So, what if I decide to play as a Hobgoblin?


Ironfang Invasion

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Everybody's been talking about hobgoblins, but what about goblins?

Canon-wise, they're the bullied foot-stools of the Hobgoblins, so would they be appropriate -- perhaps one grew a spine or had greatness thrust upon them?

Does the equation change for goblins depending on whether they're hobby or not?

Depends on if goblins are also a major antagonist in the first AP volume. If they are not I wouldn't have an issue. In fact an escaped slave goblin sounds like an awesome potential character.

Again pretty much all of this thread is super speculative as far as what is or isn't appropriate. Until we have the first few volumes we can only guess on what sort of character concepts would be awesome and what ones either would be distracting or ineffective.


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Tangent101 wrote:

Actually? For the setting of Golarion there is a lot suggesting that Drow are in fact Always Evil.

Case in point? This is from the first two paragraphs describing the NPC Shensen... who was born drow, but was reincarnated as an aquatic half-elf.

Quote:

When a group of adventurers encountered a small band of drow in the Scar Thicket of Cheliax’s Whisperwood, a furious battle ensued. The only survivor of the battle was a Keleshite druid of Sarenrae named Izorah, and as she sorted through the bloody aftermath, she was mortified to discover the dark elves had among them a young drow child who had perished in the fiery magic Izorah’s group had used. Overwhelmed with grief for her part in the child’s death, Izorah used reincarnate to give the child a second chance at life, restoring her in the form of an aquatic half-elf and naming her Shensen. Izorah then retired from the adventuring life to raise Shensen as her own daughter.

Freed of her drow lineage both physically and spiritually, Shensen grew up a devout worshiper of Sarenrae.

(The rest of this has been snipped as superfluous but can be found "A Song of Silver.")

{. . .}

Again, not an example that can prove the point you are trying to make. Just by the statistics of the Reincarnate spell, the subject of the spell is most likely to come back as something different from what they were, no matter what they were originally. And Drow isn't even on the table of Reincarnation results at all, unless you get 100 Other (GM's choice) . . . Although for that matter, the same is true of Aquatic Elf; in any case, you need a Wish or Miracle to restore a Reincarnated creature to its old form, unless it gets really lucky. (That table is weird anyway -- it has Bugbear and Goblin, but not Hobgoblin . . . .)


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Crystal Frasier wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
Seriously. Paizo has said "hobgoblins are not appropriate" and we have a player coming up with a Paladin Hobgoblin to "prove" that they could do this. And it's not for a roleplaying challenge. As Cap (I believe) pointed out, it's because they want to be the focal point of attention in the campaign. They want to be that Special Snowflake.

You're misrepresenting what I said to insult a player.

I said the campaign is not built with a hobgoblin player in mind, and in the default assumption for the world it would be difficult, because hobgoblins are violent conquerors, slavers, and (at the worst of times) cannibals. In canon, they have a cruel, militaristic society that passes on that cycle of abuse to each new generation by killing off children who aren't strong enough or ruthless enough to endure.

But no canon survives first contact with the home table. In your home game you're welcome to play whatever you, your GM, and your fellow players find entertaining. You can have hobgoblins in your homegame act like any of the core races, with some good and some bad.

If you want to play a hobgoblin in this AP, it will require additional work on your GM's part. that is my only feedback. Let people enjoy their game.

Crystal, thank you very much for coming here to comment.

I understand that a Hobgoblin character would pose a challenge to the player and the GM, but in your opinion: if said Hobgoblin was consistently good and lawful in his beliefs and actions, would he still be subject to extreme suspicion and outright racial violence from villagers, soldiers, and other NPCs?

Silver Crusade

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Axial wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
Seriously. Paizo has said "hobgoblins are not appropriate" and we have a player coming up with a Paladin Hobgoblin to "prove" that they could do this. And it's not for a roleplaying challenge. As Cap (I believe) pointed out, it's because they want to be the focal point of attention in the campaign. They want to be that Special Snowflake.

