So for an upcoming game, I've decided to focus on building a fighter that works around the Whirlwind attack feat. As of right now I've narrowed myself to roughly this progression
H Whip Focus
1 Dodge
1 Exotic weapon proficency Whip
2 Whip Mastery
3 Combat Expertise
3 Mobility
4 Spring Attack
5 Whirlwind Attack
5 Improved Whip Mastery
6 Lunge
7 Power Attack
At this point I'm trying to think of as many ways to further increase my attack range from the standard whip of 15 feet to maximize just how much I hit with whirlwind attack. Right now I have Lunge, Enlarge person, Long arm Bracers, and the Long arm spell.
Is there any other ways to improve this concept that I'm missing so far?
Seems to me you planned too many feats, how did you get two 5th and two 7th level slots? Fighters only get one feat per level (except on 1st).
I play a whirlwind attacker with the trip combat maneuver line, works well. In case opponents come too close, you could also try the pushing assault feat to keep them from full attacking
You might want to also consider the merits of Combat Reflexes for AOOs and using Weapon Finesse and Slashing Grace to double down on Dexterity, though I understand the feat requirements are already high.
Given the low damage die for the whip, you will also definitely want to consider Focused Weapon from the Advanced Weapon Training options. Will make a significant difference to you damage output over time.
Prof. Löwenzahn wrote: Seems to me you planned too many feats, how did you get two 5th and two 7th level slots? Fighters only get one feat per level (except on 1st).
I play a whirlwind attacker with the trip combat maneuver line, works well. In case opponents come too close, you could also try the pushing assault feat to keep them from full attacking
Oh, geez you're right. I think I mixed up 3.5 and pathfinder half-way through for feats. So the progression would look closer to this
H Whip proficency
1 Whip focus
F Dodge
F2 Whip Mastery
3 Mobility
F4 Expertise
5 Spring Attack
F6 Whirlwind attack
7 Whip Mastery Imp.
F8 Lunge
9 Power Attack
F10 Furious Focus
Also, I think I was a little too vague, I intend to build this as a STR focused (too many feats to go dex) with using Mobile fighter's Rapid Attack ability to move around the battlefield as I swing at everything in my path, the advice I need is on trying to maximize damage and attack range with this concept, through items, feats, or anything else
Well its obvious you will have a big area for attacks. the drawback is that your damage will be as low as possible and as youve focused everything around one weapon your defense and utility feats are missing.
Whirlwind can be awesome, but like this list shows, its not a practical feat line just because it it has so many feats before it and basically required a reach build. Using a whip adds even more required feats.
It is much more practical to focus on a different reach weapon such as a Lucerne Hammer and Cleave+Greater Cleave.
ChaosTicket wrote: Well its obvious you will have a big area for attacks. the drawback is that your damage will be as low as possible and as youve focused everything around one weapon your defense and utility feats are missing.
Whirlwind can be awesome, but like this list shows, its not a practical feat line just because it it has so many feats before it and basically required a reach build. Using a whip adds even more required feats.
It is much more practical to focus on a different reach weapon such as a Lucerne Hammer and Cleave+Greater Cleave.
I think the whirlwind idea is feasible, despite the feat requirements. But If the plan is to go strength, I agree that a two handed reach weapon is preferable, even though it has a little less reach than the whip. As ChaosTicket has said, you are freeing up a ton of feats, and will be doing a heck of a lot more damage when you hit. This is especially true if you're giving up the chance for getting Focused Weapon by taking the mobile fighter archetype.
Whip might be better if your attacks were layering on debuffs or manuevers of some kind, but as damaging attacks only, I think it is probably a bit flawed. (Which I recognize you may be fine with for flavour reasons, of course.)
Not a huge fan of the cleave line of feats personally.
Well currently at level 12 with a theory mock-up, using no magic items I have a basic combat array of +24 to-hit, 1d4+28 damage, and with the feat Dazzling assault added on, it can daze everyone I hit if they fail a DC 22 fortitude save. So I'd say the damage isn't necessarily optimal, but it definitely can work.
