Advice on Cleric for a 3 player Carrion Crown party


Advice

Sovereign Court

Although it is a long while away, I'll be participating in a 3 player party for Carrion Crown. The other two players will be, as far as I know, a Halfling Rogue and a Human Ranger. I've had a lot of success in playing Clerics in the past (and had a lot of fun as well), so I volunteered to play one again. I decided on a Cleric of Iomedae, which I think will be fun and flavourful.

My first instinct was to dump Charisma, and go along with a support build that can enter into melee when needed. However, given what I've read about Carrion Crown, it would appear channeling may be useful in dealing with undead, and maybe haunts.

Then, I thought about dumping Intelligence, and having some Charisma to be able to channel. However, I'd probably be the one to need to make some Knowledge checks, which I hear is kind of important.

So, I'm kind of at a loss. How important is channel in this AP? 'Cause, if I can get away with it, I'm really leaning with an Oni-Spawn Tiefling Crusader Cleric of Iomedae, choosing the Good/Archon domain/subdomain (with the Pass For Human alternate racial trait; stupid Ustalavs with their xenophobia ;) ).

Any thoughts would certainly be appreciated.


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Hey, Arassuil:

Not too long ago I posted in a thread similar to this. There was another player asking for Cleric advice concerning the Carrion Crown Adventure Path. I've DMed this campaign before for my table. Haunts are introduced in this AP and they can be a real pain. Channeling is a very effective way of handling them along with the plethora of undead enemies you fight throughout each book, so here is what I recommended:

"I always thought it would be fun to play a cleric in Carrion Crown with the Glory Domain and the Sun Domain in conjunction with the Improved Channel feat and the Sacred Conduit trait. Glory grants you a +2 to your channel DC when channeling to harm undead and Sun doesn't allow undead to use their channel resistance against you (Sun also allows you to add your cleric level to your damage when you channel to harm undead!). Combine those two domains with the Improved Channel feat and the Sacred Conduit trait. You're now adding a +5 to your channel DC when channeling to harm undead, stripping them of their channel resistance, and you're adding your cleric level to damage. I admit it's a bit gimmicky, but it's just icing on the cleric cake as your progress through the campaign. It would just be one facet of a very utilitarian cleric."

My PCs found channeling to be very useful. The fun with this is that it's just a single feature of an overall well-rounded support Cleric, so it's not like you're a one-trick channeling pony. And, since it's a 3-person party, channeling to heal will be a definite boon. Also, yes, there are many xenophobes in this campaign, so it would be beneficial to have a Cleric with a decent Charisma score. :)

Hopefully this helps somewhat :3

Cheers, Mate!


Personally I would dump a physical stat. Probably dex. I like skill points too much to dump int (which is a personal thing)

Dex will affect your:
* missile fire (not a massive loss)
* AC -Just ware good armour
* Ref save- least important save and already sucks
* Initiative- This is the real loss
* Some skill which aren't important to you

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the feedback Dysphoria Blues and Haldrick.

I have a 20 point buy to work with. The best idea I have for a well rounded support Cleric was to work with the following stat array: 14,13,13,13,13,13. Be human, and have him be middle age (-1 to physical stats, +1 to mental stats). Put the racial modifier to STR.

I also took a drawback to grab the Rich Parents trait; mainly, because I heard this AP is kind of stingy with gold. I used it mainly to buy a bunch of mundane gear to help out the party.

Alexite Voralius, Chelaxian Cleric of Iomedae:

