Unchained Rogue, Prototype Half-orc


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ChaosTicket wrote:
Classes should either have several class features for various purposes, preferably that stack or have fewer abilities that are exceptional. So Either a Rogue would need alot of options(most likely a caster multiclass) or be able to sneak and backstab anything you come across if that is all you have.

Sneak Attack adds a huge amount of damage to hits. It's +~10.5 damage per hit by level 5, and it's +~21 damage per hit at level 11. A level 11 TWF Rogue that gets to unload a Haste full attack with Sneak Attack triggering could gain up to 180 extra damage just from Sneak Attack dice.

There's no way that isn't an 'exceptional' ability, even if it's not always stupidly easy to trigger (which it often is). People have already mentioned multiple ways to trigger it that don't involve stealth or flanking. If you think or expect that you should just get that kind of a bonus automatically, without needing to use some tactics and/or skills to make it work, you're dreaming.


Chess Pwn wrote:
You can play a rogue by doing combat and view sneak attack kinda like a ranger's favored enemy or paladin smite. Yeah it's really nice when it works. But if you fight different enemies or non-evil your "main ability" is turned off. So be the dex based combatant that just does his thing and gets lots of bonuses sometime if you pull off a flank against the right enemy.

Base class? Sure, but paladin and ranger both have an archetype that removes situational-ness. Oath paladin or guide ranger, that is.


and so does the rogue it's the scout archetype. Removes a lot of situational-ness.


Just sticking with a pure Unchained Rogue and PFS legal content...

Half-Elf Elven Curved Blade Shatter Defenses Rogue

1. Dodge / (+Half Elf Ancestral Arms) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Curved Blade
2. +Weapon Training: Elven Curved Blade
3. Mobility
4. +Combat Trick: Power Attack
5. Canny Tumble
7. Cornugon Smash
9. Dazzling Display
11. Shatter Defenses

Major Magic is open for Mage Armor, Shield or Vanish.

When not making a full attack, you can use Canny Tumble to trigger Sneak Attack damage while tumbling into a flanking position. By level 11, Shatter Defenses opens up targets to Sneak Attack as soon as they're 'marked'.

Human Two-Weapon Feint Rogue

1. Two-Weapon Fighting / Dodge
3. Mobility
5. Canny Tumble
7. Combat Expertise
8. +Combat Trick: Two-Weapon Feint
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Improved Two-Weapon Feint

Major Magic is open for Mage Armor, Shield or Vanish, or for using Dazzling Blade to boost feint rolls.

Same as before, Canny Tumble opens up single Sneak Attack hits while moving. Two-Weapon Feint gives up one attack on a full attack to trigger Sneak Attack on another, and then Improved Two-Weapon Feint gives up one attack to gain Sneak Attack on every single attack after it.

These aren't particularly complicated builds, and they can do decent damage even when attacks don't get a sneak bonus. If you didn't have some kind of problem with a little multiclassing, things could get more interesting.


Can you answer me why you want the Elven Curved Blade so much? You go out of your way to acquire it when the SPiked Chain functions about the same but without requiring as much trouble to unlock.


I believe the crit range is better on the curve blade.

Have you looked at the minor/major magic rogue talents? You can get Vanish as a spell-like ability iirc. That's a pretty useful thing to be able to do. It is only 5 rounds at most (in a single cast), but it can help you scout, get into position, sneak attack, etc. If you take Acid Splash as your minor talent, you can use it to hit flat-footed foes for ranged sneak attack damage (ie during the first round if you aren't last in initiative). You only need one hand to use it, making it better than dealing with switching to a bow since it would only be for the potshot.

For getting sneak attack, I'm a huge fan of the scout archetype and spring attack. It keeps you out of the fight (read: ALIVE), but still dealing damage and dropping debilitating strike on your enemies. IMO, damage as a rogue is nice, but debuffs are the real way you are contributing to fights.


ChaosTicket wrote:
Can you answer me why you want the Elven Curved Blade so much? You go out of your way to acquire it when the SPiked Chain functions about the same but without requiring as much trouble to unlock.

Spiked chain and elven curved blade are both exotic weapons and take the same amount of effort to get. Unless you care about trip or disarm, the curved blade is a far better weapon.

Scout is a very, very good Archetype, but he's concerned about being strictly PFS legal and isn't sure about Unchained Rogue with Scout in PFS.


URogues can be scouts if PFS


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BadBird wrote:
Scout is a very, very good Archetype, but he's concerned about being strictly PFS legal and isn't sure about Unchained Rogue with Scout in PFS.

According to the blog for April 27, 2015, the scout archetype is legal for PFS.

Unchained Blog wrote:
The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).


What are good combinations of multiclassing with a Rogue/ninja?

Ive thought about using a Unchained Barbarian along with a Scout-Unchained Rogue. For one thing it with eventually be able to combine Pounce with multiple Sneak attacks in certain situations.

Arcane Trickster along with a a Wizard or Sorcerer(possibly Sage) has already been brought up.


