Unchained Superstitious Barbarians and Magic Items


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

There's already been some discussion on this on potions specifically, and there's some awareness that there seems to be a can of worms in play with the updated Unchained version of the Barbarian.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tlp0?Does-a-Superstitious-Barbarian-have-to-sa ve

At any rate, here's the "chained" version of the Superstition rage power:
Superstition (Ex)
Benefit: The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

And here's the new "unchained" version of the power:
Superstition (Ex): The barbarian gains a +2 competence bonus on saving throws made to resist spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has. The barbarian cannot be the willing target of any spell and must attempt saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

There's also this key caveat from the Unchained Barbarian Rage Powers entry: "A barbarian gains the benefits of rage powers only while raging."

So the bonus type changes from morale to competence, supernatural abilities fall out of the unchained version, and the bonus scales up with the unchained version. But in both cases it only applies while the barbarian is raging.

Finally, the actual rules question:
Does the requirement for making saves against spells and spell-like abilities as if you were an unwilling target while raging also apply to the Barbarian's own command word activation items (e.g. Unfettered Shirt, Winged Boots, Ring of Invisibility, etc.). I know other sections of the rules stipulate that you're usually considered your own ally, so whether you're forcing a spell in liquid form down your own throat or trying to activate you trusty boots to let you fly up and hit the monster, in both cases it seems like Superstition's requirement that you make a Will save should apply. This may make for some grumpy Barbarians until they get rage cycling down pat, but is there anyone who can make a case for the barbarian's command word magic items not being subject to Superstition?

A particularly evil GM might even push it in the opposite direction, and note that the rules state that you only get the benefits of Superstition and other unchained rage powers while raging, but the penalties of something like Superstition might apply all the time.

Given the number of Barbarians running around with this rage power (either "just because" or as a pre-req to things like Witch Hunter and Eater of Magic), this feels like it could use some clarification.


It says all spells. This means all spells. However, all spells do not allow a save. And a lot of magical items do not cast a spell on the wearer, it just grants an ability or magical effect.


To be honest, I never really thought that the drawbacks of Superstition would apply even before raging until you brought that caveat to light. Since that is the case, then by the rules, that "particularly evil GM" is technically right, because it doesn't say anything about not applying the restrictions or drawbacks, either, in which case, that's a huge nerf to Superstition (and one that I feel it deserves).

Of course, as Rub-Eta says, unless it says the item is casting a spell, such as via a Wand, Scroll, or similar, then yes. If it's something like Boots of Speed, which give you listed benefits "as the spell" upon activating an item, then Superstition wouldn't apply, because those benefits are not brought upon from a spell, they're from a magic item (which, in my opinion, should still apply, but the rules don't say so).


the "penalty" of Superstition is part of the "benefit" of that rage power. When not raging you don't have any rage powers.


The whole point of being a superstitious barbarian is that you're superstitious Your hatred of magic isn't a thing of the moment, it's an essential part of what you are. You're not the type to make use of a Xmas tree of magic items.


Chess Pwn wrote:
the "penalty" of Superstition is part of the "benefit" of that rage power. When not raging you don't have any rage powers.

Being forced to make a saving throw against harmless spells cast by allies is in no way, shape, or form, a benefit; trying to pawn it off as if it were just because you receive bonuses to all saving throws, including those saving throws, doesn't change that.

I feel like making a FAQ for this, if only just to see whether Paizo is going to nerf the cookie cutter Superstition Rage Power (and make Barbarians take other, more junky Rage Powers).

**EDIT** Sentence structure is hard.


Rage powers, like most bloodrage powers, are only active while raging. When not raging the superstition rage power isn't doing anything and thus it does nothing.


I'm over here trying to figure out why a class with two poor saves needs its ability to increase its saves nerfed even further. The only exploitative thing about Superstition was nerfed into oblivion already (Courageous weapons don't work any more), so why does a +7 to saves at 20th level that only applies to certain types of saves and only while Raging annoy people so much? It amounts to, at 20th level, having the barbarian have all Good saves (well, one point above), so it's not well above any of the expected math except where people themselves expect Barbarians to fail every Will save tossed at them.

That tangent done, it takes some really selective reading to say Rage Power penalties apply while not Raging. That pretty clearly wasn't the intent.

As for magic items, it depends on wording. Most magic items do not actually cast the spell, or grant an SLA usable x times per day. That's what differentiates them from Wands, Scrolls, and Potions. They generally specify "as if affected by a(n) X spell". Not sure there's any way to differently read that one.

Superstition says you must make save against spells cast, but this spell was not cast.

By a more pedantic reading, if you successfully make a save against a spell, you are not affected by it. Which means since the magic item specifically states "you are affected", you cannot be unaffected when you activate it.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Rage powers, like most bloodrage powers, are only active while raging. When not raging the superstition rage power isn't doing anything and thus it does nothing.

Incorrect. The benefits of the Rage Powers don't take effect unless raging. Benefits have nothing to do with any drawbacks Rage Powers may possess, such as having to make a saving throw against harmless spells that you don't want to make a saving throw against.

In certain cases, paraphrasing what the rules say does not always translate to what the rules actually say. Unfortunately, this is one of those cases.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Rage powers, like most bloodrage powers, are only active while raging. When not raging the superstition rage power isn't doing anything and thus it does nothing.

Incorrect. The benefits of the Rage Powers don't take effect unless raging. Benefits have nothing to do with any drawbacks Rage Powers may possess, such as having to make a saving throw against harmless spells that you don't want to make a saving throw against.

In certain cases, paraphrasing what the rules say does not always translate to what the rules actually say. Unfortunately, this is one of those cases.

Except the drawback to the Rage Power is included in the benefit line (there is not separate drawback section of the rage power). So therefore, as far as the rage power being active is concerned, the drawback is part of the benefit.


the benefit of the rage power superstition is what the superstition rage power says it does. Which is grants a bonus to all saves and requires that you attempt all saves. If you aren't benefiting from the superstition rage power, then it's as if you didn't have the rage power.

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