You're misrepresenting what I said to insult a player.

I said the campaign is not built with a hobgoblin player in mind, and in the default assumption for the world it would be difficult, because hobgoblins are violent conquerors, slavers, and (at the worst of times) cannibals. In canon, they have a cruel, militaristic society that passes on that cycle of abuse to each new generation by killing off children who aren't strong enough or ruthless enough to endure.

But no canon survives first contact with the home table. In your home game you're welcome to play whatever you, your GM, and your fellow players find entertaining. You can have hobgoblins in your homegame act like any of the core races, with some good and some bad.

If you want to play a hobgoblin in this AP, it will require additional work on your GM's part. that is my only feedback. Let people enjoy their game.

Crystal, thank you very much for coming here to comment.

I understand that a Hobgoblin character would pose a challenge to the player and the GM, but in your opinion: if said Hobgoblin was consistently good and lawful in his beliefs and actions, would he still be subject to extreme suspicion and outright racial violence from villagers, soldiers, and other NPCs?

... you kinda don't get how racism works, do you?


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Just want Crystal's word on whether Hobgoblin=getting attacked by town NPCs.

I'm kinda over it, anyway, I just wanted to hear Crystal's input. The lack of feats/traits/plot hooks and the constant time sink are what made me drop the idea.

Now, as for a little goblin...that might be interesting.

Silver Crusade

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Axial wrote:
The lack of feats/traits/plot hooks and the constant time sink are what made me drop the idea.

It is highly likely that this will be remedied once we, ya'know, actually get close to the AP launching.

Liberty's Edge Developer

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Axial wrote:

Just want Crystal's word on whether Hobgoblin=getting attacked by town NPCs.

I'm kinda over it, anyway, I just wanted to hear Crystal's input. The lack of feats/traits/plot hooks and the constant time sink are what made me drop the idea.

Now, as for a little goblin...that might be interesting.

I do not exist as the developer to rubber-stamp anyone's character concepts

In your home game you're welcome to play whatever you, your GM, and your fellow players find entertaining. You can have hobgoblins in your homegame act like any of the core races, with some good and some bad. If you want to play a hobgoblin in this AP, it will require additional work on your GM's part.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

Actually? For the setting of Golarion there is a lot suggesting that Drow are in fact Always Evil.

Case in point? This is from the first two paragraphs describing the NPC Shensen... who was born drow, but was reincarnated as an aquatic half-elf.

Quote:

When a group of adventurers encountered a small band of drow in the Scar Thicket of Cheliax’s Whisperwood, a furious battle ensued. The only survivor of the battle was a Keleshite druid of Sarenrae named Izorah, and as she sorted through the bloody aftermath, she was mortified to discover the dark elves had among them a young drow child who had perished in the fiery magic Izorah’s group had used. Overwhelmed with grief for her part in the child’s death, Izorah used reincarnate to give the child a second chance at life, restoring her in the form of an aquatic half-elf and naming her Shensen. Izorah then retired from the adventuring life to raise Shensen as her own daughter.

Freed of her drow lineage both physically and spiritually, Shensen grew up a devout worshiper of Sarenrae.

(The rest of this has been snipped as superfluous but can be found "A Song of Silver.")

{. . .}

Again, not an example that can prove the point you are trying to make. Just by the statistics of the Reincarnate spell, the subject of the spell is most likely to come back as something different from what they were, no matter what they were originally. And Drow isn't even on the table of Reincarnation results at all, unless you get 100 Other (GM's choice) . . . Although for that matter, the same is true of Aquatic Elf; in any case, you need a Wish or Miracle to restore a Reincarnated creature to its old form, unless it gets really lucky. (That table is weird anyway -- it has Bugbear and Goblin, but not Hobgoblin . . . .)

Technically, the roll of 100—Other (GM's Choice) —helps out there, but the fact that the Core Rulebook's reincarnation table is imported directly from D&D and wasn't altered/adjusted to make sense for Golarion is something I was finally able to fix: see page 193 of Inner Sea Races.