Alexite Voralius
Male Human (Chelaxian) Cleric of Iomedae 1
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +2
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, Touch 11, Flat-Footed 19 (+7 Armor, +2 Shield, +1 DEX)
HP 12 (1d8+4)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +4
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in Armor)
Melee Longsword +2 (1d8+2/19-20)
Ranged Javelin +1 (1d6+2)
Special Attacks Channel Positive Energy 5/day (DC 14, 1d6)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 1st; Concentration +3)
. . 1st—Bless, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith[D]
. . 0 (at will)—Guidance, Light, Stabilize
. . D Domain spell; Domains Glory [Heroism], Good [Archon]
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
STR 15, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 14
Base Attack +0; CMB +2; CMD 13
Feats Heavy Armor Proficiency, Toughness
Traits Divine Warrior, Fate's Favored, Rich Parents
Drawback Overprotective
Skills Diplomacy +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (Planes) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +6
Languages Celestial, Common, Varisian
SQ Touch of Glory, Touch of Good +1
Combat Gear Alchemical Silver Battle Aspergillum, Banded Mail, Cold Iron Dagger, Heavy Wooden Shield, 5 Javelins, Longsword, Sling with 20 Bullets, Spiked Gauntlet
Other Gear 8 weeks of Animal Feed, Backpack, Bedroll, Belt Pouch, Blanket, Block and Tackle, Carriage, Caltrops, Chalkboard with 5 sticks of Chalk, Cold Weather Outfit, Cooking Kit, Crowbar, Drill, Earplugs, Flint and Steel, Grappling Hook with 100 ft of knotted Hemp Rope, Grooming Kit, Hammock, 10 flasks of Holy Water, Inkpen with a vial of Ink, Journal, 2 Light Horses, bag of Marbles, Mess Kit, Miner's Pick, 5 sheets of Paper, 10 ft. Pole, 8 bags of Powdered Chalk, Sack, Saw, Sewing Needle, Shovel, Signal Whistle, Sledge, bar of Soap, Soldier's Uniform, Spell Component Pouch, Tabard (of the flag of Lastwall), 10 Torches, 1 week of Trail Rations, Trained Hireling (30 days service), 100 ft. of Twine, Waterskin, Whetstone, 2 Wooden Holy Symbols of Iomedae, 10 gp

I know that this AP will have undead, but it won't be exclusively undead. So I didn't want to go overboard with channeling.

Don't know if this build will be "good enough" in a 3 player Carrion Crown party though.

At higher levels, I was planning on grabbing some channel feats like Channeling Force, Bless Equipment line, to have the channel be useful in other ways. Maybe even Quick Draw and pick up a Quick Draw Shield?


I think your stat-buy is over by 2 points. Dual Talent Human can really help with MADness, though it has costs.

With your other teammates being what they are and a need to take CHA, you could look at going with a major group-buffing build with Evangelist Cleric, Flagbearer and a Banner of the Ancient Kings. By the time your party can get the banner, it'll work with Flagbearer and Inspire Courage to grant +5 to attack and damage, making the whole party very lethal in combat.

You can also go for a combat style where you carry the banner on a longspear in your offhand with a light shield, and wield a one-handed sword - with Quick Draw and a quickdraw light shield you can march around wielding the longspear banner with it's initiative bonus and a free hand for casting, and then instantly switch to weapon-and-shield in a fight while the banner is still granting it's combat benefits. Going one-handed isn't much of a loss when you're drawing huge damage bonuses anyhow.

When Evangelist hits level 7, you can cast a spell and activate Inspire Courage in a single round.

The Armor Expert trait allows using a mithral breastplate with only light armor proficiency, or you could grab a level of Fighter for heavy armor and better feat progress.


I would just add that being an evangelist cleric synergizes well with with the modest charisma as it gives you multiple uses of the same stat. Also makes you a bit better as a backup melee character with those good performance bonuses.


I'd actually not dump dex, go a little lighter on armour and try a dex stealth build. You've got a ranger and rogue. Why not try a scouting party group? Could be a blast.

Sovereign Court

BadBird wrote:
I think your stat-buy is over by 2 points. Dual Talent Human can really help with MADness, though it has costs.

Actually, it's a 20 point buy. I used a stat array of 14,13,13,13,13,13 and put racial bonus into STR. I also made him middle age for -1 to physical stats and +1 to mental stats, i.e.

STR: 14+2-1
DEX: 13-1
CON: 13-1
INT: 13+1
WIS: 13+1
CHA: 13+1

So it gives me an equivalent of a 22 point buy.

