Tired builds


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

@ superman and power plays and what not, i'd just like to point out the movies themselves often revolve around what isn't perfect about them.

Stark is a billionaire with a past in weapons dealing and him destroying all the equipment in that one scene is symbolically him defeating his past, showing that he can try to overcome it.

Superman is almost always about how superman is trying to fit in, his secret identity isn't superman, it's Clark Kent, he's super powerful but to him that doesn't matter, he's always trying to fit in and do the right thing.

And that's the point, neither of those heroes are interesting because of their powers but because of their faults, and that's the thing movies and literature, you don't win all the time, but in PnP games you need to always succeed and this is the fundamental rift in the system, it promotes good play but not good story telling.

@ Darksouls, you miss understand, DamnNoHtml is a prominent PvPer, but people often complain he's not fun to watch because he always uses "OP" weapons and plays passively. To which he replies it doesn't make sense for him to intentionally nerf himself when he just want's to play.

he's become more popular when he started doing showman type stuff, like using only specific weapons and what not.


HeHateMe wrote:

I'm not a big fan of the Oracle class either, and I absolutely hate the Curse mechanic. That said, the curses aren't all completely debilitating, some of them really don't have that big of a negative impact.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you'd want a deaf/mute guy around if he could magically make any injury, disease or toxin go away instantaneously.

I'm a fan of the following simple Oracle archetype, courtesy Ashiel:

Curse-less Oracle:
At first level, the Curseless Oracle does not select a Curse. The Curseless Oracle gains none of the benefits of the Curse class feature, nor do they gain the drawbacks. This modifies Curse.


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As someone who plays a lot of Oracles I wouldn't mind that archetype. Honestly the hardest part of playing an Oracle is picking a curse that fits but doesn't completely gimp you. Most of them either make the game a lot less fun to play or have barely any negative impact if you play smart.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

yeah, some curses are just kinda the thing you'll never really want to get in serious play.


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Bandw2 wrote:

@ superman and power plays and what not, i'd just like to point out the movies themselves often revolve around what isn't perfect about them.

Stark is a billionaire with a past in weapons dealing and him destroying all the equipment in that one scene is symbolically him defeating his past, showing that he can try to overcome it.

And that's the point, neither of those heroes are interesting because of their powers but because of their faults, and that's the thing movies and literature, you don't win all the time, but in PnP games you need to always succeed and this is the fundamental rift in the system, it promotes good play but not good story telling.

That's not an opinion I share. Superman is about hope. What I find interesting about Superman is his dedication to good and the way he inspires people to be better.

I'm big comics fan. I'm a big fan of Superman. He breaks the monotony of the old story of good guys struggling against powerful evil (because evil is always stronger than good right?) and shows that good and evil don't mean weak and strong. But it's not strength that matters, it's what you do with it. The best superman stories are the ones like All-star superman where you see him doing as much as he can to help and inspire. Panels like THIS are what makes Superman, Superman.

I'm 100% with Xerres. My favorite parts of Superman movies is when disaster strikes, the people are overcome with fear because they know how this is going to end... and then somebody spots that S-shaped shield and knows there's still hope.

Bandw2 wrote:
but in PnP games you need to always succeed

What? Why?

I've seen campaigns end where the party died and half the world got blown up. I've seen campaigns where the party tpk's at level 5. Evil cleric summons the elder evil and wins because the party died and didn't stop him. That's a wrap, roll new characters for the next story.

How does your group keep tension in the story if they already know they're going to win? If the party does bad you gotta let them lose.

And never bluff. Don't put a gun to anything in the story if you're not willing to pull the trigger. If you tell the party that if they don't stop a ritual in 3 days then the city of Silverhorn will be destroyed, then 3 days later when they still haven't put the clues together that city needs to be a crater. If bad guys capture an NPC but the party decides to go do something else for a bit instead of giving chase, then that NPC is dead.

I'm honestly not sure how I would keep tension in a game without failure....


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Thaine wrote:


Bandw2 wrote:
but in PnP games you need to always succeed

What? Why?

I've seen campaigns end where the party died and half the world got blown up. I've seen campaigns where the party tpk's at level 5. Evil cleric summons the elder evil and wins because the party died and didn't stop him. That's a wrap, roll new characters for the next story.

How does your group keep tension in the story if they already know they're going to win? If the party does bad you gotta let them lose.

And never bluff. Don't put a gun to anything in the story if you're not willing to pull the trigger. If you tell the party that if they don't stop a ritual in 3 days then the city of Silverhorn will be destroyed, then 3 days later when they still haven't put the clues together that city needs to be a crater. If bad guys capture an NPC but the party decides to go do something else for a bit instead of giving chase, then that NPC is dead.