THAT SAID: Drow are not always evil in Golarion, but they are indeed ALMOST always evil. I'm pretty sure we've not published a good drow yet, and I think we've only published one chaotic neutral one in the past decade or so. Mostly because we're trying to set our drow up as separate from the Forgotten Realms drow—we're skewing very much to the Greyhawk drow model, I suppose.

There's room for non-evil and even good drow in the game though. Up to you. As Crystal said above, what happens in your game is up to you, not us, and in fact the ability of a GM to adjust a game to fit her/his table and interests is one of the immense strengths of tabletop RPGs. Embrace it! Don't fear it!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Axial wrote:

Just want Crystal's word on whether Hobgoblin=getting attacked by town NPCs.

I'm kinda over it, anyway, I just wanted to hear Crystal's input. The lack of feats/traits/plot hooks and the constant time sink are what made me drop the idea.

Now, as for a little goblin...that might be interesting.

I do not exist as the developer to rubber-stamp anyone's character concepts

In your home game you're welcome to play whatever you, your GM, and your fellow players find entertaining. You can have hobgoblins in your homegame act like any of the core races, with some good and some bad. If you want to play a hobgoblin in this AP, it will require additional work on your GM's part.

*waves the Crystal Fanclub banner furiously*

Dark Archive

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Axial wrote:


Now, as for a little goblin...that might be interesting.

DOOOOO EEETTTTTTTTTT!!!!!


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Yes Rule #0, The GM has the right to change any rule to fit their game, players or setting.

MDC


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
As far as I know the player guides, I am pretty sure the Ironfang Invasion one will also cover hobgobbo as PC race.

Exactly what part of Paizo's statements is making you believe that?

Crystal Frasier wrote:

I said the campaign is not built with a hobgoblin player in mind...

If you want to play a hobgoblin in this AP, it will require additional work on your GM's part.
James Jacobs wrote:
We're still quite a ways out from the Player's Guide for Ironfang Invasion, but I really can't imagine us suggesting that a hobgoblin PC is appropriate for the AP. In fact, I suspect we'll go out of our way to point out how INAPPROPRIATE such a choice is. A hobgoblin PC is, in many ways, a better choice for EVERY OTHER AP we've published than it is for Ironfang Invasion.


The OP's character concept sounds awesome for a computer RPG version of II or a one GM, one player campaign. As the other posts indicate, the problem arises in a multi-player tabletop or VTT game - the "special snowflake" character will dominate the screen time making for a frustrating experience for others.

I think if you were going to have a hobgoblin PC in a multi-player game of II, then the most workable approach would be that *every* PC is a hobgoblin. That way all the players get to experience the (probably fascinating) story of racism, prejudice and "being an outcast but still trying to do the right thing" that a "good hobgoblin" character concept would bring to II. It could actually be a very fun and intriguing game and no one is particularly set up to be a spotlight hog because everyone gets the spotlight.

And if the player who first suggested being a hobgoblin loses interest once everyone is planning to get in on the action, you know they were actually focused on being a "proud nail" rather than interested in "the role playing opportunities".

Dark Archive

Axial wrote:

Suppose I roll up a Hobgoblin PC for this campaign. What would that entail?

I recall that Second Darkness strongly discourages and all but forbids players to play as Drow. This is understandable, given the Drow's origins and their secrecy in the Pathfinder campaign setting. However, while Hobgoblins are almost universally Lawful Evil, they are not bound to evil in the same way that (setting-wise) Drow are.

Thus, one could play as a Hobgoblin in Ironfang Invasion; most plausibly Lawful Neutral or maybe even Lawful Good. He or she could be a defector from the Ironfang Legion or an exile from it. Potential for amusing Star Wars "Traitor!" meme references aside, it could prove to be an interesting option.

Does the AP discourage playing a Hobgoblin? Is there a sidebar explaining why you shouldn't play one or what you should take into consideration if you do?

