...using Weapon Trick (two-handed tricks) which allows this combination
So, wielding an actual, two-handed weapon
What would the best route to go?
I figured that perhaps a Dwarf Warpriest, with its increased base weapon damage, would be a good start.
Dwarf is for the Goblin-Cleaver line. But I'm not sure there are enough feats available to make it work with Warpriest.
iirc Fighter and Barbarian have archetypes that help wielding large weapons, not sure if that's useful here but it sounds promising.
Impact weapon property is definitely a thing, and so is Lunge.
Also this could work with cornugon smash+hurtful for a bit of extra damage, but that's not the main goal.
Goal is, of course, get really big and deal very big damage with a single swing hitting multiple enemies.
No 3rd parties, base races, assume 20 pb (or more, if necessary), no variant rules.
Any idea? How would you proceed?
A. be a druid.
B. Pick a form with one huge attack a round (like a trex)
C. Vital Strike with said form
D. ???
E. Profit
It must be a weapon.
First, druid doesn't fit the idea I have in my mind, like, not at all.
Second, natural weapons aren't compatible with "Weapon Trick: two handed tricks". I know All-Consuming swing exists, but I want something that won't hurt me back.
I was already aware of druids being a thing when I started this thread, however, having specifically mentioned that the request was about a wielded weapon, I was confindent that readers would understand the request.
While druid + vital strike is very popular, I believe trying to explore a different concept is a much more interesting mental excercise
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In some combination:
Large Bastard Sword
Effortless Lace
Impact enchantment
Bloodrager/Barbarian can also get Furious Finish and a cord of stubborn resolve. Bloodrager specifically can get blooded arcane strike and VMC Magus for the ability to do weird things with Spellstrike.
You can't Cleave and Vital Strike at the same time, for starters. I would be surprised if you come across something that lets you, and I would request its source, so that I could examine it for a possible character build. Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans.
Warpriest damage dice scaling and effects like the Impact Property will not stack due to Impact's wording. You'd need Lead Blades specifically, because it affects the character's damage with any weapon they wield (and their total damage dice) whereas the Impact Property applies to the weapon itself, which is replaced via the Warpriest feature. Same applies for Advanced Weapon Training for Fighters.
Titan Mauler Barbarians suck and usually have massive to-hit penalties. Also, when you are bigger, your to-hit is reduced as well. This is why static bonuses are better, because you don't sacrifice your to-hit, and you're still dealing just as much damage (and it's easier to monopolize).
There's also the matter of forgoing your remaining attacks just for increased damage dice, whereas a full attack would not only have the same net result, but also the same multiple of static bonuses as well.
Lunge only increases reach, not damage dice. Helpful, but not relevant.
Lastly, I'm surprised you think Natural Weapons aren't Weapons, even though it's in the name.
In my opinion, Weables has it right. Druids are 3/4 BAB (so you aren't losing much in terms of iteratives), have 9 levels of spellcasting (crappy list, but full spellcasters are always the best), can be a fairly powerful offensive character with the proper attributes, and plus has the best tools to optimize what you're looking for (scaling base and virtual size abilities, powerful damage dice, and so on).
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
yeah... some people here tend to read what you want, and then tell you to do something else that they think is better rather than tell you how to do the thing you want to do the best way they can think of.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can't Cleave and Vital Strike at the same time, for starters. I would be surprised if you come across something that lets you, and I would request its source, so that I could examine it for a possible character build. Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans.
he already addressed this...
Weapon Trick allows you to combine cleave and vital strike in a limited way (scroll down to two handed weapon tricks and look for Cleaving Smash). it helps when you actually read the OP.
You can't Cleave and Vital Strike at the same time, for starters. I would be surprised if you come across something that lets you, and I would request its source, so that I could examine it for a possible character build. Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans.