Fighter for things like feats, armor/shield proficiency, Weapon Training with Gloves of Dueling, and Armor Training to move full speed in mithral heavy armor with a higher DEX cap and less armor check penalty.

Urban Barbarian or Urban Bloodrager for DEX-Rage and possibly Rage Powers (though those are usually not a lot of use with low Barbarian levels).

Oracle, Cleric, Warpriest, Sacred Fist, or Shaman for buffs, powers and spells.

Druid with Shaping Focus, as I posted above.

Monk for flurry and a Ki Pool that lets you use Ninja Tricks like Vanishing Trick.

Swashbuckler for panache abilities.

Strength Patron Witch for buffs and other spells.

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Magus 4/UC Rogue X/Arcane Trickster Y? Focus on getting touch spells since your BAB will be pretty poor. And the magus's Arcane Pool and Spell Recall might be useful, as well as shoring up your Fortitude and Will Saves.


If you use Arcane Trickster levels to bump attack bonus through buffs like Heroism it might be workable; a Rogue 3/ Wizard 4/ Trickster 4 has only 2 less BAB at level 11 than a pure Rogue, and Heroism is +2 to attack. Do it with a full arcane caster that also gets Divine Favor and it might have a pretty decent attack bonus, though attack bonus is never the whole story.


If you want a very martial-style multiclass Rogue...

'Shadow Warrior'
Weapon Master Fighter 3/ Thug Scout Rogue X
Dual Talent Human: 16/18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 12INT, 14/16WIS, 7CHA
Traits: Armor Expert, Bruising Intellect

1WM. Weapon Focus: Nodachi / +Intimidating Prowess
2TS. *Thug: Frightening (+1round for shaken) / ~1d6 Sneak Attack
3TS. *Talent: Ki Pool / Power Attack
4TS. *Thug: Brutal Beating (trade 1 sneak die to sicken) / ~2d6 Sneak Attack
5TS. *Scout: Scout's Charge (Sneak Attack on a charge) / *Talent: Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick / Extra Ki
6WM. +Cornugon Smash
7WM. *Weapon Master: Weapon Training - Nodachi / Dazzling Display
8TS. ~3d6 Sneak Attack
9TS. *Talent: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses / *Human FCB Talent: Offensive Defense / Extra Ki
10TS. ~4d6 Sneak Attack
11TS. *Scout: Skirmisher (Sneak Attack with movement) / *Talent: Shadow Clone / Extra Ki

You still have tons of skills, but you're not really build for stealth and acrobatics; you're built for dishing out very nasty damage, and debuffing while you do it. A typical approach to combat would be:

Charge -> Two-handed nodachi Power Attack with Sneak Attack added, inflict shaken, inflict sickened -> Vanishing Trick. Next Round: Appear with two-handed nodachi Power Attack with Sneak Attack, triggering Shatter Defenses due to shaken from last round -> continue full attack with Sneak Attack -> Vanishing Trick...

With 16WIS, a +WIS item and a growing pool of Extra Ki, you've got a ton of uses/day of your Vanishing Trick, and eventually some Shadow Clone for Mirror Image defenses. The high wisdom also helps will saves.

Non-sneak damage with Power Attack and a nodachi in two hands is heavy, and Weapon Training plus Gloves of Dueling add a big bonus to attack and damage. You can wear whatever armor you want, including mithral plate if you don't mind the -3ACP.


Thank you for the suggestions, but the Rogue is not for me. I believe the class would need many more special or magical liabilities to enable it to continue being useful especially against enemies immune to Sneak attacks.

Its not a practical class because of its over-specialization in the one class feature. I just keep thinking "what it it had [blank]?" to improve that one thing it has, in other areas that it is lacking, or give it abilities in areas it doesnt even have. Its fun trying to wishlist abilities on it like Pounce or Invisibility at least.


ChaosTicket wrote:

Thank you for the suggestions, but the Rogue is not for me. I believe the class would need many more special or magical liabilities to enable it to continue being useful especially against enemies immune to Sneak attacks.

Its not a practical class because of its over-specialization in the one class feature.

Well, it's pretty well established that 1. you don't need Sneak Attack to be able to contribute - you can deal decent if not huge damage without it, and 2. it's not difficult to generate Sneak Attack in most situations - for example, the build I posted above could potentially trigger Sneak Attack on every single strike while fighting solo.

If you don't like the mechanics because you can't stand the thought of ever missing out on a specialized attack bonus for even a few attacks, then so be it; but that's not a problem with the class. Honestly, if you move away from very shallow theorycrafting and actually run some numbers on how some possible builds will play out in different situations, you may start seeing things quite a bit differently.

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Are any 3.5 materials allowed? They had weapon crystals that added the ability to crit and sneak attack lots of different creatures that are usually immune to crits.

Add to that, PF has a lot less creatures immune to sneak attacks.

