Mage killer rogue


Advice

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Also, if he's allowed to have an entire fortress, shouldn't you have entire thieves guild? Or some sort of huge social network as a level 20 rogue?


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:
So what does the bolded part refer to?

Nothing, now that it has been errata'd.

Good, i was worried about this "hiccup" for a while since i saw multiply thread playing it off as law that even a single point of fire resistance would negate Lava completely
That sounds silly like a DM for first edition one time told me "that said heat and fire damage are different" kind of silly.

Actually, they are different. Think of an incandescent light bulb filament (adamantium tungsten) -- obviously highly heat resistant, but if the bulb breaks, it burns up in seconds. (Grad school apartment I lived in had exposed cold water pipe in the bathroom that would condense shower steam on it and drip onto light bulbs, sometimes causing them to shatter -- flame from burning filament was very noticeable.)

so if im immune to fire i still take heat damage from the fire...


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The spell states that it shrinks an item if the item is burning like a fire it still burns while smaller. So it still uses O2 and fuel while it is fire.
So lava to shrunk lava is still lava and hot it just does not have the surface area.

The other out would be cannot create items of great intrinsic value. So the GM has to determine if the stone you are creating from said lava is of intrinsic vale in his/her campaign.

But in general I think in most games the way you have presented lava to castle would not make it past most GM's. Now I do know of a few games I have played in the past that the GM would not have a problem with it either.
MDC


Xaimum Mafire wrote:
Also, if he's allowed to have an entire fortress, shouldn't you have entire thieves guild? Or some sort of huge social network as a level 20 rogue?

Why can't the wizard run a thieves guild?


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Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

The spell states that it shrinks an item if the item is burning like a fire it still burns while smaller. So it still uses O2 and fuel while it is fire.

So lava to shrunk lava is still lava and hot it just does not have the surface area.

The other out would be cannot create items of great intrinsic value. So the GM has to determine if the stone you are creating from said lava is of intrinsic vale in his/her campaign.

But in general I think in most games the way you have presented lava to castle would not make it past most GM's. Now I do know of a few games I have played in the past that the GM would not have a problem with it either.
MDC

all you need is 3 iron bars then you can make an iron bucket grab the lava in that then put it in a dispenser set to a red stone trip wire boom lava trap, and as always watch out for creepers.


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CWheezy wrote:
Why can't the wizard run a thieves guild?

The wizard can, too, in theory. It just seems like no one is looking at the rogue beyond just a tier 4 class. The level 20 wizard has a fully tricked out tower, a pocket dimension, dozens of spellbooks filled the most powerful spells in existence, construct slaves, and his soul in guarded by angels with several clones scattered throughout the land. But, the rogue, who's also level 20, only has a couple of magic items and 10d6 sneak attack.


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If the rogue has UMD, couldn't he also have some of these wizard goodies, at the very least? Even more practically, a level 20 rogue should have a kingdom-wide, world-spanning social network. He should have powerful friends, a base of operation, and at the very least, a reputation for being the greatest thief/assassin/explorer/something in the world. The rogue is level 20, too. Between Appraise, Diplomacy, Disguise, an Use Magic Device, why is the rogue single-handedly assaulting a death trap?


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Xaimum, because that's what me and my friend agreed to. It's that simple. The "why can't the wizard run a thieves' guild" question is the EXACT reason we agreed 1v1. Period.


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Question... what about stun-locking the wizard? Yes, I realize I have to get past the first round's spell. But if we assume that I've either bypassed the divinations and I have the drop on him or I got lucky as )(&)*&%^&%$#^$&^%*$()*&)(*&^%$#@!#$%^&*()_)(*&a mp;^%$#@#$%^&*( and I'm getting the first attack, or I got just as lucky and survived the first attack... Improved Unarmed Strikes, Stunning/Paralyzing Strikes (as someone pointed out, mages aren't renowned for their wondrous fortitude saves), combined with enchanted Brass Knuckles to disable undead, just in case the wizard just HAPPENS to be a lich?


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...how is Lava to Rock not permanent? Lava is just molten Rock that's reached the surface. Same kingdom, Same class, Same size, Related, for a total of 11 (Permanent is 9). I only can't say for sure on Same Intelligence because I'm not sure it applies to things without Intelligence. It does if you make them non-intelligent (human to marionette example).