I'm honestly not sure how I would keep tension in a game without failure....

if the "reward" for failure is a new game, I don't think I could invest in the game at all, and that's the point, in PnP games you don't get anything from tension.

The point is, the party all dying, is a bad story, especially if it happens simply because they weren't good enough, that just means the GM 1 wasted his time creating the world and 2 the players wasted their time creating the characters. Like I said, the system emphasizes winning.

Doomsday scenarios with timers in general only work in film and cinema because you know exactly when writing it, whether the hero succeeds or doesn't.

@ the superman thing, that's my point, superman's interesting feature isn't that he was powerful, it's his ability to lead and do the right thing, even with all that power. If you had Saitama in the place of superman, no one would care, as he puts it, "he's a hero for fun" and he defeats everything in a single punch unless he pulls his punches. He literally only does hero work to pay for rent and to try to defeat his boredom.

Superman gives us a show, of this figure of ultimate good, it doesn't matter how strong he is, just that he is uncompromising good.


Honestly I think the only curses with real problems are Blind, Deaf, and wrecker.

Tongues is usually my go to curse. Wasting is easy if you don't want to be the face and Blackend is good if your playing as a caster and starting at higher levels. Lame isn't bad either, if 20ft movement bothers you grab a wand of longstrider.

Legalistic is a good one for paladins. I don't like haunted but it's doable...definitely a pain though.


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See here's my problem, most of the less problematic curses are boring to play with.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Claxon wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Spellbane wrote:
fighter/barbarian builds with 2hander weapons who decimate everything in their path.

Until they fail their Will Save and turn on the party.

I've seen enough of those!

Honestly, that's not really an overused "build" IMO. You can't even call it a "build". It's the bare bones of melee character. Strength, two-handed weapon, power attack.

This is really due to the fact that two weapon fighting is generally worse than the two handing (unless you build for it really well) due to the problem of moving and only being able to make 1 attack and because of the attack penalties from TWF and because you have to spend more feats to get the extra attacks. Unless your class gives you a lot of flat bonuses to attack and damage TWF is usually worse. This isn't so much a build issue as it is a problem of the mechanics of the system.

There's too much reason to go two-handed. It's easy to do. New players will have a harder time screwing it up. And every feat you don't spend making TWF decent can instead go towards increasing your options through access to combat maneuvers, better skills, or as a big one, upping your saving throws.

There's a reason why Fate's Favored, Sacred Tattoo, and the Superstitious power are so popular. Failing saves sucks. Few people are happy when the barbarian suddenly gets dominated and murders the rest of the party. But a player who has to sit out the game for an hour because they fail a save against a paralyzing effect is even worse, IMO.

It's why Forbid Action is better to throw at players than Command. Give them the ability to still do SOMETHING, even if it isn't their main thing.


Thaine wrote:


What? Why?

I've seen campaigns end where the party died and half the world got blown up. I've seen campaigns where the party tpk's at level 5. Evil cleric summons the elder evil and wins because the party died and didn't stop him. That's a wrap, roll new characters for...

You could always ramp it up by declaring no adventures will ever be played again! Just toss those books out. Are they hard-core enough to take the risk?


137ben wrote:
And yet, no other game company is able to get away with saying "it doesn't matter if the game we released is horrible or even if it works, because players can just fix it." None. If any other game company puts out a game with a critical bug that prevents it from running at all, then either the developers fix it or no one buys the game and it loses money. If any other game company puts out a game which is poorly designed to the point where players don't enjoy it as it is, the developers either make it better or the game loses money. Paizo is the only company that can put out a book and say "pay us for a game we haven't written, and then YOU write the game yourself!" And Paizo can get away with it because customers don't hold Paizo to the standard that every other entertainment company ever are held to.

Counter-example: Games Workshop.

HyperMissingno wrote:
Honestly the hardest part of playing an Oracle is picking a curse that fits but doesn't completely gimp you. Most of them either make the game a lot less fun to play or have barely any negative impact if you play smart.

I think part of the problem here is that Paizo haven't added that many new Curses since the APG was released. I'd've expected a couple in Ultimate Magic at the very least, but a flick through the SRD shows four Player Companion or Campaign Setting softbacks, as well as the Monster Codex, adding a grand total of 11 Curses to the game, three of which are restricted to specific races.


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dysartes wrote:
Counter-example: Games Workshop.

Also Wizards of the Coast. Fifth Edition's marketing campaign has actually tried to spin the fact that it's an unfinished mess as a good thing.


swoosh wrote:
dysartes wrote:
Counter-example: Games Workshop.
Also Wizards of the Coast. Fifth Edition's marketing campaign has actually tried to spin the fact that it's an unfinished mess as a good thing.

