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My daughter would like to play a Drakerider cavalier (rebuilding a still 1st level samurai). However, reading through there are several questions I find myself asking, even beyond questions of effectiveness versus a mount or other archetypes. The rules could do with some clarification.
1) Does the player or the GM run the drake? I presume the player but sometimes you need to make diplomacy/intimidate checks which generally only apply to NPCs. As far as I can tell there is no real special link between drake and charge. Can other characters and NPCS use diplomacy on the drake? What about when the Drake's charge is unconscious or dead?
2) What is the DC of the diplomacy or intimidate checks to convince the drake to fatigue itself or take major risks. What is a major risk? The only rules I can find are under the diplomacy and intimdate skills themselves.
Is any CR approriate combat considered a major risk? Do you need to take 1 minute (or a full round suggestion) to use diplomacy to convince it to fight or take a major risk? What attitude does the drake start at? Do you track it through scenerios?
3) Can you end up making the drake hostile/unfriendly through failed diplomacy checks or any use of intimidate checks.
4) Given they have Use Magic Device as a class skill and can speak, can they use wands/scrolls with UMD? In a clawed foot or held with a tail? Do they have prehensile tails (I'm guessing no)? Is UMD effectively not usable by them?
5) Is a saddle considered clothing and thus something they refuse to put on? Thus even if you could get to high enough level to ride them, you'd take a -5 penalty to ride?
6) Can they use slotless magic items, like ioun stones, since they don't wear them?
7) Can a Drake with flight carry someone in their feet claws as opposed to let them ride? What can a character do while being carried? Delay? Nothing? Anything you could do in a grapple?
8) Are drakes considered a quadruped for weight capacity? (I'm guessing not, but they do have 4 appendages, none of which are arms).
Is she going to see too much table variation on the drake to make it worthwhile to deal with in PFS?
that looks to be a third party archetype or class.
Third party material is not allowed in PFS.
If you're looking to see if any Paizo material is allowed note the book and page number it appears in, then refer to the appropriate area in Additional Resources.
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that looks to be a third party archetype or class.
Third party material is not allowed in PFS.
If you're looking to see if any Paizo material is allowed note the book and page number it appears in, then refer to the appropriate area in Additional Resources.
It's not third party -- it is from Legacy of Dragons, the newest Player Companion, and it *is* PFS legal.
This wonderful thread has information that may be relevant to you and your daughter.
Edit: It also may be a great place to post your questions if you don't get the attention you'd like here.
This wonderful thread has information that may be relevant to you and your daughter.
Edit: It also may be a great place to post your questions if you don't get the attention you'd like here.
While that is an excellent thread on animal companions, and I appreciate your help, in Legacy of Dragons, Drake companions are explicitly stated to *not* be animal companions, and their rules do not apply. For example, handle animal checks and tricks don't apply. They start at Int 4 and are dragon type, which would also complicate things.
They have their own progression chart, kinda like the eidolon for a summoner, but with some mistakes (they get an ability score increase at 15 HD for example).
The fact that they are not animal companions is part of my problem. There's no body of rules and clarifications built up around this class feature, specifically "Drake mount".
There is one paragraph describing the drake and how it is interacted with, and a list of things it arbitrarily won't do (like wear barding, armor or clothing items). Clothing items are not defined, so there is some grey area (ioun stones?).
I think they were trying to limit the magic item slots like animal companions, but instead of saying they can't wear them or benefit from them, they make it a role playing restriction and say they refuse to wear them (which I assume means you can put them on against their will while helpless or unconscious - or at high levels use dominate monster - or maybe even with sufficient intimidate, given that is how you can get NPCS to do things they don't want to do). Hence the question of who runs the drake, the player or the GM?
It then jumps into describing the mechanical features.
Even ignoring the parts where someone could push the intended boundaries, it's unclear if the drake even fights willingly, due to the wording. Is being a pathfinder on a mission a major risk to your life?
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My daughter would like to play a Drakerider cavalier (rebuilding a still 1st level samurai). However, reading through there are several questions I find myself asking, even beyond questions of effectiveness versus a mount or other archetypes. The rules could do with some clarification.
1) Does the player or the GM run the drake? I presume the player but sometimes you need to make diplomacy/intimidate checks which generally only apply to NPCs. As far as I can tell there is no real special link between drake and charge. Can other characters and NPCS use diplomacy on the drake? What about when the Drake's charge is unconscious or dead?