Stun-locking is a bad choice (things are immune to stun). You want some Daze. Possibly Nauseated (I think the current ruling is only move action, no swift?). Dirty Trick Master will do it. Dazing Assault will do it. Remember though, Wizards get all the miss chance spells (and are quite fond of them). Is there a Pathfinder equivalent to Pierce Magical Concealment?


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Bob Bob Bob wrote:

...how is Lava to Rock not permanent? Lava is just molten Rock that's reached the surface. Same kingdom, Same class, Same size, Related, for a total of 11 (Permanent is 9). I only can't say for sure on Same Intelligence because I'm not sure it applies to things without Intelligence. It does if you make them non-intelligent (human to marionette example).

Stun-locking is a bad choice (things are immune to stun). You want some Daze. Possibly Nauseated (I think the current ruling is only move action, no swift?). Dirty Trick Master will do it. Dazing Assault will do it. Remember though, Wizards get all the miss chance spells (and are quite fond of them). Is there a Pathfinder equivalent to Pierce Magical Concealment?

lava cools then become rock (or cobblestone if you will.)


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Moment of Prescience gives him at least +20 to either his AC vs. the first attack or his first fort save and lasts at least 20 hours (more with caster level boosts, metamagic rod of extend spell, etc.) so it's basically a 24/7 buff. You need to make at least 2 attacks to have a realistic chance of stunning/dazing etc.


Let me see if I can explain myself better.
(Goes and looks at Wikipeda under Lava to refresh understanding)

Lava is not one substance but is made up of may different types of substances and depending on where you get the lava it can have other things inside it also. (ie lava flow might have things it picked up upon the way).
Just cooling the lava ie making it solid and not liquid does not necessary make good building material as often it has air pockets inside as well as other crystal deformities (but again there are rare cases in which I think you could get really good building material)

Good stone to build towers with is valuable (spell states that the polymorphed object can not be an item of immense value) the GM may decide that the spell fails because of this. IE you want to use the stone to build the tower not just create some tapestries that have a huge volume of lava material in them.

I would rule that the stone created is of poor building value as the lava itself is of poor building value. To do so you would have to create some type of material to better handle the structural stresses of the castle.

if you are just going to make some flooring out of the poly'ed material that is different and is much different than the info that I read from your post. ie I have Wizards create their castles out of poly'ed lava.

Does that make sense?
MDC


CWheezy wrote:
Hi all these spells do not eat into the wizards wbl, he casts them for free with blood money

The same spell available to a rogue via either Major Talent or archetype?

Any abuse of Blood Money can be reciprocated by the rogue.


is rod of negation still a thing?


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Xaimum Mafire wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Why can't the wizard run a thieves guild?
The wizard can, too, in theory. It just seems like no one is looking at the rogue beyond just a tier 4 class. The level 20 wizard has a fully tricked out tower, a pocket dimension, dozens of spellbooks filled the most powerful spells in existence, construct slaves, and his soul in guarded by angels with several clones scattered throughout the land. But, the rogue, who's also level 20, only has a couple of magic items and 10d6 sneak attack.

The traps set by the wizard are not really traps, so they cannot be disarmed, the rogue's unlocked skills are disallowed, and any attempt at creativity by the rogue is reviewed with a microscope to see if the suggestion is explicitly defined under RAW.

It's not really a class discussion when one side is hand-waved everything and the other is denied nearly everything, including basic class abilities.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
is rod of negation still a thing?

Absolutely, and any self-respecting mage killer will bring one at 20th level.

So are rings of spell turning.

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:


if you are just going to make some flooring out of the poly'ed material that is different and is much different than the info that I read from your post. ie I have Wizards create their castles out of poly'ed lava.

I keep picturing the wizard building his tower out of polymorphed lava and the rogue running around the outside with an antimagic field. What happens when the entire base of the tower reverts to lava .....


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Snowlilly wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Hi all these spells do not eat into the wizards wbl, he casts them for free with blood money

The same spell available to a rogue via either Major Talent or archetype?

Any abuse of Blood Money can be reciprocated by the rogue.