I've actually found 5e's rules hang together quite well. In a number of places I find the game considerably better-designed than 3rd, in fact.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
swoosh wrote:
dysartes wrote:
Counter-example: Games Workshop.
Also Wizards of the Coast. Fifth Edition's marketing campaign has actually tried to spin the fact that it's an unfinished mess as a good thing.
I've actually found 5e's rules hang together quite well. In a number of places I find the game considerably better-designed than 3rd, in fact.

Agreed. I like how 5E acknowledges that there is a DM at the table to handle corner cases. This prevents the Paizo problem where they issue rules to cover a corner case that go on to effect systems or other options that were just fine.

On the other hand I like playing pathfinder society and have heard that it's a better experience then the usual Adventurer's League game. I suppose 5E makes for a better home game and Pathfinder makes a better game for organized play.


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Blackwaltzomega wrote:
swoosh wrote:
dysartes wrote:
Counter-example: Games Workshop.
Also Wizards of the Coast. Fifth Edition's marketing campaign has actually tried to spin the fact that it's an unfinished mess as a good thing.
I've actually found 5e's rules hang together quite well. In a number of places I find the game considerably better-designed than 3rd, in fact.

I'm not sure better designed is the right word. It's clean, but the trouble with 5e is that it isn't designed at all. A good half of the book is "Well the GM should just make it up, I guess." 'Rules light' and 'more flexible' just end up feeling like codephrases for developer laziness, at least in that instance.


swoosh wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:
swoosh wrote:
dysartes wrote:
Counter-example: Games Workshop.
Also Wizards of the Coast. Fifth Edition's marketing campaign has actually tried to spin the fact that it's an unfinished mess as a good thing.
I've actually found 5e's rules hang together quite well. In a number of places I find the game considerably better-designed than 3rd, in fact.
I'm not sure better designed is the right word. It's clean, but the trouble with 5e is that it isn't designed at all. A good half of the book is "Well the GM should just make it up, I guess." 'Rules light' and 'more flexible' just end up feeling like codephrases for developer laziness, at least in that instance.

It depends on what you see in it. One of the problems with third was that once a rule was made for something, it always seemed to involve a feat to pull off with any reasonable chance of success. Where you see 'not designed at all', someone else might see 'not micromanaged into unplayability.'

MY gaming group has people with both viewpoints. One GM, after running 5th, isn't ever going to try and run anything 3rd ever again, while another isn't willing to run anything but since he likes the multitude of options.

My primary complaint with 5th is I'd like some more archetypes available for each class - but at least the Unearthed Arcana stuff they present every few months helps on that end.


Paradozen wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
Not to sound like an old man yelling at kids out on the lawn, but it seems that rolepayers today are moving to either rules-light systems or the never ending theory crafting to get the extra oomph out of XYZ build, without considering the other side to the rules set, making a memorable character through roleplaying.
Why do you think those two are mutually exclusive at all?
This. You know that Kitsune Sorcerer in the party that makes the system crumble under her feet? Actually a super memorable character. Just as memorable as the dwarf bard.
Not at all. That Kitsune Sorcerer is merely a rules manipulation, not anywhere near as memorable as a dwarf bard with a fun roleplaying set.
What makes you think the Kitsune Sorcerer doesn't have a fun roleplaying set?

Because crushing the system almost always involves a mechanic exploit rather then a fun roleplaying hook. If you're going to add in a good roleplaying hook, then it isn't as much of an issue. As for grognard deliberately playing a unoptimized character vs min-max piece, it's a pretty valid comparison for tired builds. If I am making any character for any game system, and it's not squeezing out every possible erg of skill or DPS or magic use etc, then it's as valid as super feat engineered man for character purposes, depending on the campaign style. If you're just hack and slashing your way with any type of interaction being only on the tactical level, then why bother with any type of roleplaying hook. Now you're just playing a low-grade MMO with some more options. If you're actually doing this thing called interaction, 2nd to 3rd dimensional thinking, and roleplaying along with some combat, then hooks, story and ability to act become more important.

But if you want other tired builds, the lawful stupid paladin or the sacred fist warpriest. I see at least one of these every Pbp or 20 game I've be in or scanned for interest. Or clerics of Sarenrae with fire domain. Yeah for fireball 9 times over...


Also another game company that doesn't listen to its player base, Palladium Books. And most games made or distributed by EA, unless its a sports or shooter game.

