Advice for a halfling grappler?

[Jasevaati Hskori]

I know, and I don't care. If I can put a competent build together, I'm doing it.

Cliffs of cliffs of cliffs;

- 25 pt buy.
- Race MUST be halfling.
- Starts at level 3.

Build doesn't have to be exclusively focused on grappling, but I do want to be good at it.

I'm mainly looking at unchained monk or (more plausible) Urban Barbarian/Brutal Pugilist. Pugilist gets lots of juicy stuff, particularly a 5th level ability that lets you get treated as one size category larger for the relevant grapple-y bits.

I have, however, just started researching and am open to any and all suggestions.

[MageHunter]

Abyssal bloodrager gives you a size boost. Maybe some multiclass (if brutal pugilist isn't available as a bloodrager archetype). I find the idea hilarious. Halfling sizes up giant, grows bigger and wrestles him to the ground.

Maybe a bloodrager/monk/ninja. Ninja turns the ki pool into charisma making you less MAD.

[Scott Wilhelm]

So, Halflings do get a -1 Size Mod on Combat Maneuvers, but they get a +1 on Attack Rolls, and the Grapple Combat Maneuver is an Attack Roll.

They do take a -2 Strength and a +2 Dex, so maybe take Agile Maneuvers.

Brutal Pugilist wrote:

She also is treated as one size larger than her actual size when determining whether she can grapple or be grappled by another creature.

I don't understand this at all! There are no size limits on who or what you can Grapple. Maybe they are referring to certain Grapple-Related things such as the Grab or Swallow Whole abilities.

When I make a Grappling character, my objective is to Tie Up my opponents. I consider 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent to be essential. The Level 2 Order Ability is Expert Captor, which lets you Tie Up your Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take the -10 you usually take when you do. So when you take Greater Grapple, when you begin the round adjacent to your opponent, you may Initiate your Grapple as a Standard Action, then Tie your opponent Up as a Move Action.

So, how do you pump up your Grapple Mod?

Armbands of the Brawler: +1 Competence bonus, 500gp
Belts of ST & Dex: +2 enhancement to St or Dex Mod, 4000gp
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: +2, untyped, 1 Maneuver, 4000gp
Cracked, Pale, Green Prism Ioun Stone: +1 Competence Bonus, Attack Rolls, 4000gp
Adhesive Armor Enchantment: +2 enhancement bonus to Grapple, 7000gp
Thorny Ioun Stone: +2 Competence Bonus on a Combat Maneuver, 8000gp
The Brawling Armor Enchantment has just been made a +3 equivalent. It's great, but you won't be able to afford it any time soon. Probably better just to get your Mithril, Spiked, Agile Breastplate, and forget about the Brawling Enchantment.

Weapon Enchantments: Grappling is normally considered to be done without a weapon, so you normally wouldn't get a bonus. But if you take Hamatula Strike and use a magic, piercing weapon, you do get the bonus. The Amulet of Mighty Fists does not enhance Grapple Checks as such, but if you have a Natural Attack with the Grab Ability, then maybe you are using your Natural Attack to Grapple, so you do get the AoMF bonus.

Ring of Protection: Doesn't enhance your CMB, but it does enhance your CMD.

For taking levels in Classes, the fastest advancement to your GMB is in 4 levels in Alchemist. You only get a +3 to your BAB, but there are 2 Alchemal Discoveries: Tentacle. Gives you Grab, +4 on all check, and the Tumor Familiar. Get a King Crab: +2 on all Grapple Checks. So, +9 4 levels. Plus, Alchemal Mutagens can increase either your ST or Dex by +4, an Alchemal bonus that will stack with all those other bonuses, including things like Bull Strength and Cat's Grace, which Alchemists also get.

So, Potion Glutton Feat. Per RAW, this allows you to take Alchemal Extracts, "any potable," with Swift Actions, but some GMs hate it so much they just won't allow it, even PFS GMs who are supposed to abide by RAW. If you have a GM, check with him.

Your favorite Alchemal Extract is True Strike: +20 on your next Attack Roll, including Grapple Checks. The problem is, to Tie Up your Ancient Black Dragon in 1 round, you need to make 2 successful Checks. So one solution is to cast True Strike on yourself, perhaps with a Wand, and approach the Dragon (in the way that one does). Then you Initiate your Grapple as a Standard Action, take an Extract as a Swift Action, then Tie Up the Dragon as a Move Action.