Can it be? How?


CWheezy wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Hi all these spells do not eat into the wizards wbl, he casts them for free with blood money

The same spell available to a rogue via either Major Talent or archetype?

Any abuse of Blood Money can be reciprocated by the rogue.

Can it be? How?

Rogues have access to wizard spells, including Permanency and Planar Binding


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Uh, like can prepare them? Blood money doesnt work with a scroll.


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Snowlilly,
I agree have some antimagic sphere spells cast on force stones and give them to a bunch of 15 year old's with wrist rockets and let them take care of the mages tower and the hirelings inside for you.
Then he rebuilds it and you do the same thing again. Your cost of doing battle is much less than his.

Also about my lava and duration comment I was thinking that you go to the lava and often from what I remember there is other stuff that is on top of and inside of the lava flow so it is not one kingdom in regards to the spell as you are converting the animal and plant matter than has fallen into it as well as the lava itself.
If you have some way to summon pure lava then I would agree that the duration would be permanent.

I also try to envision just how someone would do something that they say is possible by the rules so I was trying to envision a caster going to a volcano or lava flow and trying to get his daily allotment of lava to poly with is magic and then get back home. It is going to take some spells to protect him if he does it on the cheep but if he used more powerful spells it would eat up more of his total resources.

I think there is another way to do it that does not limit the poly building problem but that is also expensive and is not a all over every surface type solution.

MDC


CWheezy wrote:
Uh, like can prepare them? Blood money doesnt work with a scroll.

Eldritch Scoundrel is a six level caster using the wizard spell list.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
is rod of negation still a thing?

Yes, but he really needs a Rod of Cancellation to drop the permanent Prismatic Sphere's or Prismatic Walls that the Wizard will retreat behind/within. And Truesight Goggles so he doesn't follow the Wizard through a permanent illusionary wall into a permanent Prismatic Wall.

Of course the permanent portal from his demiplane to his tower should have a permanent Prismatic Wall on the inner threshold, too. Not sure how you overcome that, just stick the Rod of Cancellation ahead of you ever time you go through one of them, maybe.

Snowlilly wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Uh, like can prepare them? Blood money doesnt work with a scroll.
Eldritch Scoundrel is a six level caster using the wizard spell list.

I will get a huge LOL out of this if the "Rogue" wins by using 6th level casting rather than any traditional rogue abilities. Go for a Neutral alignment, Spell Perfection Possession, cast one with free Persistent and Piercing Spell, one with Quicken, maximize your Intelligence and use feats to boost DC and SR penetration, and you'd have a decent chance of him failing one of the saves (ideally you cast the quickened one first so he burns his Moment of Prescience or similar booster on that). After you possess him, do a coup de grace on the posessed body. The "rogue" wins! (Until his clone activates or his real body wakes up.)


So, I only read the first page (shame on me), but has anyone mentioned vigilante, yet? Specifically a stalker-build meant to trick divinations with a public persona who works to buddy-up with/warn the wizard about the "rogue" who's coming to get him? Not currently well versed enough in this to know if it works; I'm basically going off vague "I recall this, sort of, from the playtest, and a conversation I had a while back on the subject." so something like this might not even be possible - I might even be mixing in things like Master Spy or other classes. But that's the idea, anyway. Diplomance and "Bluffomance" him into being a buddy, then murder the real him in his demiplane while (supposedly) "guarding" him from yourself.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
is rod of negation still a thing?

Yes, but he really needs a Rod of Cancellation to drop the permanent Prismatic Sphere's or Prismatic Walls that the Wizard will retreat behind/within. And Truesight Goggles so he doesn't follow the Wizard through a permanent illusionary wall into a permanent Prismatic Wall.

Of course the permanent portal from his demiplane to his tower should have a permanent Prismatic Wall on the inner threshold, too. Not sure how you overcome that, just stick the Rod of Cancellation ahead of you ever time you go through one of them, maybe.