As for a curseless oracle, that denies the basic idea of the class. You're a vessel by choice or by accident, for a divine force (or groups of a divine force), that channels power from that force. The curse is one of the better examples of where mechanics can drive the establishment of roleplaying, whether you're deaf and need to communicate with everyone via telepathy or sign language or writing, or have tongues and requre some form of interpreter, and so on. If you want a spontaneous caster for divine, the inquisitor is a nice change, or you may have to 3rd party for a full 9 level cleric equivalent.


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Favored Soul for 3.5 was basically Oracle minus the curse, a divine sorcerer.


stormcrow27 wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
What makes you think the Kitsune Sorcerer doesn't have a fun roleplaying set?
Because crushing the system almost always involves a mechanic exploit rather then a fun roleplaying hook. If you're going to add in a good roleplaying hook, then it isn't as much of an issue. As for grognard deliberately playing a unoptimized character vs min-max piece, it's a pretty valid comparison for tired builds. If I am making any character for any game system, and it's not squeezing out every possible erg of skill or DPS or magic use etc, then it's as valid as super feat engineered man for character purposes, depending on the campaign style. If you're just hack and slashing your way with any type of interaction being only on the tactical level, then why bother with any type of roleplaying hook. Now you're just playing a low-grade MMO with some more options. If you're actually doing this thing called interaction, 2nd to 3rd dimensional thinking, and roleplaying along with some combat, then hooks, story and ability to act become more important.

Okay, maybe I'm missing something:

what about a kitsune sorcerer is "crushing the system?"


MannyGoblin wrote:
Favored Soul for 3.5 was basically Oracle minus the curse, a divine sorcerer.

And more MAD - they used one stat for spell DC and a different one for bonus spells.


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stormcrow27 wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
Not to sound like an old man yelling at kids out on the lawn, but it seems that rolepayers today are moving to either rules-light systems or the never ending theory crafting to get the extra oomph out of XYZ build, without considering the other side to the rules set, making a memorable character through roleplaying.
Why do you think those two are mutually exclusive at all?
This. You know that Kitsune Sorcerer in the party that makes the system crumble under her feet? Actually a super memorable character. Just as memorable as the dwarf bard.
Not at all. That Kitsune Sorcerer is merely a rules manipulation, not anywhere near as memorable as a dwarf bard with a fun roleplaying set.
What makes you think the Kitsune Sorcerer doesn't have a fun roleplaying set?

Because crushing the system almost always involves a mechanic exploit rather then a fun roleplaying hook. If you're going to add in a good roleplaying hook, then it isn't as much of an issue. As for grognard deliberately playing a unoptimized character vs min-max piece, it's a pretty valid comparison for tired builds. If I am making any character for any game system, and it's not squeezing out every possible erg of skill or DPS or magic use etc, then it's as valid as super feat engineered man for character purposes, depending on the campaign style. If you're just hack and slashing your way with any type of interaction being only on the tactical level, then why bother with any type of roleplaying hook. Now you're just playing a low-grade MMO with some more options. If you're actually doing this thing called interaction, 2nd to 3rd dimensional thinking, and roleplaying along with some combat, then hooks, story and ability to act become more important.

But if you want other tired builds, the lawful stupid paladin or the sacred fist warpriest. I see at least one of these every Pbp or 20 game I've be in...

I'm sorry, but this is almost complete gibberish. I've read over it several times and I don't understand what you're even trying to say at all.

That said, I will point out the "MMO! MMO! MMO!" thing that people bring up, because I'm not sure why people immediately settle on that as a criticism.

An MMO is a game that assumes all of the players should have the same capacity to interact with the game world, outside of their class's abilities. I don't see how that's a bad thing. People cry and whine about hack'n'slash, but you are also being extremely disingenuous if you look at the design of the fighter and the design of the bard and then tell me one wasn't designed to interact with the game world in more and better ways than the other. The fighter's design, in and out, is "use big stick to defeat enemy." The bard is designed to make someone else's stick bigger, heal and protect, handle social encounters, sneak around, etc, etc.

In an MMO there aren't entire types of monsters that the tank and the striker can't do a damn thing about while the mage can eliminate them with ease. In an MMO one class set doesn't have access to entire modes of transportation others don't.

Pathfinder might be better off if it gave more thought to making sure there aren't entire dimensions of interaction with the game world locked off by class unless the GM decides to be Santa Claus with magical items.

Grey Lensman wrote:
MannyGoblin wrote:
Favored Soul for 3.5 was basically Oracle minus the curse, a divine sorcerer.
And more MAD - they used one stat for spell DC and a different one for bonus spells.

Frankly, I feel like that might be a better idea if more casters needed that.