It was mentioned in OP. Actually, I mentioned 2 in this thread:
-weapon trick (read the two-handed section)
-all consuming swing
There's also the matter of forgoing your remaining attacks just for increased damage dice, whereas a full attack would not only have the same net result, but also the same multiple of static bonuses as well.
I know this much, This is why it's a challenge. I can make an optimized standardized warrior type, this just happens to be an interesting thing to attempt.
Lunge only increases reach, not damage dice. Helpful, but not relevant.
It's very relevant as it might help including more enemies in the attack, because we're using the goblin cleaver line, and we're presumably Large or better.
Lastly, I'm surprised you think Natural Weapons aren't Weapons, even though it's in the name.
Of cousre I know they're weapons, but you don't wield them, and, honestly, have you guys even bothered reading OP?
Thank you for the information about Impact wording making it incompatible with some effects, that bit was useful.
If you are going with 2Handed Weapon the Warpriest dosen't actually work all that well since the Sacred Damage dosn't outdo the base weapon damage until much higher level
On the other hand the Two-Hander archtype fighter gets to Double his Str bonus for damage at 3rd for single strikes or 7th for multiple strikes plus at 15th you increase the Power attack damage bonus. Plus as a fighter you get the Weapon Training options opened up for you and more feats. Yes the Warpriest can apply the enhancement bonuses but when you compair it to the Fighter's Weapon Training bonus it's about the same pace.
My problem with Fighter is that I don't know any way of making it reliably large (or bigger) size.
Becoming as big as possible serves two purposes: More reach (and thus, more potential targets at any given time) and better base damage.
So, we need some way to increase this dwarf reliably to at least large, that's to be prioritized I believe (correct me if I'm wrong)
By cheesing a bastard sword/impacting/lace I think you can get up to huge for damage dice, though your reach won't change.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Juggernaut's Pauldrons
In some combination:
Large Bastard Sword
Effortless Lace
Impact enchantmentBloodrager/Barbarian can also get Furious Finish and a cord of stubborn resolve. Bloodrager specifically can get blooded arcane strike and VMC Magus for the ability to do weird things with Spellstrike.
This sounds very interesting actually.
Just a question:
Effortless Lace only works when you're wielding a weapon appropriate for your size, so how are we going to solve that?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would go with Bloodrager (abberant bloodline) instead of Warpriest. Get a weapon with big damage dice and you should be fine. You can cast (and use wands of) Enlarge Person & Longarm, and gain free reach.
For a weapon, if you stay dwarf you can get a Dwarven Longaxe for 2d6 damage+reach. Half Elf could also pick it up. Otherwise, Earthbreaker, Greataxe, or Bastard Sword shenanigans can work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What are your teammates playing? If you can count on one of them for Enlarge Person (spell or wand), it would save character resources.
However, if you're going Warpriest for the Growth Blessing, then I think Two-Handed Fighter with a single level dip in Cleric (with the growth domain) is more efficient (plus, depending on the deity, you could get the travel domain to boost your speed).
Another alternative that takes 4 levels instead of 1 but gives you rage is Abyssal Bloodrager.
What are your teammates playing? If you can count on one of them for Enlarge Person (spell or wand), it would save character resources.
Nothing, actually. This is for research purposes, I'm basically preparing for the future.
However, someday, it will see the light :)
Dwarf Druid is actually pretty good, and will get you access to the feats you need and the size monopolization you want, via Wild Shape. Certain archetypes will give you access to better, and more appropriate forms, such as the Goliath Druid (which is actually pretty good, since it gives you Enlarge Person starting out).
You'll also get access to a Domain (Destruction is really good, especially if you're using a Scythe, the 8th level ability to automatically confirm critical threats for yourself and your allies is huge), or a Dinosaur/Megafauna Animal Companion. Since you plan to be a Cleave fanatic, I suggest the Destruction Domain.
You don't get much in the way of proficiencies, but the Scythe is still their most impressive weapon, and certainly nothing to balk at.