Snowlilly wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Uh, like can prepare them? Blood money doesnt work with a scroll.
Eldritch Scoundrel is a six level caster using the wizard spell list.
I will get a huge LOL out of this if the "Rogue" wins by using 6th level casting rather than any traditional rogue abilities. Go for a Neutral alignment, Spell Perfection Possession, cast one with free Persistent and Piercing Spell, one with Quicken, maximize your Intelligence and use feats to boost DC and SR penetration, and you'd have a decent chance of him failing one of the saves (ideally you cast the quickened one first so he burns his Moment of Prescience or similar booster on that). After you possess him, do a coup de grace on the posessed body. The "rogue" wins! (Until his clone activates or his real body wakes up.)

I was not going to touch Eldritch Scoundrel until somebody tried to us Blood Money cheese to justify infinite wealth.

It did not take very long for someone to accommodate me. Once we get tired of arguing what both classes can do with infinite bound creatures and permanent spells, we can go back to a more normal discussion.

Spoiler:
No, I'm not sharing what I'm smoking.


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Tacticslion wrote:
So, I only read the first page (shame on me), but has anyone mentioned vigilante, yet? Specifically a stalker-build meant to trick divinations with a public persona who works to buddy-up with/warn the wizard about the "rogue" who's coming to get him? Not currently well versed enough in this to know if it works; I'm basically going off vague "I recall this, sort of, from the playtest, and a conversation I had a while back on the subject." so something like this might not even be possible - I might even be mixing in things like Master Spy or other classes. But that's the idea, anyway. Diplomance and "Bluffomance" him into being a buddy, then murder the real him in his demiplane while (supposedly) "guarding" him from yourself.

The point of the challenge is that it has to be a Rogue 20, apparently. I don't think even archetypes are allowed, but definitely no multiclassing. PIcking up some Vigilante talents was mentioned, though.


Tacticslion wrote:
So, I only read the first page (shame on me), but has anyone mentioned vigilante, yet? Specifically a stalker-build meant to trick divinations with a public persona who works to buddy-up with/warn the wizard about the "rogue" who's coming to get him? Not currently well versed enough in this to know if it works; I'm basically going off vague "I recall this, sort of, from the playtest, and a conversation I had a while back on the subject." so something like this might not even be possible - I might even be mixing in things like Master Spy or other classes. But that's the idea, anyway. Diplomance and "Bluffomance" him into being a buddy, then murder the real him in his demiplane while (supposedly) "guarding" him from yourself.
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
The point of the challenge is that it has to be a Rogue 20, apparently. I don't think even archetypes are allowed, but definitely no multiclassing. PIcking up some Vigilante talents was mentioned, though.

Wait, what? I thought the OP even mentioned other classes on, like, the very first page? Huh, I'll have to reread that.

(I confess, I didn't even read the dates - this could have been an older thread - I was kind of distracted at the time. I'll check some more. I thought it was "rogue-like theme, no cheese, all Paizo, level 20, totally insane, but that's fine" - I'll check it again, later, when I have the time.)

EDIT: Okay, well, at least it's only from 8 days ago. Heh.

EDIT 2: Huh, okay. I guess he was willing to accept dips or prestige; others were mentioning other classes. Ah, well. Whoops.

That said, as many of the Cyclops Helms as he can acquire as possible (if that's considered non-cheese) and, if not, then, if possible as many Luck Blades as possible (wishes optional; preferred, but unnecessary). Those allow him to control his own fate, more-or-less.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Cyclops Helm

Even one ensures a critical on that all-important first attack with a spell stealing weapon. This is where you get a complete list of all active spells on the wizard and steal his get-out-of-jail-free card.

Depending on what he has, you may gain an instant pass to his demi-plane in the process.

Spoiler:
This is assuming you don't want to simply kill the current body with a vorpal weapon.


Exactly. Those things are among the most amazing things Paizo has ever produced.


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Snowlilly wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Cyclops Helm

Even one ensures a critical on that all-important first attack with a spell stealing weapon. This is where you get a complete list of all active spells on the wizard and steal his get-out-of-jail-free card.

Depending on what he has, you may gain an instant pass to his demi-plane in the process.

** spoiler omitted **

This. This right here. This is why I internet. You just won this for me.

For the record, the terms are as follows: I have, through any means I choose, gained access to his main base on his private demiplane. That's assumed. I use the term tower because of tradition, not because it's automatically a tower. I might be dealing with scrying nodes (covered), and I might be dealing with summoned monsters (covered). The important part is taking the wizard. So, Lilly, thank you.


