a new AAT as an 11th level fighter would, he can also take Armoured Juggernaut and get 1-3 points of DR/- depending on type of armour worn.
Bravery also increases from +2 to +3, which could mean an extra +1 to all will saves if the character has AWT (armed bravery).
+1 AC, DR 3/- in full plate, and +1 will saves is a really good deal for 4k at level 7.
So that means it doesn't give you full move speed in heavy armor right? Since that's not increasing what you already possess but not give you stuff you don't. Is this what you're saying?
Darksol the Painbringer |
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:So that means it doesn't give you full move speed in heavy armor right? Since that's not increasing what you already possess but not give you stuff you don't. Is this what you're saying?Amrel wrote:Even if it's "not OP" (which is debatable), I highly doubt it was intended to work that way. It's designed to improve what you already have, not what you currently possess.Weirdo wrote:I'm not sure how the RAW should be read, but it does seem to make the item significantly better than it was intended to be.
I don't know if I agree, its true that AAT didn't exist when the item was created, so I guess by definition it makes it better than it was initially intended, but I don't see any AAT options that drastically change the players abilities if you got it earlier.
Weirdo wrote:Its true that he can get those things, but you're blowing it out a little bit. If the answer to the above question is yes, then the player gets one extra thing. You're either getting +1 AC, OR DR 3/-, OR +1 to will saves as an extra AAT with the sash. You can have all three, but you don't get them from the sash
If a 7th level fighter with Armour Specialization wears a Sash of the War Champion, he gets +1 AC for treating his fighter level as 11.
If he also gets to pick a new AAT as an 11th level fighter would, he can also take Armoured Juggernaut and get 1-3 points of DR/- depending on type of armour worn.
Bravery also increases from +2 to +3, which could mean an extra +1 to all will saves if the character has AWT (armed bravery).
+1 AC, DR 3/- in full plate, and +1 will saves is a really good deal for 4k at level 7.
Yeah, I noticed that I worded that incorrectly. I'm just lazy to change it. (Plus, I can't now.)
What I meant to say is that it makes your existing abilities better and doesn't give you any extra abilities; case in point, 7th level Inquisitor with a Bane Baldric doesn't get Greater Bane (even though they're basically the same damn thing, except one is just a slight improvement over the existing feature, and otherwise uses the same exact mechanics and restrictions).
Things like Arcane Heritage Robes do give you extra abilities because they specifically state that you get new abilities as if you were 4 levels higher (and your level is increased when determining the effects of your new and existing abilities).
By a strict RAW reading, the Sash actually doesn't do anything, because Armor Training is technically separated into different "tiers" (I, II, III, and IV), which would make them their own class feature in and of itself. That being said, I'd say it was intended for the Sash to let a 3rd level Vanilla Fighter get all of the standard benefits of Armor Training II, because that's how the item was intended to function according to its design.
Back then, there was no Advanced Armor Training, so there never was any of these "what-if" questions or consequences that came to light, because either A. Fighters were too horrible to play except for those low-power campaigns (and therefore the item was never found, crafted, or purchased), or B. Tables which involved a fighter knew all of the benefits and restrictions of the item in question, so a thread discussing its function was never needed.
I'd like to think both answers apply here.
master_marshmallow |
The real issue here is Bane Baldric's ruling, had it not been clarified that it doesn't advance your character into having the next class feature, but rather augmenting the one you already have then there would no confusion as to how this item works.
If the item does allow access to AAT, I bet we can see an increase in price on the item.
Considering that Armor Training is actually a series of class features, it could be interpreted that it doesn't even grant access to a higher max DEX and lower ACP but given:
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
we can reasonably say that regardless of whether the item actually improves your access to class features, that the item will definitely enable full movement speed in heavy armor, as that is part of Armor Training 1.