A drake has an Intelligence score above that of an animal. Like a familiar, the player runs the drake. You only need to convince a drake to fatigue itself or take major risks. You generally won't run into those situations in PFS, but if you do, use the Diplomacy DCs in the Core Rulebook. As your companion, other PCs can't diplomacy the drake without your (player) permission.
2) What is the DC of the diplomacy or intimidate checks to convince the drake to fatigue itself or take major risks. What is a major risk? The only rules I can find are under the diplomacy and intimdate skills themselves.
Yes, those are the rules to use. What constitutes major risk is discretionary. Your drake won't do anything you wouldn't do, won't sacrifice itself, and won't pick fights it can't reasonably win. Basically, treat the drake like a person, not an obedient animal.
Is any CR approriate combat considered a major risk? Do you need to take 1 minute (or a full round suggestion) to use diplomacy to convince it to fight or take a major risk? What attitude does the drake start at? Do you track it through scenerios?
CR appropriate is not a major risk. Requests only take a standard action. From the description, helpful. You can make most requests without a check, you only need one to convince it to put itself in peril. No need to track it, you shouldn't be changing it.
3) Can you end up making the drake hostile/unfriendly through failed diplomacy checks or any use of intimidate checks.
You aren't influencing attitude, so failure doesn't affect attitude. Hopefully you aren't threatening your drake with violence. I'd treat Intimidate as Diplomacy of another form, otherwise you would have negative consequences.
4) Given they have Use Magic Device as a class skill and can speak, can they use wands/scrolls with UMD? In a clawed foot or held with a tail? Do they have prehensile tails (I'm guessing no)? Is UMD effectively not usable by them?
There are other uses for UMD besides wands and scrolls. But yeah, UMD as a class skill is mostly a consequence of their dragon type and not a suggestion of ability or role.
5) Is a saddle considered clothing and thus something they refuse to put on? Thus even if you could get to high enough level to ride them, you'd take a -5 penalty to ride?
If they consent to be a mount, they consent to wear a saddle.
6) Can they use slotless magic items, like ioun stones, since they don't wear them?
Sure. They are even smart enough to activate them.
7) Can a Drake with flight carry someone in their feet claws as opposed to let them ride? What can a character do while being carried? Delay? Nothing? Anything you could do in a grapple?
8) Are drakes considered a quadruped for weight capacity? (I'm guessing not, but they do have 4...
I'd say no. They are described as dragons with only two legs.
Don't be afraid of table variation. Make reasonable choices, inform your GMs, outline how you read the rules, and have fun playing.
1) Does the player or the GM run the drake? I presume the player but sometimes you need to make diplomacy/intimidate checks which generally only apply to NPCs. As far as I can tell there is no real special link between drake and charge. Can other characters and NPCS use diplomacy on the drake? What about when the Drake's charge is unconscious or dead?
I have never seen a DM outright run an animal companion.
As for your drake, ultimate campaign gives this advice
Sentient Companions: A sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won't necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.
Keep in mind though this is a general practice. You may find that one dm but it will probably be rare.
2) What is the DC of the diplomacy or intimidate checks to convince the drake to fatigue itself or take major risks. What is a major risk? The only rules I can find are under the diplomacy and intimdate skills themselves.
Hopefully the drake is helpful to you (if not, i have to question WHY), so the diplomacy check is 0+ creature's Cha Modifier, +10 for dangerous aid.
Is any CR approriate combat considered a major risk?
Probably not as long as the cavalier and a few other party members are still up and fighting.
3) Can you end up making the drake hostile/unfriendly through failed diplomacy checks or any use of intimidate checks.
Probably. But you need to fail by 5 and the dcs are pretty easy.
Don't try to intimidate your loyal companion.
4) Given they have Use Magic Device as a class skill and can speak, can they use wands/scrolls with UMD? In a clawed foot or held with a tail? Do they have prehensile tails (I'm guessing no)? Is UMD effectively not usable by them?
Dragons are a body shape that can explicitly hold things and cast spells, and wands are the most forgiving magical items for what it takes to hold them.
To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
But PFS has some weird restrictions on who/what can use wands that people are still hammering out/asking for change.
5) Is a saddle considered clothing and thus something they refuse to put on? Thus even if you could get to high enough level to ride them, you'd take a -5 penalty to ride?