If you are worried about what your GM will say about Potion Glutton, then there is another way. There is the Alchemal Extract Touch Injection. Touch Injection lets you charge your hand with another Extract or Poison or something that you can administer to your target with an Attack Roll. But the Tumor Familiar can use Shared Spells with Extracts just as other casters can use it with their Spells. Charge your Familiar's Claws with True Strike via Touch Injection, then after you Initiate the Grapple as a Standard Action, your Familiar Injects you with True Strike as a Readied Action, then you Tie Up your Dragon as a Move Action. Now all you need is strong enough rope....

Here's another interesting idea. Take a level in White Haired Witch. White Hair is a Primary Natural Attack with which you can make a Free Grapple Check with Every Hit, and when you have someone Grappled in your White Hair, you are not Grappled yourself! Moreover, there is no stated limit as to how many people you might have Grappled in your hair at once: one of the greatest shortcomings of Grappling is that you can usually only Grapple 1 opponent/round because of the action economy, but not any more! I'm thinking you take Great Cleave and Grapple every adjacent opponent as a Standard Action, the Tie Up one of them as a Move Action. Maybe take Rapid Grappler, and Tie Up a 3rd as a Swift Action. So, the fact that you are not Grappled yourself means you can still make Attacks of Opportunity. Lets say you take a couple of levels in Eldritch Guardian Fighter and get yourself a Protector Familiar. Make your Cavalier Teamwork Feat Paired Opportunist. Then whenever you are attacked, your Protector Familiar uses Bodyguard to take an Attack of Opportunity to improve your AC, then because you both have PO, you get an Attack of Opportunity, too. Take it with your Hair, and you can Grapple even more oppponents or Tie Up ones that attack you, as in make Grapple checks to free themselves!

Jasevaati Hskori wrote:

If I can put a competent build together, I'm doing it.

I think this just might be possible.

[Saethori]

If investing in levels in Monk, I suggest the Tetori archetype, as it is perfect for grappling and gets a lot of useful tricks that sound both useful and fun to envision for halfling wrestlers.

I assume, of course, that remaining small while grappling is important to you, instead of "grapples while happening to technically be a halfling".

[Gwen Smith]

Tetori monk makes a great grappler overall, and halflings do a really good job with grapplers.

First, remember that grappling does not any size limitation (unless your GM house rules otherwise).

Second, Cautious Defender doubles the dodge bonus to AC and CMD when you fight defensively.

Third, the favored class bonus for halfling monks is +1 CMD vs. Grapple. That lets you pump your CMD to stupid levels pretty quickly, and no one can make the grapple check to break out.

Tetoris get all the grappling feats free as class features.

I have a 10th level halfling tetori, and unbuffed, she has +27 CMB and +45 CMD. Buffed, fighting defensively, and spending a ki point, she can pump her CMD to 57 with still a +27 CMB. (She has attack bonus buffs that counter the penalty for fighting defensively.)

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

[Woodoodoo]

Care to share your build Gwen? I am very interested in this as well.

[Divvox2]

Using Dan Bongs allows you to grapple with weapons, and they grant you a +2 to grapple, but no enchantments to the weapon will increase this bonus.

If you want to do a build without multi-classing so heavily, I recommend Brawler.
-You get bonuses to combat maneuvers from class abilities
-Your primary mode of attack is unarmed, meeting grapple requirements
-You get a lot of feats from the class which lets you travel down the grappling feat tree rapidly
-Your FCB grants a +1/level to your CMD vs. grappling and overrun (this also means you can hold off on Str/Dex belts and get a Str/Con belt to make sure you can survive punishment that comes from grappling).
-Situational adaptability is superior to practically any other similar class due to Martial Flexibility (particularly once you hit 6th level and beyond).
-Increased damage output
-The flexibility to "retrain" your class granted combat feats later on, which means you can adapt for higher level play every 3 levels.
-Ability to overcome DR without dumping money into weaponry (which means more enhancement-focused items!)
-Superior "flurry" ability that lets you take feats based on TWF (only usable during a round you flurry) which also grants lots of extra attacks.
-X/day knockout ability to quiet down those pesky mages.

At level 13 my PFS brawler has low 30's CMB for grapple, mid-30's for Disarm, and ~30 for everything else. His CMD for grapple is in the low 50's. I have lots of other shenanigans, but the short of it is the class is insanely flexible and deadly. I never multi-classed for this character.

Brawling enhancement to light armor is spendy... but so worth it if you're doing unarmed fighting as the bonuses to grapple, disarm, trip, sunder, unarmed to-hit bonus, and unarmed damage are amazing. Nothing you'll be able to afford for a bit, but something to consider depending on how high the game goes.

[claudekennilol]

Gwen Smith wrote:

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

What book is this deity from?

[Arutema]

claudekennilol wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

What book is this deity from?