At this point I'm trying to find magic items to increase my reach and damage, with the items & spells mentioned in the first post I have about 35 ft
How did you get +28 damage? That damage seems extremely high.
Even with Power Attack and high strength you wouldnt get that much.
The hit chance also seems quite off in that combination.
+12 BAb, +1 weapon focus, assume 18 base strength so +4, +1 from leveling strength, so +18 without magic items.
If you use Power Attack that is a -4 to hit at level 12. Enlarge person and Longarm bracers give a additional -3 to hit.
So that is more like +11 hit and +15 damage.
ChaosTicket wrote: How did you get +28 damage? That damage seems extremely high. You would need something like 66 strength for that. Power Attack can add damage but only up to +8 at level 12.
The hit chance also seems quite off in that combination.
+12 BAb, +1 weapon focus, assume 18 base strength so +4, +1 from leveling strength, so +18 without magic items.
If you use Power Attack that is a -4 to hit at level 12. Enlarge person and Longarm bracers give a additional-3 hit, +6 belt of strength(not mentioned) could give a +3 hit.
Well the feat layout I have right now is H Whip proficency
H Whip proficency
1 Whip focus
F Dodge
2 Whip Mastery
3 Mobility
4 Expertise
5 Spring Attack
6 Whirlwind attack
7 Power Attack
8 Lunge
9 Weapon Specialization Whip
10 Greater Weapon Focus Whip
11 Dazzling Attack
12 Greater Weapon Specialization Whip
13 Furious Focus
So, I assume at 27 strength, +6 item 3 stat points and the 1 18 starter that I have, using a nine section whip(NOT 100% SURE IF THIS HAS THE REACH OF A WHIP) I can wield it in two hands granting 1.5x strength and a 1:3 return on power attack.
So from there, 12 from strength, 12 from power attack for 24, and then both specializations gets my 28 damage.
Skirch wrote: using NO magic items I have a basic combat array of +24 to-hit, 1d4+28 damage Um this
Edit: also feats for a Whip dont work with a Nine-Section Whip or a Scorpion Whip for that matter. That makes half your feats worthless.
Oh, hm, guess I derped a bit, meant no unreasonable magic items for that level
You can't whirlwind and spring attack at the same time, if that was the intent.
This is a weird idea, but I'll throw it out anyway. The Defended Movement feat (Armor Master's Handbook) gets you +2 AC against AoOs, but it also counts as both as both Dodge and Mobility for the purposes of feats prerequisites. Mobile Fighter keeps Armor Training 1 so you can ignore the Shield Focus prerequisite for Defended Movement.
So you could do something like this.
H Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
1 Weapon Focus (Whip)
F1 Power Attack
F2 Whip Mastery
3 Combat Expertise
F4 Defended Movement
5 Spring Attack
F6 Whirlwind attack
7 Improved Whip Mastery
F8 Lunge
9 Furious Focus
10 ?
Only needing one feat (Defended Movement) instead of two (Dodge and Mobility) frees up an early feat slot. I moved Power Attack there, but you could take something else instead.
BadBird wrote: You can't whirlwind and spring attack at the same time, if that was the intent. I suspect Skirch is taking Spring Attack because it is a prerequisite for Whirlwind Attack.
ChaosTicket wrote: Skirch wrote: using NO magic items I have a basic combat array of +24 to-hit, 1d4+28 damage Um this
Edit: also feats for a Whip dont work with a Nine-Section Whip or a Scorpion Whip for that matter. That makes half your feats worthless. It is true that they don't work with a Nine-Section Whip, but they will work with a Scorpion Whip if you also have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip) and use the Scorpion Whip in 'one-handed mode.'
Gisher wrote: BadBird wrote: You can't whirlwind and spring attack at the same time, if that was the intent. I suspect Skirch is taking Spring Attack because it is a prerequisite for Whirlwind Attack. Hah.
Oh, that changes a few things... Alright, quick clarification then,
1. does a nine sectioned whip have a 15 foot reach like a normal whip?
