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This is the crux of the argument, Wraithstrike is saying that the earth is a solid barrier for an earth elemental, and i am saying that it is not.
It is a solid barrier, the fact that the elemental can move through it does not change the fact that it is a solid barrier.
What? Did the definition of solid change? Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?
When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.
When did the words "as a fish swims through water" come to mean the same thing as the words "as a blind rhino smashes into a concrete wall"?
If you are able to move through something then it is not a solid object or barrier to you, by definition! How can something that is not solid provide cover to your opponent?
Or is it theory of mind that is bogging everyone down? The fact that a thing can at the same time be a solid barrier to a normal creature and a non-solid barrier to an earth gliding creature?
I hope you see the irony of asking if the definition of solid changing as related to your interpretations of the rules.
Arguing from a completely RAW perspective solid is anything which would be described as per the traditional definition. In this case the ground, dirt, stone and the like. Solid prevent movement as well as attacks as before stated, provided the solid object is between the two respective characters squares.
Specific trumps general. So in this case the specific rule of earth glide allows the elemental to move through the solid, but it does not overrule the general rule that you can not attack through it.
Earthglide changes earth from behaving like a solid (earth) to behaving like a liquid (water) with regard to the creature with the Earthglide ability. From a resistance to movement perspective there is no logical difference between moving an arm whilst swimming through the earth and moving the same arm and the fist striking another creature. The penalties for attacking in water (a liquid) apply, but it is possible.
^ This.
I hope you see the irony of asking if the definition of solid changing as related to your interpretations of the rules.
Arguing from a completely RAW perspective solid is anything which would be described as per the traditional definition. In this case the ground, dirt, stone and the like. Solid prevent movement as well as attacks as before stated, provided the solid object is between the two respective characters squares.
Specific trumps general. So in this case the specific rule of earth glide allows the elemental to move through the solid, but it does not overrule the general rule that you can not attack through it.
So it was lack of a theory of mind that was the issue, i get it now.
It's not often that I disagree with Wraithstrike, but this time I do.
I think using Earth Glide to attack incorporeal or other creatures hiding in walls, floors and other solid material is valid. The treatment of earth as water for the purposes of melee attack penalties seems reasonable. I would also rule that in such cases the earth provides total concealment rather than total cover. The earth glider can't see their opponent but the earth isn't providing cover, other than acting as water.
Having the earth elemental use real earth as cover seems like a valid tactic. They would suffer the in-water penalties as well though so is more likely to be used as an ambush or defensive tactic.
That's the whole reason about using the readied action, because at the point the creature is reaching out to do it's nasty on you, it's exposed for retaliation.
Earthglide =/= Burrow. not sure where you got that idea from? The earth is still a physical barrier to something that burrows, but not for something that earthglides.It does not equal burrow, but that does not mean it has extra abilities beyond burrow either.
How is something supposed to fight(not run away from) an earth elemental under you interpretation at levels 7th, and earlier?
They max out at CR 11 so it makes sense that if they can ignore the ground as a barrier Paizo had some idea of how to defeat them.
You don't fight it on something it can earth glide through. This doesn't really have any bearing on how the ability works, its just an argument for upping it's CR.
EDIT: it is also an argument for the GM governing when to use the tactic, maybe lesser elementals just aren't smart enough? I can't think of any reason for an earth elemental to WANT to come out of the earth, its their natural habitat. When was the last time you caught a wind elemental digging a tunnel or a water elemental flying? Or an earth elemental swimming? why should they be any less averse to exposing themselves in open air?
Furthermore, and this has been brought up in other earthglide threads, if an earth elemental cannot attack creatures while earth gliding then the plane of earth must be a very peaceful place indeed
Humanoids can go there. You don't have to nr below ground completely surrounded by earth to fight, and if you won't directly answer my question you may as well not bother replying. Right now all I'm hearing is the party will automatically lose.
That's the whole reason about using the readied action, because at the point the creature is reaching out to do it's nasty on you, it's exposed for retaliation.It's not often that I disagree with Wraithstrike, but this time I do.
I think using Earth Glide to attack incorporeal or other creatures hiding in walls, floors and other solid material is valid. The treatment of earth as water for the purposes of melee attack penalties seems reasonable. I would also rule that in such cases the earth provides total concealment rather than total cover. The earth glider can't see their opponent but the earth isn't providing cover, other than acting as water.