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Do keep in mind while you can choose a 20 which is an auto hit, you still have to roll to confirm the critical hit.

You also will need to deal with Displacement and Mirror Image.

Silver Crusade

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Tacticslion wrote:
Cyclops Helm

I can't believe this exist. I can't believe a helm that can give you an auto nat 20 on an attack roll exist, especially at both that cost and without attunement.

This isn't related to the conversation directly, but why would anyone have another head slot item? Why not just carry a scythe, pump all crit confirmation rolls with things like critical focus, and instantly end any difficult fight? At like 10th level, you could afford 1 of these for every major encounter in which you were in, earlier if you can craft your own (its requirements are even dirt easy to get for making it), and just crit everything into pieces...Even if there were some ruling about it only working once with multiple helms, a once a day scythe crit is still a 'get out of an encounter free' card.

Why does this exist?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

To be a unique item, only found in a single dungeon, and never mass produced.

Silver Crusade

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TriOmegaZero wrote:

To be a unique item, only found in a single dungeon, and never mass produced.

I'd argue that its description says nothing like that, it's CL is 1 so it's silly easy to craft, and literally tons of other stuff, but I'm too busy realizing that I need to add this to every one of my guides ASAPossible.


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Claxon wrote:

Do keep in mind while you can choose a 20 which is an auto hit, you still have to roll to confirm the critical hit.

You also will need to deal with Displacement and Mirror Image.

Yeah, and that's when you blow your +20 Moment of Prescience on increasing your AC. Good luck with the confirmation.

Shadow Lodge

N. Jolly wrote:
I'd argue that its description says nothing like that

It's a GODDAMN SKULL OF A CREATURE.


TOZ wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
I'd argue that its description says nothing like that
It's a G~#&*%N SKULL OF A CREATURE.

To be fair, there is nothing in the description that indicates that the creature is unique. Shrunken heads have existed in multiples for many years throughout human history, as have ritualized animal skulls as headgear in multiple quantities - it doesn't seem like a stretch to presume there is more than one of these floating around, considering the crafting requirements are minimal.

I mean, I own the Emerald Spire (which this was printed in), but know next to nothing about the item because I don't know if I'm going to be a player or GM and this am not going to read the book. Perhaps the book says, the skull of "Zarboff the magnificent" or something, but d20pfsrd kind of has to file off the serial numbers for legal reasons. If you know that it's a specific creature, you could link it to Archive of Nethys if they have it or put it in a spoiler. Otherwise, it's just a CR 9 creature's skull turned into a trophy helm with low-grade spells and magic. That's about a DC 16 Knkwledge (arcana) to know about - 21 if super-rare - and a DC 16 spellcraft to craft.

Silver Crusade

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TOZ wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
I'd argue that its description says nothing like that
It's a G+*$$#N SKULL OF A CREATURE.

Glad I'm not playing in a setting with only one cyclops ever.

The item on AON

It's not a named cyclops, it's just a cyclops. You could argue that you'd need an actual cyclops skull although that's not listed in the construction requirements (the things that state what is needed to construct it), so it should be easy enough to make a farm of these. Hell, with this item's existence, farming cyclopes should probably be a part of every adventurer's standard day.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ring of Greater Invisibility, ring of silence. Take dazzling display and Shatter Defenses. He doesn't get a save against the intimidation. Guaranteeing you can get sneak attack. Putting silence on yourself and getting close will hurt his casting. Best starting advice I got


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2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
Ring of Greater Invisibility, ring of silence. Take dazzling display and Shatter Defenses. He doesn't get a save against the intimidation. Guaranteeing you can get sneak attack. Putting silence on yourself and getting close will hurt his casting. Best starting advice I got

See invisibility is a thing, and at very low level also available to be permanency.

Silence is nice because it gets around echolocation though the wizard will note his blindsight dropping as you close, so best to do that in a single round. The bigger issue is with silence activated you can't hear either which means you can miss things, and have to deal with a -4 to your initiative.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:
2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
Ring of Greater Invisibility, ring of silence. Take dazzling display and Shatter Defenses. He doesn't get a save against the intimidation. Guaranteeing you can get sneak attack. Putting silence on yourself and getting close will hurt his casting. Best starting advice I got

See invisibility is a thing, and at very low level also available to be permanency.