The reason you see SAD characters with 40+ casting stats is that so much of what your character does is simply based on making that one number as high as you can. It's impossible for a wizard to have too much intelligence; the more intelligence he has, the more bonus spells, DC boosts, and skill ranks he's pulling down, to the point he can get enough skills and spells it barely matters what the rest of his stats are like.

If spell DC was determined by a different stat, you'd see a better spread amongst casty-types, much like how any frontliner needs STR and CON, and usually wants fairly good DEX on top of it.


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stormcrow27 wrote:
If you're just hack and slashing your way with any type of interaction being only on the tactical level, then why bother with any type of roleplaying hook. Now you're just playing a low-grade MMO with some more options. If you're actually doing this thing called interaction, 2nd to 3rd dimensional thinking, and roleplaying along with some combat, then hooks, story and ability to act become more important.

"Powergamers ought to just play video games because they're too stupid for ROLEplaying". Yeah, I've heard all this before, and no one has been able to give an actual reason why building a powerful character means you can't do all that stuff you mentioned.


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stormcrow27 wrote:
Because crushing the system almost always involves a mechanic exploit rather then a fun roleplaying hook. If you're going to add in a good roleplaying hook, then it isn't as much of an issue.

So, why then do you assume a kitsune fey sorcerer has a better roleplaying hook than a dwarf bard? Because one is better mechanically and thus cannot be as good for roleplay? Like this?

EDIT:Grammar is hard.


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I like how stormcrow completely ignored me saying that the kitsune sorcerer had a good roleplaying hook.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:

...

The reason you see SAD characters with 40+ casting stats is that so much of what your character does is simply based on making that one number as high as you can. It's impossible for a wizard to have too much intelligence; the more intelligence he has, the more bonus spells, DC boosts, and skill ranks he's pulling down, to the point he can get enough skills and spells it barely matters what the rest of his stats are like.

If spell DC was determined by a different stat, you'd see a better spread amongst casty-types, much like how any frontliner needs STR and CON, and usually wants fairly good DEX on top of it.

I really doubt that you will see a massive improvement in stat spreads.

What you are far more likely to see is buffing, battlefield control, summoning and utility becoming even more dominant as casting strategies. We don't really need new players getting told "God wizard or GTFO".


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HyperMissingno wrote:
I like how stormcrow completely ignored me saying that the kitsune sorcerer had a good roleplaying hook.

I didn't ignore you. What I said was is that a character build for a rules exploit without any type of roleplaying hook is merely a rules exercise. If you have a decent roleplaying hook and your games support power builds with the other players able to remain competitive via good roleplaying/planning combined with their own power builds, then go for it. But creating a character just to destroy the system or be the super alpha creates a situation in which the GM has to constantly compete with said super player, and it leaves the rest of the group in the dust, especially if they have less rules knowledge or ability to manipulate the system. That's why I call those type of characters a tired build. The other part of my statement was for additional typical builds as per the request of the OP.


stormcrow27 wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
I like how stormcrow completely ignored me saying that the kitsune sorcerer had a good roleplaying hook.
But creating a character just to destroy the system or be the super alpha creates a situation in which the GM has to constantly compete with said super player, and it leaves the rest of the group in the dust, especially if they have less rules knowledge or ability to manipulate the system. That's why I call those type of characters a tired build. The other part of my statement was for additional typical builds as per the request of the OP.

Arcane full casters can break games on accident. Sorcerer (fey unless there's an actual kitsune bloodline released that I haven't seen because kitsune fill approximately the same mythological role as the fey in English myth) is the obvious class for a kitsune since they have a bonus to magic and a charisma bonus and fits the myth. Put your high stat in charisma and pick the obvious spells to take advantage of the kitsune's bonus to enchantments and bam the game is broken. No deep exploits or system mastery, just a race, the obvious CRB class for it, and the obvious CRB spells. It naturally leads you into some of the most gamebreaking magic around.

It's the one myth the game can do justice to since the kitsune of myth is typified by progress through levels tails that represent increased experience and power and unlike the Campbellian hero his or her myth arc isn't entirely about being the center of the story.


There is a kitsune bloodline but it's 3rd party. But enough. Time to move on to some campaign planning for future games of woe.


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I'm tired of how over powered (IMO) two handed STR builds are. All you need is a high STR a two handed weapon and Power Attack and your done. The two points of shield AC in a sword and board build doesn't make up to the noticeable dip in damage out put, and the feats needed for TWF in addition to excess money it costs and the 5' step game makes it not stack up, and finesse builds are a feat taxing joke!

Sczarni

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jeremiah dodson 812 wrote:
I'm tired of how over powered (IMO) two handed STR builds are. All you need is a high STR a two handed weapon and Power Attack and your done. The two points of shield AC in a sword and board build doesn't make up to the noticeable dip in damage out put, and the feats needed for TWF in addition to excess money it costs and the 5' step game makes it not stack up, and finesse builds are a feat taxing joke!