I believe that's a typo for Falayna, empyreal lord of woman warriors from Chronicles of the Righteous. It is a sacred bonus, rather than untyped however, and if I'm reading it right, applies only on grapple for the CMB portion. (But that's the whole point of the build.)

Her obedience is punching a practice dummy for an hour, so not hard to work into your daily prep.

[claudekennilol]

Arutema wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

What book is this deity from?

I believe that's a typo for Falayna, empyreal lord of woman warriors from Chronicles of the Righteous. It is a sacred bonus, rather than untyped however, and if I'm reading it right, applies only on grapple for the CMB portion. (But that's the whole point of the build.)

Her obedience is punching a practice dummy for an hour, so not hard to work into your daily prep.

What does the obedience explicitly say?

[Imbicatus]

claudekennilol wrote:

Arutema wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

What book is this deity from?

I believe that's a typo for Falayna, empyreal lord of woman warriors from Chronicles of the Righteous. It is a sacred bonus, rather than untyped however, and if I'm reading it right, applies only on grapple for the CMB portion. (But that's the whole point of the build.)

Her obedience is punching a practice dummy for an hour, so not hard to work into your daily prep.

What does the obedience explicitly say?

Don a jeweled ring on each finger and strike a practice dummy barehanded until the impression of the rings is left in your skin. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on grapple checks and to CMD

[Arutema]

claudekennilol wrote:

Arutema wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

What book is this deity from?

I believe that's a typo for Falayna, empyreal lord of woman warriors from Chronicles of the Righteous. It is a sacred bonus, rather than untyped however, and if I'm reading it right, applies only on grapple for the CMB portion. (But that's the whole point of the build.)

Her obedience is punching a practice dummy for an hour, so not hard to work into your daily prep.

What does the obedience explicitly say?

Quote:

Obedience: Don a jeweled ring on each finger and strike a practice dummy barehanded until the impression of the rings is left in your skin. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on grapple checks and to CMD.

Ninja'd.

[Atarlost]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So, Halflings do get a -1 Size Mod on Combat Maneuvers, but they get a +1 on Attack Rolls, and the Grapple Combat Maneuver is an Attack Roll.

They don't cancel, you just apply the maneuver bonus or penalty. If you have any Paizo publication for Pathfinder with non-medium statblocks you can break down the CMB/CDM for yourself. Large and larger creatures get the size bonus to maneuvers and not the size penalty to attack rolls on maneuvers. Small and smaller creatures get the size penalty to maneuvers and not the size bonus to attack rolls on maneuvers.

[claudekennilol]

Imbicatus wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

What does the obedience explicitly say?

Don a jeweled ring on each finger and strike a practice dummy barehanded until the impression of the rings is left in your skin. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on grapple checks and to CMD

Ah yeah.. That definitely isn't an "untyped bonus to CMB"

[Imbicatus]

claudekennilol wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

No matter what you do with your grapple build, consider worshipping Falyna. Her celestial obedience gives you +4 untyped bonus to CMB and CMD.

What does the obedience explicitly say?

Don a jeweled ring on each finger and strike a practice dummy barehanded until the impression of the rings is left in your skin. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on grapple checks and to CMD

Ah yeah.. That definitely isn't an "untyped bonus to CMB"

No, but it's pretty strong. There aren't that many sacred bonuses to cmb to compete with it, and being grapple only isn't a downside if that's your speciality.

[claudekennilol]

Imbicatus wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Ah yeah.. That definitely isn't an "untyped bonus to CMB"

No, but it's pretty strong. There aren't that many sacred bonuses to cmb to compete with it, and being grapple only isn't a downside if that's your speciality.

Definitely true, within the context of this thread it's a super viable option. I was just dismayed because my monk has already invested in kn: religion and has an open feat in his build plan (that deific obedience would've fit right into), but he does not specialize in grapple so it won't work for him. (Dirty Trick / Disarm, if anyone is interested in)

[Divvox2]

claudekennilol wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Ah yeah.. That definitely isn't an "untyped bonus to CMB"

No, but it's pretty strong. There aren't that many sacred bonuses to cmb to compete with it, and being grapple only isn't a downside if that's your speciality.

Definitely true, within the context of this thread it's a super viable option. I was just dismayed because my monk has already invested in kn: religion and has an open feat in his build plan (that deific obedience would've fit right into), but he does not specialize in grapple so it won't work for him. (Dirty Trick / Disarm, if anyone is interested in)

Eh, I find disarm to be immensely more satisfying, and dirty trick is massively useful.

[Imbicatus]

Just never disarm lizardmen. Going from club/bite to claw/claw/bite is not a tactical improvement.