You can do more damage with a focus on Natural Weapons, since spells like Strong Jaw will give you double the benefits of Lead Blades, but if you feel that Manufactured Weapons are what you have to use, then I can only suggest a Goliath Druid (which actually fits in well with a Dwarf's training against Giants, since they get more defensive benefits against Giants), since you can utilize Size and Wildshape without having to worry about what weapon you're using (since it would scale in size with you).
Attributes should be as follows:
Strength 17
Dexterity 13
Constitution 16 (14 + 2)
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 16 (14 + 2)
Charisma 5 (7 - 2)
I'd consider a level-dip in Fighter for the bonus feat(s), and for the initial BAB to fulfill necessary requirements, so you aren't delaying stuff way too much; it delays your Druid abilities, but you'll still be able to pull off all your cool stuff, just later than you normally can. You can also specialize in any Martial Weapon of your choice, such as a Nodachi, which has strong damage dice, and an 18-20/X2 modifier.
With that said, your feats should be as follows if you do:
1. Power Attack, Cleave
3. Goblin Cleaver
5. Great Cleave
7. Orc Hewer
9. Vital Strike
11. Weapon Trick (Cleaving Smash)
13. Giant Killer
15. Improved Vital Strike
17. Devastating Strike
19. Improved Devastating Strike
Maybe be an Avenger Vigilante so that you can use Vital Punishment to Vital Strike on your opportunity attacks?
With that said, your feats should be as follows if you do:
1. Power Attack, Cleave
3. Goblin Cleaver
5. Great Cleave
7. Orc Hewer
9. Vital Strike
11. Weapon Trick (Cleaving Smash)
13. Giant Killer
15. Improved Vital Strike
17. Devastating Strike
19. Improved Devastating Strike
that weapon trick requires Improved Vital Strike.
In some combination:
Large Bastard Sword
Effortless Lace
Impact enchantmentBloodrager/Barbarian can also get Furious Finish and a cord of stubborn resolve. Bloodrager specifically can get blooded arcane strike and VMC Magus for the ability to do weird things with Spellstrike.
This sounds very interesting actually.
Just a question:
Effortless Lace only works when you're wielding a weapon appropriate for your size, so how are we going to solve that?
?
It reduces the size penalty by 2
You can play a half-giant for the ability to use weapons one size larger than he is without penalty (powerful build) to get more dice for VS. Maybe there are other races with that around, but I cannot think of one.
You can play a half-giant for the ability to use weapons one size larger than he is without penalty (powerful build) to get more dice for VS. Maybe there are other races with that around, but I cannot think of one.
3rd party
My problem with Fighter is that I don't know any way of making it reliably large (or bigger) size.
Becoming as big as possible serves two purposes: More reach (and thus, more potential targets at any given time) and better base damage.
So, we need some way to increase this dwarf reliably to at least large, that's to be prioritized I believe (correct me if I'm wrong)
It is coming up weirdly often today but Tiefling with Oversized Limbs would let you skip a step in the size increase. This might help too if it is allowed.
He's 0 for 2 now. Come on son! Click the links!that weapon trick requires Improved Vital Strike.With that said, your feats should be as follows if you do:
1. Power Attack, Cleave
3. Goblin Cleaver
5. Great Cleave
7. Orc Hewer
9. Vital Strike
11. Weapon Trick (Cleaving Smash)
13. Giant Killer
15. Improved Vital Strike
17. Devastating Strike
19. Improved Devastating Strike
So I underestimated the feat pre-requisites. It happens. Not my fault they made the requirements so steep. Plus, this wasn't a thing until, like, just now. I'm not a part of this hipster mainstream stuff, so...
All this tells me is that 3/4 BAB classes will not work for his concept, because all of his feats require full BAB just to make it work, as well as bonus feats.
Which means the biggest source of maximizing damage dice, improving his size reliably, without taking in-combat time or resources to utilize, goes down the toilet, because his feat pre-requisites for BAB are too damn high.