2. Does it deal lethal damage automatically?
Also, what is Defended Movement from? I couldn't find it
BadBird wrote: Gisher wrote: BadBird wrote: You can't whirlwind and spring attack at the same time, if that was the intent. I suspect Skirch is taking Spring Attack because it is a prerequisite for Whirlwind Attack. Hah. Probably only a lingering suspicion. I mean, what sort of insane player would actually pay all the feats to get Whirlwind Attack?
Also, consider Lore Warden. You give up Armor Training and most of your armor proficiencies for a free Combat Expertise and huge CMB boost. You could just step out of enemy reach, then trip/disarm/sunder them all without needing the Improved Trip feat.
Skirch wrote: Oh, that changes a few things... Alright, quick clarification then,
1. does a nine sectioned whip have a 15 foot reach like a normal whip?
2. Does it deal lethal damage automatically?
Also, what is Defended Movement from? I couldn't find it
Defended Movement is from Armor Master's Handbook. Nine-sectioned whips are completely different weapons, and are not compatible with the Whip Mastery feats. However, they deal lethal automatically.
Skirch wrote: ...
Also, I think I was a little too vague, I intend to build this as a STR focused (too many feats to go dex) ...
There's nothing wrong with a Str build, but you actually can pull off a Dex build if you take a one-level dip in Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler. You get EWP (Whip) for free and the Avenger Finesse class feature gets you Swashbuckler Finesse with whips.
So you can do something like this.
Mysterious Avenger 1/Mobile Fighter 7
MA Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
H Weapon Focus (Whip)
1 Slashing Grace (Whip)
F1 Whip Mastery
F2 Combat Expertise
3 Defended Movement
F4 Spring Attack
5 Whirlwind attack
F6 Improved Whip Mastery
7 Lunge
At this point you can take things like Weapon Specialization (Whip), combat Reflexes, or even Enforcer.
Well, dex is definitely the superior stat and opens up interesting options for Combat reflexes, so I'll stack'em both up and see how they compare tomorrow
Skirch wrote: Oh, that changes a few things... Alright, quick clarification then,
1. does a nine sectioned whip have a 15 foot reach like a normal whip?
Nope. It isn't a modified whip; it's a separate type of weapon entirely.
Skirch wrote: 2. Does it deal lethal damage automatically?
Also, what is Defended Movement from? I couldn't find it
Defended Movement is from the Armor Master's Handbook. Which is why I wrote "[t]he Defended Movement feat (Armor Master's Handbook)..." :)
It's too new to be available on the usual sites.
Edit: Ninja'd by My Self.
Skirch wrote: Well, dex is definitely the superior stat and opens up interesting options for Combat reflexes, so I'll stack'em both up and see how they compare tomorrow Have fun!
Edit: One final thought for the night. With your large reach, your allies are probably going to be getting in your way a lot. So Phalanx Formation will likely prove very useful.
Alright, a couple suggestions.
If you go Ranger and worship Sarenrae: Faithful (Sarenrae) wrote: If the ranger selects faithful (sarenrae), he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Improved Initiative, Mobility, Nimble Moves, and Sidestep. At 6th level, he adds Whirlwind Attack and Wind Stance to the list. At 10th level, he adds Lightning Stance and Spring Attack to the list. Skipping 4 useless feats and the Int 13 requirement? Golden.
Abberant Primalist Bloodrager gets an extra 5 feet of reach from bloodline and can eventually pick up pounce, which totally does work with Whirlwind Attack. Use Greater Bloodrage for Enlarge Person without that pesky 1 round casting time every time you rage.
I don't know if there's any other good ways to get pounce (or pseudo pounce) but it's definitely worth it so that you can charge->Whirlwind Attack. It's like a mini-Fireball. Maybe even a mega-Fireball, depending on your reach.
Sigh, well this build can have alot of problems with it.
If You stuck to a Whip that would be fine as a low damage, wide reach weapon. If you start trying to use other weapons it can fall apart.
Trying it with a Scorpion Whip might be possible due to special rules of that weapon specifically saying you can use it as a "Whip". You would need Exotic Weapon proficiency (scorpion whip) to use it.
a Nine-Sectioned Whip outwright doesnt work as it doesnt count as a "whip" for any feats as a Long Sword doesnt count as a Rapier.
