On identification: silent spell, invisibility and psychic magic

[Skaeren]

Ok, so two hypothetical situations.

You are a sorcerer who has readied an action to counterspell. You have an enemy. This enemy is already under the effects of invisibility and they cast a silent lightning bolt at you.

Can you identify it? If so, how? As I understand it, you need to be able to see or hear the spell as it is being cast, to be able to counter it.

And before you respond with your answer, consider the next hypothetical situation.

You are a sorcerer who has readied an action to counterspell. You see an enemy spellcaster (you think). Sitting on a chair 40 ft away is someone you don't know. He does not appear to be involved.

Can you identify his spell? If so, how?

Why did I not describe any special circumstances about his spell? Because he is a mesmerist, casting charm person. He has no verbal components. He has no somatic components. All he need do is focus intently.

Now, occult magic says identifying them works the same way, but how can you identify what you cannot see or hear? There is nothing, in any book, about sensing the magic forming. After all, that is why a blind wizard cannot identify a silent spell.

So could we get an actual dev to help here? How, exactly, does identifying a spell work? Not the mechanics of rolling the spell, but what triggers the chance to identify? Can everyone sense when magical energies are being used? Is that what you attempt to identify?

I'm not trying to be pedantic, or get something to hold over my GMs head (as I love psychic casters. They are far superior, in most ways). I want to know so I know how they work, both as one and for when I GM. If we encounter a psychic user, can I attempt to counter their spells? even though I cannot see or hear anything about the spell DURING casting?

Don't forget people, this is what I am talking about: identifying and possibly countering a spell, during the casting process, not dispelling an active spell, or identifying what it is after it has already been cast.

[Saethori]

Conveniently, the developers have already chimed in on this very scenario.

FAQ wrote:

What exactly do I identify when I’m using Spellcraft to identify a spell? Is it the components, since spell-like abilities, for instance, don’t have any? If I can only identify components, would that mean that I can’t take an attack of opportunity against someone using a spell-like ability (or spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components) or ready an action to shoot an arrow to disrupt a spell-like ability? If there’s something else, how do I know what it is?

Although this isn’t directly stated in the Core Rulebook, many elements of the game system work assuming that all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect, like fireball. You can see some examples to give you ideas of how to describe a spell’s manifestation in various pieces of art from Pathfinder products, but ultimately, the choice is up to your group, or perhaps even to the aesthetics of an individual spellcaster, to decide the exact details. Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation. Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.

There is some signal that magic is being cast. Examples are magic runes appearing around the caster, an unearthly thrum filling the air, or even simply the ability to attune your senses that are practiced in magic that something is happening.

[Skaeren]

Thanks so much for that! Mind you, that still leaves Mesmerist/Courtesan (the prestige class from Inner Sea Intrigue) a step ahead of the curb, because of insane bluff. But still, thanks so much for the assistance in finding this!

[Ascalaphus]

The fine rules detail is this: you need to see the spell being cast, not the caster casting it.