You're right. I think it's time Paizo hit the fighter with the nerf bat. Too op for my poor wizard, who just points and things die. Sometimes the fighter gets in the way, oops, too bad. Dead.

Don't you worry your little head about two handed or sword and board. Everyone knows that polearms are superior, two-handed with power attack and reach! Dare you charge the fighter's prowess?

I highly recommend playing a 5th level rouge. Just five levels, you can literally multiclass into anything else that has full BAB. I suggest unchained monk, so you can have AC while running around nak--with a loincloth. Wanna see something overpowered? Surprise, it's you, friend!

You want to start human to come online in destruction mode earlier. Pick up Thug and Scout archetype (Don't worry, nobody builds traps anyway). Be unchained for free dex to damage and weapon finesse. Get Sap adept first level, and if you want, pick up the Enforcer feat early. Level 2, pick up Unarmed Combat training from the ninja trick as your rogue talent. Level 3, pick up Knockout artist and start using your fist instead of a sap, and select your fist as your dex to damage weapon of choice. Level 4, you can combat trick for TWF, for those occasions where you sneak attack and full attack a guy twice, in the nuts. Level 5, pick up Sap Master and you're done.

So is everything else. Let the fighter with his big sword handle undead and the like. You'll be dishing out 6d6+9+whatever your dex is (and might get the second hit in for another 6d6+9+DEX) whenever you charge. Then you just flex your god reflexes and send them running away, frightened. I don't know of any npc that has 12d6+18+DEXx2 hitpoints. Knock them out, space cowboy.

Liberty's Edge

LittleMissNaga wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Honestly at around level 8 or so most fights are 3 rounds or shorter unless a big enemy comes into the fight in the middle of it.
Definitely-possibly a table-by-table thing. I'm GM for a party that's actually at 8th level right now. They average a dozen or so rounds, usually. Maybe a bit less. Last session's fights were 12 rounds, 19 rounds, 8 rounds, 1 round, and 10 rounds. Only that last one had a big enemy show up towards the end (made them take maybe 4 rounds more). Fast fights are not the norm here.

Yikes! 19 rounds! Is everyone just built really defensively or something? All defense and no offense? I don't understand how one side or the other wouldn't have died off by then. The only cases that occur to me are: (i) Speedy stealthy enemies who attack once and then turn invisible again and run off into the distance; (ii) (Similar) Enemies who dim door away when hurt, only to come back later; (iii) Enemies crowd control almost everyone so it was just one guy fighting them for 19 rounds while everyone else was held.


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jeremiah dodson 812 wrote:
I'm tired of how over powered (IMO) two handed STR builds are. All you need is a high STR a two handed weapon and Power Attack and your done. The two points of shield AC in a sword and board build doesn't make up to the noticeable dip in damage out put, and the feats needed for TWF in addition to excess money it costs and the 5' step game makes it not stack up, and finesse builds are a feat taxing joke!

stop using sarcasm on the internet, developers might think you were being serious :P

in all seriousness more strength related options would be nice. Strength to Acrobatics seems realistic enough, a Strength based Recurve Bow would make sense, Intimidating Prowess should be a trait, Strength to Ride could totally be a trait, and a Strength caster would just be hilarious and fun to watch and play if done right, just think Alex Louis Armstrong from FMA.


Frogsplosion wrote:
...a Strength caster would just be hilarious and fun to watch and play if done right, just think Alex Louis Armstrong from FMA.

He's a charisma-based caster who happens to have an incredibly high strength. Think bloodrager or eldrich scion. :-D


oops delete pls


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Frogsplosion wrote:
...a Strength caster would just be hilarious and fun to watch and play if done right, just think Alex Louis Armstrong from FMA.
He's a charisma-based caster who happens to have an incredibly high strength. Think bloodrager or eldrich scion. :-D

what? he looks good sure but his actual interactions with people outside of a few remarkable occasions are pretty bad, and he's socially awkward in a huge way, I'd say he's more intelligent than charismatic.


Another example of a strength based caster, anyone with hamon or a stand in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.


I'm tired of high level martial NPCs who are supposed to be generals but have an Int of 8 or 10, especially in good aligned or civilized organizations/nations. Maybe the ability to beat things up real good shouldn't lead to a position that most requires strategic decision making, good judgment, and knowledge of tactics, supply, military history, etc.?

Liberty's Edge

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Rawr! Play a Cthulhu mythos monster. Are you "The Blackness from the Stars" or maybe "Cxaxukluth"? You decide!