Between a Whip and a Nine Sectioned Whip "It's like the difference between an elephant and an elephant seal."
So, I find myself wondering why Whirlwind Attack and not Great Cleave?
To take Whirlwind attack, you need Mobility, a Feat that manifests itself when you provoke Attacks of Opportunity by moving out of Threatened Squares. So, I'm thinking you should take Panther Style Feats, which give you Free and Swift action Attacks whenever you provoke attacks of opportunity by moving out of threatened squares. If you take even 1 level in Monk, Master of Many Styles, you can use 2 Feat-Styles at once, say Panther Style, and Aescetic Style, using a big, high-damage weapon like a Greatsword (an obvious choice) or Lucerne Hammer (Reach, Brace, Piercing, Blunt, and d12), making Unarmed (or Greatsword) strikes against adjacent opponents and 'Hammer attacks with Reach. Meanwhile, you can use Panther Claw as you move around the battlefield gaining lots of extra attacks until you can slip into the perfect situation, completely surrounded, and explode with martial punishment with your Whirlwind Attack.
Neither Lucerne Hammer nor Greatsword are normal choices for Ascetic Style. The way you can apply it to one of those is through the Martial Versatility Feat: you would have to be a Human (maybe a Half Orc or Elf). Anyway, that Feat lets you apply Feats to other weapons to the same Group that your chosen Weapon is in. Lucerne Hammer is in the same Weapon Group as Monk's Spade. Greatsword is in the same group as Temple Sword.
An easy way to augment your Panther Claw Feat is to take a level in Alchemist in an Archetype with a Cognatation Mutagen. The existence of this option is why I would advise against taking both Panther and Snake styles, another obvious choice. Snake Fang grants Attacks of Opportunity, which works off of Dexterity. Panther Claw works off of Wisdom. Dexterity Mutagens grant +4 Dex, -2 Wisdom. Wisdom Cognatations grant +4 Wisdom, -2 Dex: they work against each other.
Taking levels in Monk and Fighter, you might wear Armor. Wearing Armor means Monks do not get their Wis Mods to AC and don't get Flurry of Blows. But Masters of Many Styles don't get FoB anyway, and the Wis Mod to AC is not usually as good as real armor. You need your AC to be as high as you can get it since you intend to get yourself surrounded and provoke attacks of opportunity.
Implicit in my last post is the question: why Whip? They don't do much damage. For Damage, I'd go Greatsword. For Reach, I'd use a Lucerne Hammer.
I don't think you are making use of all the best qualities of the Whip: do some Tripping! You need Combat Expertise to get Whirlwind Attack, anyway: take Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, and Fury's Fall. Whip has my favorite quality for a Tripping Weapon: it's cheap.
The main advantage of a Tripping Weapon is that in the event of a catastrophic Trip Check that would leave you Tripped by your own Trip attempt, you can elect to drop your Tripping Weapon instead of getting Tripped yourself. So my favorite Trip Weapons have the Cheap Quality. I'd miss a Halberd that I had to drop, but if I dropped my Sickle, Flail, or Whip, I'd shrug my shoulders and pull out another one: I'd carry a half-dozen or so for just such an occasion. Another Tripping weapon I'm interested in developing is the Throwing Shield, but you can't Whirlwind Attack with a Throwing Shield. I mean, sure, you can still Bash with one, but that's not the same. If I wanted a Shield Bashing Build, I would never get Whirlwind Attack. Shield Bashing goes with Shield Slam; Shield Slam goes with Greater Bull Rushand that requires Power Attack, so then I'd just take Great Cleave.
The Attacks of Opportunity generated by Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp should stack with Whirlwind Attack, should you decide to Trip with all your Whirlwinding. Attacks of Opportunity are not "bonus attacks." Attacks of Opportunity happen outside the bounds of the normal combat round. If your GM wouldn't allow that, then you probably shouldn't bother combining Whip and Whirlwind Attack, unless what you're really focusing on is Disarming, but your build doesn't develop Disarming, either!
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