Probably not. I mean it is a cavalier companion.
6) Can they use slotless magic items, like ioun stones, since they don't wear them?
Yes. An int 3 animal companion can do so, your drake should find it easy.
7) Can a Drake with flight carry someone in their feet claws as opposed to let them ride?
What can a character do while being carried? Delay? Nothing? Anything you could do in a grapple?
Thats really the DM's call. You've kinda left the normal boundaries of the rules.
8) Are drakes considered a quadruped for weight capacity? (I'm guessing not, but they do have 4 appendages, none of which are arms).
Looking at the pretty picures it looks like they're two leggers. If carrying capacity is an issue, find a a way to get ant haul.
Is she going to see too much table variation on the drake to make it worthwhile to deal with in PFS?
I highly doubt it. Most DM's just let the player run with an animal companion and have it do what the player wants. There's even more reason to do that with a drake.
Definitely looks like a wand of mage armor would be a good investment for armor, since the drake is balanced a bit by refusing to wear any armor.
You will probably need to talk to people in your local area, try to get some consistency in how it will be handled. For a while, you are also going to want to show up early so that you can warn the GM about what your daughter has and give them a chance to read up on the archetype.
Make sure your daughter realizes that she can't ride the drake until she is 7th level. Even then, I'm not seeing how it can work. Assuming she is a small character, that requires the Drake to grow to size Medium. It looks to me like that doesn't happen until 9th level. Perhaps I've missed something?
I would expect there to be a fair amount of table variation.
On your questions:
1. Who runs it
I would run it the same way as animal companions. The player usually gets to run it, but the GM may override as appropriate. It starts with Int 4 -- much more intelligent than an animal but still far less than a typical Nagaji or Suli.
2. Diplomacy checks
I would use the DCs in the diplomacy skill, with the drake starting out at friendly. If it wasn't friendly, it wouldn't allow you to ride it.
Expect a lot of table variation here, but reading through it here is what I would try:
Starting at Friendly (DC 10):
+5 (DC 15) to ride it as a mount into normal combat (complicated aid)
+10 (DC 20) to go into that boss fight (dangerous aid), perhaps more if they are already injured.
3. Unfriendly
Friends can get made at each other. Yes, fail a diplomacy or intimidate check by enough and you will make it mad. You will have to find a way to get back into it's good graces after that.
The intimidate check is more likely to cause problems.
4. UMD
The picture on pg. 22 shows little clawed appendages on their wings. As you point out, they get UMD as a class skill. Be silly to give them the class skill and not allow them to use it.
I would allow them to UMD scrolls, wands, and most other objects that might need it.
5. Saddles
Unclear, and something that I think will cause a fair amount of variation. I would ask each GM before the game. Suggest two possibilities:
a) exotic saddle
b) -5 for bareback, but +2 for masterwork tool (straps?) to aid in riding a drake.
Buy both. Go with whatever each GM will accept.
6. Slotless items
An animal companion with IQ 3 can use Ioun Stones. I don't see any reason that a Drake would refuse.
I would still have it insist on only one magical item.
7. Carrying someone in claws
Ouch! I wouldn't want to be carried that way.
This is certainly one that you want to bring up with the GM before the game. One way I can think of to handle it is to treat the person carried as grappled, with all the effects that condition imposes. Perhaps someone else can suggest other alternatives.
8. Weight capacity
Once again I'm going to go by what the picture on pg. 22 shows. That drake doesn't look like it has the build of a quadruped, so I would go bipedal for carrying capacity
taking a look at the rules, it looks pretty contrived but they seem to be limited to one magic item worn/used. Probably an amulet of mighty fists.
Thanks for the responses and clarifications.
I'll definitely talk with people from the local playgroup the next time I see them, before she brings the character to a table.
Reasonable interpretations make it sound playable at least. I don't think it matters to her that it possiby won't be rideable in the character's career. Although she does seem sad it can only use its breath weapon once per day until 11th.
I'm guessing she'll treat it as a non-mountable animal companion/familiar. It can provide support and combat, but not mobility. So long as her power gaming dad doesn't talk about what ifs and extreme corner cases, she should be fine. :)
Too bad mage armor isn't on the magus spell list (character I've been playing with her samurai). As noted it seems to be the best buff for it.
There really isn't a way to be gently carried by claws... just ask any prey animal that's been grabbed by a hawk. The claw grab pretty much kills them outright.