BadBird wrote:
With your other teammates being what they are and a need to take CHA, you could look at going with a major group-buffing build with Evangelist Cleric, Flagbearer and a Banner of the Ancient Kings. By the time your party can get the banner, it'll work with Flagbearer and Inspire Courage to grant +5 to attack and damage, making the whole party very lethal in combat.

This is an interesting idea. I didn't think about the Evangelist archetype. I'll have to seriously consider this.

BadBird wrote:

You can also go for a combat style where you carry the banner on a longspear in your offhand with a light shield, and wield a one-handed sword - with Quick Draw and a quickdraw light shield you can march around wielding the longspear banner with it's initiative bonus and a free hand for casting, and then instantly switch to weapon-and-shield in a fight while the banner is still granting it's combat benefits. Going one-handed isn't much of a loss when you're drawing huge damage bonuses anyhow.

When Evangelist hits level 7, you can cast a spell and activate Inspire Courage in a single round.

The Armor Expert trait allows using a mithral breastplate with only light armor proficiency, or you could grab a level of Fighter for heavy armor and better feat progress.

I could also try using the Shield Brace feat from Armor Master's handbook. If I can fit that many feats in.

Of course, I could also go with Elven Chain/Celestial Chain over Mithral Breastplate if I can't fit in Armor Expert in.

I'm going to have to play around with Evangelist and see what I come up with.

EDIT: Another possibility is to variant multiclass into Bard. I already got approval for variant multiclass, so I could go strait cleric and still get inspire courage. Although it'd eat half my feats, and function at cleric level - 4 for inspire courage. Not sure which is better. Plus, you know, Bardic Knowledge.


There's also Warpriest. They have fewer channel dice, but their channeling is completely based on wisdom, which is a huge help. They can do a fair deal of Cleric stuff, along with being very effective in a combat role. A Sacred Fist wielding a favored weapon with Crusader's Flurry or a Temple Champion going Two-Weapon Fighting with Smite are wrecking balls.


Cavall wrote:
I'd actually not dump dex, go a little lighter on armour and try a dex stealth build. You've got a ranger and rogue. Why not try a scouting party group? Could be a blast.

This is an intesting idea. It is seldom you get a chance to have a stealthy party.

Warpriest idea also works for this

The Exchange

I don't think you want to reduce your channel damage by using evangelist esp if you're probably a low level party's only chance of damaging incorpreals and haunts. Scouting when dealing with undead is crap. Quite some of them have unusual senses like lifesense etc. Don't bother. Besides you'll still need to murderhobo them. Undead tend to have decent perception checks as well.

Just stick to vanilla cleric.


In a small party like this, I agree with Just a Mort that Evangelist may not be the best option (despite being pretty great in many other cases), and that trying go stealthy is likely to end up being disappointing.

I also wouldn't worry *too* much about having to be the "Knowledge guy". You have a Rogue, who should have piles of skill points, and it would be fair to look to him/her to fill that niche (Rangers do pretty well on skills points, too). Your skill niches might be beter suited towards the Charisma/"face" side of things.

In fact, as the sole caster in the group, with responsibility for condition removal and healing, alongside whatever other spells you might like to cast, I think you may want to consider making WIS and CHA your main stats, and have the physical stats be a little more moderate.

No need to dump INT, but if you go Human and keep Skilled, there is also no need to boost it beyond 10, IMO (net of age adjstments). The rogue and ranger can fit the skill monkey piece -- you just need to have enough ranks for face skills and some other key skills.

I do quite like to idea of working in some of Dysphoria's ideas for boosting channeling. I don't know that you'll need to focus quite so heavily as suggested, but it could be a good thing to layer onto your fundamental Cleric stuff (I might skip the Improved Channel feat if you have the two domains and trait already, for example).

Speaking of traits, I would also take a second look at Wealthy Parents. While it may give a nice initial boost, I expect you may regret taking it a few levels in. Consider, for example, how gladly you'd be willing to pay 900gp for a permanent +1 boost to a single Saving Throw, or a permanent +2 to initiative checks, or a permanent +1 to channel DCs, etc.