What are the others playing in the gaming group? What does you Director say? Hob-Goblins eat people generally, so if I was I Director I would say now to you playing this race but I would insist it follow a evil Alignment and take the relevant outcomes from towns ie anti HobGob sentiment. I had a party a long while back, one of the hero's was sick with lycanth & we couldn't take him into any village as they would try to kill him, good where wolf front line fighter but.


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Quandary wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
As far as I know the player guides, I am pretty sure the Ironfang Invasion one will also cover hobgobbo as PC race.

Exactly what part of Paizo's statements is making you believe that?

Crystal Frasier wrote:

I said the campaign is not built with a hobgoblin player in mind...

If you want to play a hobgoblin in this AP, it will require additional work on your GM's part.
James Jacobs wrote:
We're still quite a ways out from the Player's Guide for Ironfang Invasion, but I really can't imagine us suggesting that a hobgoblin PC is appropriate for the AP. In fact, I suspect we'll go out of our way to point out how INAPPROPRIATE such a choice is. A hobgoblin PC is, in many ways, a better choice for EVERY OTHER AP we've published than it is for Ironfang Invasion.

Ah, wording was probably misleading. I meant covering the topic hobgobbo as PC race, not how to play them there. Well, I wouldn't mind to see hints for the latter, but it already helps if the guide puts the finger on an upcoming problem.

Shadow Lodge

SheepishEidolon wrote:
Ah, wording was probably misleading. I meant covering the topic hobgobbo as PC race, not how to play them there. Well, I wouldn't mind to see hints for the latter, but it already helps if the guide puts the finger on an upcoming problem.

So a backmatter article? Seems likely, especially if hobgoblins haven't been covered in AP backmatter before (I don't think they have, but I don't own all the AP volumes and can't check) and with the Journal cancellation freeing up space.

Liberty's Edge

I got the chance to play a Hill Giant in Giantslayer, from Rite Publishing's fantastic In the Company of Giants book and it made for a fantastic experience. Sure it added work to my GM but she and I had talked about it ahead of time and I managed to get her pretty excited for the possibilities it entailed. Thing about playing these RPGs, no matter your race your an exceptional representative of that race. So the idea that you could be an exceptional hobgoblin who goes against the societal momentum is a recipe for an interesting story, if your GM is on board to tell it. My exceptional Hill Giant, who I played very much as the gentle giant type, added a lot of depth to the game as I was able to take the position of the insider who rebelled against the BBEGs. Ultimately, so long as you have a good story to tell, and a GM willing to help tell it, I say go on with your Hobgobby self!

Shadow Lodge

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J-Bone wrote:
Thing about playing these RPGs, no matter your race your an exceptional representative of that race.

Something something power fantasy . . .


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J-Bone wrote:
I got the chance to play a Hill Giant in Giantslayer, from Rite Publishing's fantastic In the Company of Giants book and it made for a fantastic experience. Sure it added work to my GM but she and I had talked about it ahead of time and I managed to get her pretty excited for the possibilities it entailed. Thing about playing these RPGs, no matter your race your an exceptional representative of that race. So the idea that you could be an exceptional hobgoblin who goes against the societal momentum is a recipe for an interesting story, if your GM is on board to tell it. My exceptional Hill Giant, who I played very much as the gentle giant type, added a lot of depth to the game as I was able to take the position of the insider who rebelled against the BBEGs. Ultimately, so long as you have a good story to tell, and a GM willing to help tell it, I say go on with your Hobgobby self!

It can certainly work - I remember tbug's awesome game reports of RotRL with an all goblin party. Nonetheless, it's also worth acknowledging that you're changing the assumptions of the AP pretty significantly.

As such, it's more important to give the DM and other players an opportunity to discuss the issue ahead of time, the further one strays from whatever your group's norms are.


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I like that idea. I think it's cool that the party contained a Hill Giant...what better way to fight giants then with one of your own?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bruno2 wrote:
Hob-Goblins eat people generally, [...]