Having the earth elemental use real earth as cover seems like a valid tactic. They would suffer the in-water penalties as well though so is more likely to be used as an ambush or defensive tactic.
It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.
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It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.That's the whole reason about using the readied action, because at the point the creature is reaching out to do it's nasty on you, it's exposed for retaliation.It's not often that I disagree with Wraithstrike, but this time I do.
I think using Earth Glide to attack incorporeal or other creatures hiding in walls, floors and other solid material is valid. The treatment of earth as water for the purposes of melee attack penalties seems reasonable. I would also rule that in such cases the earth provides total concealment rather than total cover. The earth glider can't see their opponent but the earth isn't providing cover, other than acting as water.
Having the earth elemental use real earth as cover seems like a valid tactic. They would suffer the in-water penalties as well though so is more likely to be used as an ambush or defensive tactic.
As the Incorporeal rules for attacking out of a solid would fit easily with Earth Glide rules for treating solid stone as water(solid for others but not itself) I suggest using this rule associated with Incorporeal.
"An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks."
You will notice that an incorporeal creature may be attacked while performing its attack from inside solid matter with a readied action. The same should hold true with an Earth Gliding creature.
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I hope you see the irony of asking if the definition of solid changing as related to your interpretations of the rules.
Arguing from a completely RAW perspective solid is anything which would be described as per the traditional definition. In this case the ground, dirt, stone and the like. Solid prevent movement as well as attacks as before stated, provided the solid object is between the two respective characters squares.
Specific trumps general. So in this case the specific rule of earth glide allows the elemental to move through the solid, but it does not overrule the general rule that you can not attack through it.
Your logic does not take the rules of Incorporeal into account.
An incorporeal creature may attack through solid matter. Because the matter is not solid for them. This is the same for an earth gliding creature. The ground is not solid for them. The ground IS normally solid, though, which means a projectile weapon will not work. It would freeze in the stone the moment it left the possession of the earth gliding creature. But anything in the earth gliding creatures possession, as well as itself, may move through the ground as if it were water. Which would allow them to temporarily breach the surface to commit an attack. You do still follow the standard rules for fighting things you can not see. For an elemental, tremorsense only allows them to pinpoint and does not over come sight penalties.And, as I've stated before, an attacking Earth Gliding creature should be vulnerable to readied attacks in the exact same way incorporeal creatures are. They would still have cover, but that is enough to allow an attack.
That's the whole reason about using the readied action, because at the point the creature is reaching out to do it's nasty on you, it's exposed for retaliation.It's not often that I disagree with Wraithstrike, but this time I do.
I think using Earth Glide to attack incorporeal or other creatures hiding in walls, floors and other solid material is valid. The treatment of earth as water for the purposes of melee attack penalties seems reasonable. I would also rule that in such cases the earth provides total concealment rather than total cover. The earth glider can't see their opponent but the earth isn't providing cover, other than acting as water.
Having the earth elemental use real earth as cover seems like a valid tactic. They would suffer the in-water penalties as well though so is more likely to be used as an ambush or defensive tactic.
To clarify, I meant the creature being attacked by the earthglider has total concealment because (barring any overriding senses) it cannot detect its opponent through the earth.
It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.
Sure you can, just requires it to be within your reach (which would depend on whether you're buffed by enlarge person and what size the elemental is).
That only gives you the ability to LOOK through stone, not glide through it.I don't believe rangers have such options.Ranger spell, level 3, Dwarves of Golarion. See Through Stone
Hunter or Ranger with a archtype that grants animal focus. Get Planar focus and go earth.
There, Earth glide and see through.
It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.That's the whole reason about using the readied action, because at the point the creature is reaching out to do it's nasty on you, it's exposed for retaliation.It's not often that I disagree with Wraithstrike, but this time I do.
I think using Earth Glide to attack incorporeal or other creatures hiding in walls, floors and other solid material is valid. The treatment of earth as water for the purposes of melee attack penalties seems reasonable. I would also rule that in such cases the earth provides total concealment rather than total cover. The earth glider can't see their opponent but the earth isn't providing cover, other than acting as water.