You have evangelist spliced in to help with your BAB. Even if all of the STR-based fighting ends out sucking, at least you will have a 9th level caster to fall back on.

I particularly like the irony of a mutant monster worshipping Irori. You should talk about "physical perfection" and "the end result of evolution" when you transform into your winged, clawed, rubbery monstrosity. Don't forget to come out with the occasional "Praise Irori" as your unspeakable winged aquatic body claws and bites some do-gooder.

Also note that with Irori you get imp unarmed strike. So make sure you do all of your natural attacks and then hit them with other limbs as your unarmed strikes. If a DM says you don't have other limbs, mention your wings, your feet, and your multiple eyes (each of which is on an eye-stalk so that it can eye-bump someone.)

Note that you don't actually need a phrenic pool because you are choosing everything on the mutant monstrosity side.

Oh yeah, and at least you have summon monster to fall back on... AND I dare someone to call you a "tired build" (no fair mentioning the crash after you change back...that joke was already done with barbarians.)

Also note that with Irori evangelist and rebirth you are a real skill monkey even though you only have 14 int, like a serious skill monkey...

Mutation Mind Psychic X, Evangelist 10

N

Worship Irori

Traits:
* Reactionary Initiative (Combat): +2 initiative

* Sound of Mind(Regional): You gain a +2 trait bonus on saves against mind-affecting effects

http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Irori

Rebirth discipline

Oread

STR: 20 (always increase at 4,8, etc)
DEX: 7
CON: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 9
CHA: 5

Bonuses:
STR already has bonus that does not stack. So get con belts and int headbands.

Feats/Disciplines:
1. Toughness
3. Bite Attack, Extra Phr (Claws)
5. Deific Obedience--Irori
7. Medium Armor Proficiency
8. Rubbery
9. Heavy Armor Proficiency
11. Extra Phr Amp (Enlarged Body)
12. Recuperation
13. Extra Phr Amp (Wings)
15. Extra Phr Amp (Aquatic Form)
16. Multiple Eyes

Skills:
Perception, Lots of knowledge since proficient in all

Level:
Mutation mind 5
Evangelist 10
Mutation mind 5

Spells:
Summon monster

PS: PFS legal, I think. Knock people out at the local game store.

PPS: Slight bit of fiddling: (i) Extra Amplication feat mentions "You gain one additional phrenic amplification. This can't be a major amplification." (ii) Mutation mind states "Starting at 3rd level, whenever a mutation mind gains a phrenic amplification, she can select either a phrenic amplification or a bodily mutation." and (iii) "At 11th level, a mutation mind can select one of the following improved bodily mutations instead of a phrenic amplification." SO THEREFORE by RAW you can take the improved bodily mutations with extra amplification after 11th level even though you can't take a major amplification. Argue for all you are worth with your GM.

PPPS: Don't worry about the "Phrenic Empowerment" "feature" that is actually a poison pill. You have no phrenic amplifications, so it never comes up. You only have bodily mutations.

PPPPS: You have "multiple eyes". Don't forget to rolepay the spookiness of this.

PPPPPS: I really wanted to do Pschedelia for the confusion aura for this. That would really help with the effect of people looking at you and going, "This...this...can't be happening! Arghhh!" and then attacking their neighbor. Ultimately, however, I powergamed and chose rebirth. If you want to demonstrate to everyone that you are decidedly NOT a powergamer, choose psychedelia instead.

PPPPPPS: I have not played this with my local gaming group yet, since I don't want to get lynched. Please do let me know if you actually play it.

PPPPPPPS: For those poor deluded people who think a 5 CHA is a dump stat--You are a rubbery winged aquatic creature with multiple eyes and a bite and claws. Are they seriously going to claim you have a high charisma?

PPPPPPPPS: Dex dump stat! Don't see that often, do you? Since you are (depending upon the reading of things) going to be two size categories larger than normal, you can basically take it as given that people will hit you. You need to hope that your spells give you other means of defense (aside from toughness and heavy armor.)


MannyGoblin wrote:
Favored Soul for 3.5 was basically Oracle minus the curse, a divine sorcerer.

Hush now. We can't have anyone spreading rumors that content in a Paizo product might have originated from non-Paizo sources. To suggest otherwise would imply that it was not Crafted by the Glorious Divine Might of the Paizo Gods. We can't have anyone thinking that the Paizo writers might just be normal humans who take their ideas from earlier works. Especially not Works from the Advanced Player's Guide, the Most Holy of Glorious Revelations ever released by Paizo.


Frogsplosion wrote:
oops delete pls

I'd be interesting in making a Delete-focused build. I've never seen one before, so it's definitely not a build I am tired of!