I mean, I don't think he can have both the ridiculous damage dice attacks and the ability to utilize cleave in conjunction without sacrificing one or the other, much less the option to make his size comparable to enemies (so he can auto-cleave them).
If he absolutely wants to utilize Cleave with Greater Vital Strike, he'll only be able to do, at best, 9D8+Static Modifiers per target, and that's incurring some to-hit penalties and such for Large Bastard Sword. Which isn't too bad, especially if he can manage powerful static modifiers. But a truly dedicated full-attacker, using the same weapon and abilities, will easily out-damage him every round.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Greater Trip + Felling Smash pairs nicely with Vital Strike to increase your Vital Strike harvest.
Worshipping Gorum grants the ability to use Vital Strike with a charge or attack of opportunity (Gorum's Swordsmanship from weaponmaster's), so Felling Smash can grant a double Vital Strike.
The Living Monolith prestige class is a pretty cool way to grab increased size.
Worshipping Gorum grants the ability to use Vital Strike with a charge or attack of opportunity (Gorum's Swordsmanship from weaponmaster's), so Felling Smash can grant a double Vital Strike
This is the kind of trick I was looking for.
Lots of good insights so far, I start smelling potential for an atypical but decent build
Goliath Druid to wild shape into huge giants / monstrous humanoids.
Hate to be a damper, but you can't use Great Cleave with Vital Strike even with Weapon Trick as Great Cleave and Cleave are separate, yet similar, actions in combat.
Also, you might go Monk of the Four Winds so you can make multiple Cleave/Vital Strikes in 1 round. But only at 12th level or higher. If 8 recall, 15 levels of Monk and 5 levels of a full BAB class will qualify for Greater Vital Strike.
Well if you're going dwarf you should use a dorn dergar. Dorn Dergar Master lets you use dorn dergars one handed which in turn allows you to use oversized ones in two hands (unless you are in thaX's camp). You might also consider Darting Viper
feats to take (sort of in level order, this is off a fighter who also has some TWF feats in there that i've omitted):
The fighter i got this from has reliable access to enlarge person so he hasn't taken Orc Hewer yet, but you might want to if you don't have the same level of access. He also has reliable access to lead blades, so his weapon dice are + 3 sizes above normal, although only one of the increases is an actual size increase(DD master, enlarge person, lead blades).
This build lets you hit everything in your 20' range once per turn (plus AoO if you put dex in), and once you get surprise follow through/improved/greater they are denied dex to ac after the first hit. I'm not sure how you would vital strike on top of it but if you can find some way to do it that can only be better lol.
Bestial Leaper (Ex): While raging, the barbarian can take a move action to move and can take her normal standard action at any point during the move. A barbarian must have the raging leaper rage power and be at least 6th level before selecting this rage power.
This basically gives you a spring attack that works with vital strike.
Abyssal Bloodrager gets you Enlarge Person.
Demonic Bulk (Su): At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren't humanoid.
With a large bastard sword with impact I think you would have 4d8 base damage while enlarged.
Am I misreading this, or does Natural Attack Ranger not give specification on if the player is required to take a Weapon Focus for Natural Weapons?
1 Level Titan Fighter Archetype for the Fighter class lets you use 2h weapons at -4 to hit. 2 levela if you want the extra feat.
10 Levels in Ranger (Natural Attack Build). Level two gain Weapon Focus. Level 6 get Vital Strike. Level 10 get Imp. Vital Strike as bonus feats.
Large Greataxe or Greatsword for 3d6 damage. Increase that with Lead Blades and Impact, along with other possibly other toys you can play with your size.
Racial Heritage lets you get Drawf Feats, but you might just want to be Dwarf instead.
I have been toying around with a Vital Strike cocnept for a while. My friend likes Dicegams and out team needed a front line damage dealer, thank you for the Weapon Trick feat. It leads to a lot of interesting concepts.