Having the earth elemental use real earth as cover seems like a valid tactic. They would suffer the in-water penalties as well though so is more likely to be used as an ambush or defensive tactic.
As the Incorporeal rules for attacking out of a solid would fit easily with Earth Glide rules for treating solid stone as water(solid for others but not itself) I suggest using this rule associated with Incorporeal.
"An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks."You will notice that an incorporeal creature may be attacked while performing its attack from inside solid matter with a readied action. The same should hold true with an Earth Gliding creature.
That is because the rules specifically say it has is adjacent to the edge of the object and that it has to expose itself, and as I pointed out before those rules are specific to incorporeal creatures. An earth elemental has no such rule, and there is no general rule to see a creature must expose itself if it can attack from behind total cover.
It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.Sure you can, just requires it to be within your reach (which would depend on whether you're buffed by enlarge person and what size the elemental is).
That is incorrect. If the earth elemental's body is still below the ground reach won't matter. It still has full cover from you. Your reach weapon will not allow you to hit something below the ground anymore than it would allow you to bypass a wall of force. So it can reach you since the ground no longer effectively acts as cover for it, but you can't do the same to the creature.
That is incorrect. If the earth elemental's body is still below the ground reach won't matter. It still has full cover from you. Your reach weapon will not allow you to hit something below the ground anymore than it would allow you to bypass a wall of force. So it can reach you since the ground no longer effectively acts as cover for it, but you can't do the same to the creature.It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.Sure you can, just requires it to be within your reach (which would depend on whether you're buffed by enlarge person and what size the elemental is).
Brilliance weapon? Or the one version that let you hit undead/ghosts etc.
Brilliance weapon? Or the one version that let you hit undead/ghosts etc.That is incorrect. If the earth elemental's body is still below the ground reach won't matter. It still has full cover from you. Your reach weapon will not allow you to hit something below the ground anymore than it would allow you to bypass a wall of force. So it can reach you since the ground no longer effectively acts as cover for it, but you can't do the same to the creature.It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.Sure you can, just requires it to be within your reach (which would depend on whether you're buffed by enlarge person and what size the elemental is).
Brillant weapons work, but I was talking about conventional(non corner case) means since earth elementals tend to be dealt with by level 7 and lower level parties. They top at out CR 11, assuming no templates or class level are assigned to them. By the time you get that weapon you probably have Move Rarth or the entire party can gain access to fly, at least for 1 or 2 encounters and not even be detected by tremorsense anyway, or you can summon your own elementals to deal with them.
Brillant weapons work, but I was talking about conventional(non corner case) means since earth elementals tend to be dealt with by level 7 and lower level parties. They top at out CR 11, assuming no templates or class level are assigned to them. By the time you get that weapon you probably have Move Rarth or the entire party can gain access to fly, at least for 1 or 2 encounters and not even be detected by tremorsense anyway, or you can summon your own elementals to deal with them.Brilliance weapon? Or the one version that let you hit undead/ghosts etc.
Thats fair, but my point was just to figure out how it would work. Maybe ghost touch too, but you still have to deal with the earth, so Adamantine + Ghost touch?
And Hunter ( Ranger with animal focus ) and the dwarf spell deal with the movement options by lvl 5 as they can pick up planar focus and hunters get the dwarf see through spell. So at least you can see and get to it, if you want to fight it your options are unarmed with Magic weapon/Fang, Ghostbane Dirge, Freedom of movement.
Still a interesting encounter.
Brillant weapons work, but I was talking about conventional(non corner case) means since earth elementals tend to be dealt with by level 7 and lower level parties. They top at out CR 11, assuming no templates or class level are assigned to them. By the time you get that weapon you probably have Move Rarth or the entire party can gain access to fly, at least for 1 or 2 encounters and not even be detected by tremorsense anyway, or you can summon your own elementals to deal with them.Brilliance weapon? Or the one version that let you hit undead/ghosts etc.
Thats fair, but my point was just to figure out how it would work. Maybe ghost touch too, but you still have to deal with the earth, so Adamantine + Ghost touch?