137ben wrote:

And yet, no other game company is able to get away with saying "it doesn't matter if the game we released is horrible or even if it works, because players can just fix it."

Well I can certainly think of quite a few games, games I actually enjoy too, that pretty much require fan made patches to work properly.


HyperMissingno wrote:
The problem with the last one is that there's at least three classes that force you into the prodigy area, Oracle, Sorcerer, and Kinetisist. One has divine power shoved into them, another draws it from their blood, and I don't even know where the last one gets their powers.

I think kineticists are somehow magically linked to one of the elemental planes, they act as a channel to let the elemental power through or something.


Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
MannyGoblin wrote:
Favored Soul for 3.5 was basically Oracle minus the curse, a divine sorcerer.
Hush now. We can't have anyone spreading rumors that content in a Paizo product might have originated from non-Paizo sources. To suggest otherwise would imply that it was not Crafted by the Glorious Divine Might of the Paizo Gods. We can't have anyone thinking that the Paizo writers might just be normal humans who take their ideas from earlier works. Especially not Works from the Advanced Player's Guide, the Most Holy of Glorious Revelations ever released by Paizo.

Sarcasm Dragon, what is your breath weapon? I'm feeling a need to stat up a new monster to troll my players, and that name just triggered that need.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
stormcrow27 wrote:
Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
MannyGoblin wrote:
Favored Soul for 3.5 was basically Oracle minus the curse, a divine sorcerer.
Hush now. We can't have anyone spreading rumors that content in a Paizo product might have originated from non-Paizo sources. To suggest otherwise would imply that it was not Crafted by the Glorious Divine Might of the Paizo Gods. We can't have anyone thinking that the Paizo writers might just be normal humans who take their ideas from earlier works. Especially not Works from the Advanced Player's Guide, the Most Holy of Glorious Revelations ever released by Paizo.
Sarcasm Dragon, what is your breath weapon? I'm feeling a need to stat up a new monster to troll my players, and that name just triggered that need.

My guess is Cynicism. See Fairy Dragon's Euphoria. Immune to morale bonuses for duration instead of fear.

Sczarni

Quote:


in all seriousness more strength related options would be nice. Strength to Acrobatics seems realistic enough, a Strength based Recurve Bow would make sense, Intimidating Prowess should be a trait, Strength to Ride could totally be a trait, and a Strength caster would just be hilarious and fun to watch and play if done right, just think Alex Louis Armstrong from FMA.

In 3.5, there was a feat to swap what stat you used to cast spells with. I know this, because my roommate was a muscle wizard that out muscled everything with grappling and casting spells. You know what the fighter could do? Jump. Free jumping movement if he passed his skill check. He literally hopped everywhere, anyway, tangent.


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Crayfish Hora wrote:
jeremiah dodson 812 wrote:
I'm tired of how over powered (IMO) two handed STR builds are. All you need is a high STR a two handed weapon and Power Attack and your done. The two points of shield AC in a sword and board build doesn't make up to the noticeable dip in damage out put, and the feats needed for TWF in addition to excess money it costs and the 5' step game makes it not stack up, and finesse builds are a feat taxing joke!

You're right. I think it's time Paizo hit the fighter with the nerf bat. Too op for my poor wizard, who just points and things die. Sometimes the fighter gets in the way, oops, too bad. Dead.

Except that's not what was said. He said they were OP, but its clear from the context of the rest of the post that he is referring to its power and ease of use compared to the two other major styles, TWF and single weapon w/ shield. And barring specific feats or a lot of investment (in the case of TWF), and sometimes both, its hard to compete with the damage output of using a 2-hander, and the shield user doesn't get something that outweighs the loss of damage, unless *maybe* you invest in the feats necessary to use your shield as your second weapon

Whether other classes um, outclass the fighter entirely is another issue, especially since the 2H, S&B or TWF is more of a full BAB and some 3/4 BAB question, not a fighter specific one.

AS far as tired builds, I don't play frequently, and have had campaigns be too persistent to have a lot of those, but I can definitely relate to tired players/play styles. The "Why am I working with this idiot/a#+@@*+/psychopath" type particularly speaks to me. The PC flag only works if people compromise both ways.


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Yeah, except you can't blame people for playing 2H weapon users when the other major melee styles (TWF & Sword n Board) are such unmitigated crapfests.


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HeHateMe wrote:
Yeah, except you can't blame people for playing 2H weapon users when the other major melee styles (TWF & Sword n Board) are such unmitigated crapfests.

My point EXACTLY!


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To be fair rangers and slayers can make them work since they can cheat at feats, everyone else however suffers pretty badly when they try them.

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