If skill points are a big issue and push comes to shove, you can take the cardinal archetype and play like a divine wizard. However, losing a domain and spontaneous casting is a pretty big thing imo.


Skill points shouldn't really be an issue, what with the rogue and ranger.


We had a life oracle in our CC AP. She was indispensable ! Kept the Paladin and inquisitor in the fight and very well buffed!


This was my entry for a CC PBP. I wanted to try something new instead of a traditional cleric or life oracle. 4 skill points per level before int modifiers.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the many feedback people. I really appreciate it.

After much consideration, I'm not going to go Evangelist. I don't think it'd be right for Carrion Crown, and the way that the group plays.

Also, I don't think I'd go with Stealth. For the reasons stated.

I'm not so sure about Warpriest. While it's a really good class, I think (eventually) getting 7th to 9th level spells will be better for a 3 player party?

After reviewing Cleric archetypes, the Herald Caller has really piqued my interest. Anyone have any experiences with this archetype? How would this go in an AP like Carrion Crown?

I think a Herald Caller would be a really neat toolbox to provide a 3 player party, so long as I do all the book-keeping up front to prevent play being bogged down.


I am inclined to agree with Herald Caller Cleric. No loss of Channeling (in fact you get enhanced ability to use it), and you get improved ability to call in extra meat shields to bolster your under-sized party, and later to poach missing arcane spells via Summons' Spell-Like Abilities. It also helps with the skill points -- not as much as Cardinal, but also not making you a total wimp in combat (although you still give up Medium Armor Proficiency, so don't dump Dex). Also, Herald Caller or not, go Reach (Longspear unless you are a Cleric of Shelyn, in which case get a Glaive).

I'll second the above post about Rich Parents -- it helps you get started, but in the long run it's a trap -- once the extra gold is gone, this trait does absolutely nothing for you. Same deal for any other wealth/material goods traits.

Sovereign Court

UnArcaneElection wrote:

I'll second the above post about Rich Parents -- it helps you get started, but in the long run it's a trap -- once the extra gold is gone, this trait does absolutely nothing for you. Same deal for any other wealth/material goods traits.

I realize Rich Parents is a bad trait. However, I thought it might be a good pickup as a third trait by taking a drawback (especially if there's a drawback that won't have any real, well, drawbacks). Regardless, not really a huge deal, I just won't take a drawback at all.

Still thinking of going with Iomedae and grabbing the Glory/Heroism domain/subdomain. The more summons that are out, the better the Aura of Heroism ability will be.

Not sure if taking Medium/Heavy armor proficiency feats would be worth it?

Also, not sure of how to go about building a Herald Caller. I'll need to spend some time tinkering with a build and post it later. Of course, if anyone has any build advice, I would certainly welcome it.


If you're interested in focusing stats to better effect, you could look at Guided Hand. While strength still affects damage, you can at least consolidate your stats quite a bit more.

You can even weave in a level of Unchained Monk to use your stacked wisdom for AC (plus free Dodge), while using flurry of blows with your favored weapon. If your favored weapon isn't flurry-able, you can take Crusader's Flurry:

1Cleric. Channel Smite / +Guided Hand
2Cleric
3Cleric. Weapon Focus: Longsword
4Cleric
5UMonk. Crusader's Flurry: Longsword / +Dodge

It's somewhat feat intensive if you need Crusader's Flurry, but high wisdom + Dodge + Magic Vestment or some Bracers of Armor is actually decent "armor", and being able to flurry a good weapon in two hands can really dish out some damage even if you're working with somewhat lower strength. Basic Crane Style can be picked up for +4AC if desired; the penalty to attack shouldn't be an issue if you've got Heroism, Weapon Focus and a more focused attack stat.

If you're going to be anywhere near combat and have solid wisdom, spells like Archon's Aura and especially Aura of Doom are quite handy for debuffing whole packs of goons.