And Hunter ( Ranger with animal focus ) and the dwarf spell deal with the movement options by lvl 5 as they can pick up planar focus and hunters get the dwarf see through spell. So at least you can see and get to it, if you want to fight it your options are unarmed with Magic weapon/Fang, Ghostbane Dirge, Freedom of movement.
Still a interesting encounter.
Ghost Touch weapons don't bypass solid matter when wielded by corporeal beings. They just do full damage against incorporeal creatures instead of only doing half damage.
That is because the rules specifically say it has is adjacent to the edge of the object and that it has to expose itself, and as I pointed out before those rules are specific to incorporeal...It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.That's the whole reason about using the readied action, because at the point the creature is reaching out to do it's nasty on you, it's exposed for retaliation.It's not often that I disagree with Wraithstrike, but this time I do.
I think using Earth Glide to attack incorporeal or other creatures hiding in walls, floors and other solid material is valid. The treatment of earth as water for the purposes of melee attack penalties seems reasonable. I would also rule that in such cases the earth provides total concealment rather than total cover. The earth glider can't see their opponent but the earth isn't providing cover, other than acting as water.
Having the earth elemental use real earth as cover seems like a valid tactic. They would suffer the in-water penalties as well though so is more likely to be used as an ambush or defensive tactic.
As the Incorporeal rules for attacking out of a solid would fit easily with Earth Glide rules for treating solid stone as water(solid for others but not itself) I suggest using this rule associated with Incorporeal.
"An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks."You will notice that an incorporeal creature may be attacked while performing its attack from inside solid matter with a readied action. The same should hold true with an Earth Gliding creature.
If I ever have you in a campaign Wraithstrike, I will rule you are unable to retaliate.
For everyone else, lacking specific guidance on the subject from RAW, I have always used the same rules as retaliating against incorporeal creatures.
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That is because the rules specifically say it has is adjacent to the edge of the object and that it has to expose itself, and as I pointed out before those rules are specific to incorporeal creatures. An earth elemental has no such rule, and there is no general rule to see a creature must expose itself if it can attack from behind total cover.
If you want to get technical about rules and where they belong... Earth Glide barely has any rules to it at all. As such, there are no rules that even allow it specifically to attack from within a wall. Much less how to handle readied attacks against it.
But, if Pathfinder did have rules for it? There is no doubt in my mind that they would be similar to Incorporeal rules. As it is an extremely similar set of circumstances. The only difference is an earth gliding creature can be deeper into the solid material. Which shouldn't make a difference as attacking only downgrades their cover(exposed but not emerged). They only have to emerge to be able to attack normally(without sight penalties).But, all any of us can do is conjecture until someone at Paizo finally writes comprehensive(or just something on par with Incoporeal's length would do) rules for burrow and earth glide. So I wouldn't suggest getting super rules lawyery about where suggested rulings come from.
Druids specialized on earth elemental form are great fun to play. Even better in deeper darkness. Even yet better with huge size, a dwarven dorn dergar, whopping great reach and the feats to maximize the utility of that.
Humanoids can go there. You don't have to nr below ground completely surrounded by earth to fight, and if you won't directly answer my question you may as well not bother replying. Right now all I'm hearing is the party will automatically lose.Earthglide =/= Burrow. not sure where you got that idea from? The earth is still a physical barrier to something that burrows, but not for something that earthglides.It does not equal burrow, but that does not mean it has extra abilities beyond burrow either.
How is something supposed to fight(not run away from) an earth elemental under you interpretation at levels 7th, and earlier?
They max out at CR 11 so it makes sense that if they can ignore the ground as a barrier Paizo had some idea of how to defeat them.
You don't fight it on something it can earth glide through. This doesn't really have any bearing on how the ability works, its just an argument for upping it's CR.
EDIT: it is also an argument for the GM governing when to use the tactic, maybe lesser elementals just aren't smart enough? I can't think of any reason for an earth elemental to WANT to come out of the earth, its their natural habitat. When was the last time you caught a wind elemental digging a tunnel or a water elemental flying? Or an earth elemental swimming? why should they be any less averse to exposing themselves in open air?