Too bad mage armor isn't on the magus spell list (character I've been playing with her samurai). As noted it seems to be the best buff for it.
Buy the wand anyway. And a few potions. If you see a partially charged wand grab that too.
Most groups have someone that can turn it on, either because it's on their spell list or through Use magic device. If someone rolls a 1 before they crank it on with UMD, you just hand them another wand or glug a potion. If your magus has a spare trait pragmatic activator to use Int for UMD is a really good one.
Too bad mage armor isn't on the magus spell list (character I've been playing with her samurai). As noted it seems to be the best buff for it.
There is a Magus Arcana that would fix that. :)
Otherwise, get two wands of it. The second one is for when the first stops working that day.
Assuming you both point points into the UMD skill, one of your characters should be able to activate it.
A Magus Arcana for just one spell seems like a steep price though.
Good point on the multiple wands. Actually, with a trait, we could make decent rolls with 3 characters. Cavalier with dangerously curious, Drake, Magus. I could swap a trait out for pragmatic activator on the magus, going from -2 to +3 from ability scores.
Actually, dumping a feat or two into UMD on the drake might make it a decent wand spammer... (Must resist urge to design character totally for daughter...)
Is there such a thing as power gamers anonymous for pathfinder? :)
Actually, dumping a feat or two into UMD on the drake might make it a decent wand spammer...
Is there such a thing as power gamers anonymous for pathfinder? :)
I would hold off on putting resources into that until we get clarification if the drake can use wands or not.
<Frantically scrambles to find splat-book print-out he hasn't had a chance to read yet.>
Actually, dumping a feat or two into UMD on the drake might make it a decent wand spammer...
Is there such a thing as power gamers anonymous for pathfinder? :)
I would hold off on putting resources into that until we get clarification if the drake can use wands or not.
Doing some bestiary reading I've discovered at least Shadow drakes, a cold subtype drake in bestiary 4, have fully grasping tails as they can steal stuff with sleight of hand and even pick locks with their tails using disable device.
Similarly, Spire Drake's have Use Magic Device and are described as using magic items offensively or defensively as approriate.
So it looks like I was wrong in assuming the tails were not prehensile.
Although now I'm wondering, if you can pick locks with a tail, can you wield a weapon?
Do drakes get the abilities associated with their subtype they choose? Looking in the Bestiary I find:
Aether - Not defined
Air - Explicitly gets fly skill already from glide
Cold - Immunity to cold, vulnerable to fire
Earth - Earth creatures with a burrow speed have tremorsense. Although tremorsense says the range is defined in the Stat box, so presumably they do not get it or its range is 0 since it is undefined?
Fire - Immunity to fire, vulnerable to cold
Water - Can breath underwater, and do not need to make swim checks
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Hi
Thinking of Cavaliers Archetype with Drake Companion.
The problem I see is that 1st lvl Drake companions start as Tiny creatures, so unless you can play a Diminutive sized character, you can't ride them until at least 9th lvl, and then only if you're small!
Unless there is something I missed about the minimum size for a cavalier mount?
Thanks
Paul H
Hi
Thinking of Cavaliers Archetype with Drake Companion.
The problem I see is that 1st lvl Drake companions start as Tiny creatures, so unless you can play a Diminutive sized character, you can't ride them until at least 9th lvl, and then only if you're small!
Unless there is something I missed about the minimum size for a cavalier mount?
Thanks
Paul H
No, you're not missing anything. Read the archetype description. It tells you that people who imagine riding dragons into battle who become drake riders soon learn that it takes a lot longer and more effort than they thought. I.e. You need to level up your drake before you get to rise it.
EDIT: There is also a feat to allow same size rider/mount, but the name escapes me. It allows Small PCs to ride Small Mounts and Medium PCs to rise Medium Mounts.
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It is, conveniently, literally called Undersized Mount.
Note however that while the feat may allow you to ride it, the combination of its lowered size and lowered strength due to not having grown enough may cause it to become encumbered while carrying you.
Mount: The drake deigns to allow its charge to ride it, as long as she is at least one size category smaller than the
drake[/b]....
I would check with your GM before taking undersized mount. I would not allow a player to take it to ride a similar sized drake.
My argument: The PC is technically able to ride a same-sized drake. However the Drake does not want you to ride it. For all it cares go ride a pony if you want to ride something same-sized.