No, they don't. At least not in this setting.


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Axial wrote:
I like that idea. I think it's cool that the party contained a Hill Giant...what better way to fight giants then with one of your own?

Answer: a Dwarf with a Dwarven Dorn-Derger.

Liberty's Edge

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Steve Geddes wrote:
J-Bone wrote:
I got the chance to play a Hill Giant in Giantslayer, from Rite Publishing's fantastic In the Company of Giants book and it made for a fantastic experience. Sure it added work to my GM but she and I had talked about it ahead of time and I managed to get her pretty excited for the possibilities it entailed. Thing about playing these RPGs, no matter your race your an exceptional representative of that race. So the idea that you could be an exceptional hobgoblin who goes against the societal momentum is a recipe for an interesting story, if your GM is on board to tell it. My exceptional Hill Giant, who I played very much as the gentle giant type, added a lot of depth to the game as I was able to take the position of the insider who rebelled against the BBEGs. Ultimately, so long as you have a good story to tell, and a GM willing to help tell it, I say go on with your Hobgobby self!

It can certainly work - I remember tbug's awesome game reports of RotRL with an all goblin party. Nonetheless, it's also worth acknowledging that you're changing the assumptions of the AP pretty significantly.

As such, it's more important to give the DM and other players an opportunity to discuss the issue ahead of time, the further one strays from whatever your group's norms are.

Which is exactly what went down between the GM and I. At the end of the day, our story was told and it was AWESOME!


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One thing I have learned in my many years of gaming is that one thing may work for one group but destroy another.
So while the Hill Giant PC in Giant Slayer worked in one group with a GM in most others it probably would not.
The second is gaming is supposed to be fun and fun can be described in many different ways to many different people.
So have at it with your ideas but realize that it may cause huge problems and many not work or be allowed if you go to another group.

The other main advice I would have is if it was me I as the GM would want to have the entire AP to look at and analyze before I wold let a PC do something like this. But then again my gaming style is not everyone else's either.
MDC


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I've had some pretty off the wall characters in my campaigns, and I've never felt overt racism is something I really need to explore, so honestly, if someone came up with a Hobgoblin Paladin, my biggest concern would be the Paladin aspect of it. :-D

Otherwise bring me your Catfolk, Vishkanya, Ghoran, Hobgoblin, or Gaithlan, I'll find a place for it. :-)


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I was running the first module in the Eberron CS book a few years back, the intro. I told people no evil characters or no characters of evil gods. What does a guy do because he liked one of the granted domain powers of the god of murder? Makes one anyway. The first encounter was the first and the last of that game.

Community Manager

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Removed some posts and their responses after further review. Positive feedback is as helpful as an honest critique—both are valid and necessary to grow as a writer, developer, and human. Please take a moment to revisit the Community Guidelines, thank you!


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*Waves Lilith Cookie Baking Club Banner*

The Exchange

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Steve Geddes wrote:
it's also worth acknowledging that you're changing the assumptions of the AP pretty significantly.

This, and you're also probably changing the setting's assumptions. I've had my share of problems myself with players who like to play against those assumptions as long as I stressed the importance of those assumptions. Then, I've run games where those assumptions where kinda created by playing, and in those kind of games, the problems vanished.

Today, I differentiate between players, who like to play against stereotypes and players of the special snowflake variety. From what I got from this thread, Axial seems to belong in the first category, so I probably wouldn't have any problems with this, even if it meant additional work.

I have to say though, that I don't use the APs or other published adventures as written very much. It's more that I use an adventure's or AP's premise and see what happens if the player characters interact with it (and most of the time, I use those adventures not in the setting, for which they were written anyways). So if an adventure assumes that you don't play option X, but a player expresses the wish to play X anyways, we can make it happen most of the time.

Now if the player is a spotlight hogger, I won't stop him from spotlight hogging by forbidding him to play a certain character, so I'll have to deal with his behavior anyways.

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