Furthermore, and this has been brought up in other earthglide threads, if an earth elemental cannot attack creatures while earth gliding then the plane of earth must be a very peaceful place indeed
How are you concluding that the party will automatically lose? I told you several ways you could deal with it, the main one being "do not fight it on a surface that it can earth glide through" (others including Move Earth, climbing a tree, or flying). If you want some more ways you could fight one;
Once again, the fact that the tactic is a difficult one to fight against (read, requires some prior planning and/or tactical thinking) does not actually have any effect whatsoever on how the ability works. It is only a reason to re-evaluate the CR of earth elementals (Turns out its hard to fight them in their natural element, just like its hard to fight water elementals in the water or air elementals in the air).
oh, they are totally immune to stunning, so skip that one.
Also, any time you can get it visible you have a chance to cast hostile levitation on it, which should basically eject it from the earth.
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That is incorrect. If the earth elemental's body is still below the ground reach won't matter. It still has full cover from you. Your reach weapon will not allow you to hit something below the ground anymore than it would allow you to bypass a wall of force. So it can reach you since the ground no longer effectively acts as cover for it, but you can't do the same to the creature.It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.Sure you can, just requires it to be within your reach (which would depend on whether you're buffed by enlarge person and what size the elemental is).
I think Wraithstrike's issue is with low level parties combatting large (and larger) earth elementals. With 10 foot reach they do not have to be adjacent to their opponent and can remain behind 5 feet of earth whilst attacking and thus remain in total cover. The strikeback feat specifically calls out attacking limbs on creatures with reach so it can be assumed that without that feat you cannot target the limb. I believe the rest of us are thinking of medium size (and smaller) elementals without reach that would have to break total cover to be adjacent and attacking and therefore is only partially protected (i.e. has cover).
My suggestion for a party in such a suggestion, is to either run or be creative and create some form of metal raft, which would provide cover and force the earth elemental out of the ground to attack. It could be the basis of a very interesting encounter if the GM set it as a puzzle/trap rather than a straight combat encounter.
That is incorrect. If the earth elemental's body is still below the ground reach won't matter. It still has full cover from you. Your reach weapon will not allow you to hit something below the ground anymore than it would allow you to bypass a wall of force. So it can reach you since the ground no longer effectively acts as cover for it, but you can't do the same to the creature.It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.Sure you can, just requires it to be within your reach (which would depend on whether you're buffed by enlarge person and what size the elemental is).I think Wraithstrike's issue is with low level parties combatting large (and larger) earth elementals. With 10 foot reach they do not have to be adjacent to their opponent and can remain behind 5 feet of earth whilst attacking and thus remain in total cover. The strikeback feat specifically calls out attacking limbs on creatures with reach so it can be assumed that without that feat you cannot target the limb. I believe the rest of us are thinking of medium size (and smaller) elementals without reach that would have to break total cover to be adjacent and attacking and therefore is only partially protected (i.e. has cover).
My suggestion for a party in such a suggestion, is to either run or be creative and create some form of metal raft, which would provide cover and force the earth elemental out of the ground to attack. It could be the basis of a very interesting encounter if the GM set it as a puzzle/trap rather than a straight combat encounter.
I mean, it doesn't really matter how large its reach is. If you cancel out its tremorsense then it is forced to come out and fight in the open, which is the weakest part of the tactic and should be exploited to fight it.
Also, you should bring a wooden raft, since that would cancel out its tremorsense while giving you cover.
That is incorrect. If the earth elemental's body is still below the ground reach won't matter. It still has full cover from you. Your reach weapon will not allow you to hit something below the ground anymore than it would allow you to bypass a wall of force. So it can reach you since the ground no longer effectively acts as cover for it, but you can't do the same to the creature.It has tremorsense. There is no reason it would have to expose itself if it can attack through the ground. You can't ready an action to strike limbs without the strikeback feat.Sure you can, just requires it to be within your reach (which would depend on whether you're buffed by enlarge person and what size the elemental is).
If it attacks you, it has to expose itself, it no longer has cover AT THAT MOMENT. At that moment, readied actions can come into play.
And if a DM attacks their party with this sort of cheese as a standard occurance instead of a rare one time event, they have only themselves to blame when players walk out.
I've faced this situation in ONE PFS module so far. We didn't have any earth gliders in our group. (Not that they would have halped since the incoporeals were going through worked walls, not raw dirt. But we eventually took them out with the readied actions. Was it a painful long slog? Yes, but we survived.