Iomedae is probably a decent fit for Herald Caller if you plan to get the Sacred Summons feat later. I also like Erastil for the Feather subdomain for an animal companion and going ranged. Otherwise, you might want to consider a Neutral Good diety like Sarenrae instead, to widen the ambit of summons fitting into the Herald Caller criteria (while preserving access to the Heroism subdomain).

If you don't go ranged, I would also second taking the approach of using a reach weapon and combat reflexes for AOOs (known as a reach cleric -- there is a guide out there). I recall looking into an Elven Branched Spear build previously, but I recall it being a bit feat intensive to pull of everything I wanted.

Otherwise, you'll want to look at the usual summoning feats, like Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summons, etc (though as I recall you get some or all of these vi the archetype). Summon Good Monster might also be worth looking at to expand your summons list.

The Exchange

I don't think you can add dex to damage except by dipping 3 lvs of unchained rogue. Or using an agile elven branched spear, which will be quite a way off. Usually I'm all for animal companions. They're fluffy, adorable and pack a mean punch (esp after divine favour).

The only problem is that if you're up against undead, your animal companion will need double attack trick, not to mention, even with it, there are some undead creatures that you need to make Handle Animal checks to get your companion to approach, double attack trick or not.

Undead tend to come walking with fear effects, which aninal companions are weak against.


Just a Mort wrote:

I don't think you can add dex to damage except by dipping 3 lvs of unchained rogue. Or using an agile elven branched spear, which will be quite a way off. Usually I'm all for animal companions. They're fluffy, adorable and pack a mean punch (esp after divine favour).

The only problem is that if you're up against undead, your animal companion will need double attack trick, not to mention, even with it, there are some undead creatures that you need to make Handle Animal checks to get your companion to approach, double attack trick or not.

Undead tend to come walking with fear effects, which aninal companions are weak against.

Good points. I hadn't actually considered that.

So maybe OP should stick to Iomedae and go for the Sacred Summons feat to more quickly summon Archons, or consider worshiping Sarenrae (who has an anti-undead bent, but still has the fantastic Glory:Heroism domain) to get a wider ambit for the base Herald Caller abilities.

For OP's benefit, Herald Caller's Divine Heralds ability means it tends to work best with a diety with a Neutral element to his/her alignment, whereas Sacred Summons pairs best with alignments at the extremes (like LG, CG, etc) because of the restriction based on the summoned creature's alignment **sub-type** (rather than just its alignment). So there is a natural tension there.

It's probably worth having a look at the Summon Monster list (and what can be added via the Good Monster feat) before deciding.

------

Divine Heralds (Su): A herald caller can use summon monster spells only to summon creatures particularly appropriate to her deity. This includes all creatures listed as summon monster options for priests of her deity (see Expanded Summoning for Priests on page 30), creatures whose alignment matches at least one aspect of her deity’s alignment, and creatures of an elemental subtype that matches a domain granted by the deity (if any)...

Sacred Summons

Prerequisites: Aura class feature, ability to cast summon monster.

Benefit: When using summon monster to summon creatures whose alignment subtype or subtypes exactly match your aura, you may cast the spell as a standard action instead of with a casting time of 1 round.


As far as possible builds go, consider something like the following for a reach build with Elven Branched Spear.

The main focus will be summoning and casting, and using AOOs to generate attacks. For combat, the goal would be to get the EBS enchanted with Agile as soon as possible, and just suck up the low damage in the meantime (maybe consider trying to trip early enemies with AOOs to allow your summons/aliies to mop up, rather than trying to kill them yourself).

-------------

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Cleric (Herald Caller)
Diety: Sarenrae (Heroism Subdomain)
Align.: Neutral Good

STR: 9
DEX: 15
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 18 (+2 from race)
CHA: 12

Feat Progression:

1: Weapon Finesse
1B: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Branched Spear (via Ancestral Arms racial trait)
3: Combat Reflexes
4B: Augment Summoning (from class)
5: Summon Good Monster
7: Sacred Summons
8B: Superior Summoning (from class)

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