If you REALLY want to sneak attack every single round, you might have to switch to 5th Edition. They also fixed Sneak Attack so you can snipe very effectively, multiply sneak attack damage on critical hits, and practically nothing is immune to sneak attacks and critical hits. You don't even need to flank; you can sneak attack (ranged or melee) if you have an ally threatening your target. There is no range limit to sneak attacks, so depending on the weapon you're using, you can sneak attack from hundreds of feet away!


BadBird wrote:

If you don't like the mechanics because you can't stand the thought of ever missing out on a specialized attack bonus for even a few attacks, then so be it; but that's not a problem with the class. Honestly, if you move away from very shallow theorycrafting and actually run some numbers on how some possible builds will play out in different situations, you may start seeing things quite a bit differently.

Okay let me bring some numbers for a level 19-20 Unchained Rogue. 10d6 sneak attack damage from one attack per turn(charge or move-to-attack) is 35 damage average plus a 1d6(3.5 average) +5 enhancement, +3 dex bonus from belt, +4 dex start, +2 dex level upgrades.

1 so For Unchained Rogue is is 35+3.5+5+3+4+2=52.5 damage per turn. Without Sneak Attack its 17.5, one third of that. If you can sneak up and get a full-attack with 6 hits you might get about 315 damage. A Rogue needs a way to always Sneak attacks and full-attack actions or else it will end up drastically underwhelming for that level.

2 Now a 9 U-Rogue+11 U-Barbarian(with Pounce) would have only get 17.5 damage from sneak attack, but at the same time you would charge or Full-attack every turn and get 7 attacks. So 35x7=245 damage per turn. 158 while raging and without Sneak attacks. A Full 20 U-Barbarian would still get something about 185 damage per turn without requiring Sneak Attacks.

3 A Wizard can use Maximize Spell on Chain Lightning to get 120 damage to 20 targets at 1200feet while Flying and Invisible.

Um, do you wonder why I am concerned about not doing enough with a couple short swords? Flight, Invisibility, Range, area-of-effect, those are missing and boy does missing them hurt. Wizard goes Dragonball Z and Rogue has to run around going to enemies one-by-one.

Note: I didnt include Power Attack/Piranha Strike in the calculations


Why the obsession with level 20 and the comparison to a Wizard? Most campaigns cap out well before 20, and full 9-level spellcasters are considered gods compared to everything else at that level. If you're only happy playing characters that easily stack up against a level 20 Wizard, you're not going to be playing much.

Anyhow your assessment of a level 20 Rogue is a bit absurd, and not just because you have a level 20 melee character with only 1d6+5 +9 damage on a strike. You haven't even considered possibilities beyond six normal attacks per round (which forgot Haste), like Opportunist. Consider for a moment what Opportunist and Paired Opportunists can do for a Rogue and their allies.

Beyond damage, I don't see anything about other effects at all. Crippling Strike will drop a target's strength by 2 with every single hit. Debilitating Injury will drop attacks or AC by 8 points. Some simple condition stacking can easily drop a -4 on attacks and saving throws. Master Strike is an instant kill if the target fails the save.

I mean, I doubt I would ever play a Rogue that didn't multiclass in some way, but that's because I like multiclass builds and Rogue works well with other classes. Rogue may not be the most amazing combat class there is, but at least if you're going to go comparing it to things, make some more thoughtful and rounded out comparisons than just 'damage vs. level 20 Wizard' or 'damage vs. hackneyed ragepounce'.


Endgame planning. Something good now wont always be so. Fighter class is prime example.

That is a focus on this (somehow) ongoing thread is how to keep the Unchained Rogue competitive later, either by allowing Sneak Attacks in any situation or by gaining the magic powers it will eventually need to be self-sufficient as a character. It was really already answered. Eldritch Scoundrel is one choice but not Society Legal with the Unchained Rogue. Arcane Trickster is another though its a long-term loss as a caster.


You shouldn't compare pounce to non-pounce OR admit that you can only play damage characters with pounce. Also comparing to a barb isn't the best since barb is toted as one of top damagers.

People have shown various ways to get sneak attack on every turn and I know of a few more and could probably come up with a few more than that if I tried hard.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Rogue 1/wizard 3 (with Accomplished Sneak Attacker)/arcane trickster 10/wizard 6 gives you 19th level casting and 7d6 sneak attack dice. Not too shabby. There might even be some more fun PrCs for those last 6 levels of wizard.

That's if you want a character that is primarily a spellcaster with some sneak attacking.

If you want a sneak attacker with some magic, you can go rogue 7/wizard 3/arcane trickster 10 for 9 sneak attack dice (10d6 with Accomplished sneak attacker) and 7th level spells.

One thing to consider is that PF is a team exercise, so instead of trying to make a character that can be the best at everything (a sneaky tank that can cast tons of spells and heal and be the face), try to focus on one or two aspects you find the most fun to do.


If creating an Arcane Trickster that's going to melee, either Strength Patron Witch or Spell Sage Wizard using Preferred Spell: Divine Favor can massively improve combat ability through Divine Favor and Fate's Favored. Between that and Heroism you can make up for an awful lot of missing BAB (though you're still suffering delayed iterative attacks).

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