Silence is nice because it gets around echolocation though the wizard will note his blindsight dropping as you close, so best to do that in a single round.

Seeking bow + Phase arrows... target isn't likely to 'spot' you if you are standing in a completely different building shooting them through the intervening walls (and/or any intervening people). Just need to know what 5' square they are in (via Greater Scrying, Discern Location, mind linked spotters, etc) and you can shoot with no cover or concealment penalties.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
Ring of Greater Invisibility, ring of silence. Take dazzling display and Shatter Defenses. He doesn't get a save against the intimidation. Guaranteeing you can get sneak attack. Putting silence on yourself and getting close will hurt his casting. Best starting advice I got

See invisibility is a thing, and at very low level also available to be permanency.

Silence is nice because it gets around echolocation though the wizard will note his blindsight dropping as you close, so best to do that in a single round.

Seeking bow + Phase arrows... target isn't likely to 'spot' you if you are standing in a completely different building shooting them through the intervening walls (and/or any intervening people). Just need to know what 5' square they are in (via Greater Scrying, Discern Location, mind linked spotters, etc) and you can shoot with no cover or concealment penalties.

At which point why are we using a ring of Greater Invisibility and a ring of silence?


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That rogue? He ded.


Zarius wrote:
Question... what about stun-locking the wizard? Yes, I realize I have to get past the first round's spell. But if we assume that I've either bypassed the divinations and I have the drop on him or I got lucky as )(&)*&%^&%$#^$&^%*$()*&)(*&^%$#@!#$%^&*()_)(*&a mp;^%$#@#$%^&*( and I'm getting the first attack, or I got just as lucky and survived the first attack... Improved Unarmed Strikes, Stunning/Paralyzing Strikes (as someone pointed out, mages aren't renowned for their wondrous fortitude saves), combined with enchanted Brass Knuckles to disable undead, just in case the wizard just HAPPENS to be a lich?

I believe on the first page I recommended something similar. If you can catch them prebuff it'll wreck them. I'm on my phone now, but search posts for MageHunter.


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Alright, so I'll collate what information we've gotten.

The OP is playing a Rogue. They do not need to be pure Rogue (the last idea I saw was a Lich Rogue 18/Assassin 1/Shadowdancer 1) but they can't be primarily a spellcaster. A couple SLAs is fine, 6th level casting is right out. Using magic to defeat magic is the opposite of what this is about.

Their GM is playing a Wizard.

Both are level 20.

The fight takes place on the Wizard's private demiplane base. The Rogue has access to the demiplane (by some means of their choosing). Unwritten (but I have to assume) is that the Wizard is also on this demiplane (or an Astral Projection, or something).

The fight is 1 on 1... ish. Neither is assumed to have NPC allies (at least, that's what I assume "no thieves guild" means). I don't see anything preventing the Wizard from having Simulacrum/Golems, but I assume they come out of WBL. Ditto Planar Binding.

Cheese is not allowed. This is sorta ill-defined, so presumably we just need to run it by the OP if it's possible. Otherwise works by RAW (which here should probably be read as "no significant houserules").


TriBob, that's the money right there.

I can use anything Paizo official, which includes unchained and thus crafting my own magical items. A certain amount of magic is allowed, specifically in the form of magical items, but I want minimal involvement from an actual spell caster (hence the reason I've decided against the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype, since it effectively MAKES me a spell caster).

The levels are pure rogue OR Rogue based prestige classes (such as the previously mentioned assassin/shadowdancer), but I'm not willing to deviate to, say, 1 rogue 19 wizard and say it counts.

By "cheesing" I mean no intentionally using the rules-as-written to do something massively overpowered and clearly meant to be *forbidden* by the rules. Example: 3.5, if you broke a magical item, you got an explosion. That's written out of the PF rules, as near as I can assess, but in 3.5 you could, in theory, circumvent a lot of this by simply loading a fresh L9 wand (of anything, since non-elemental damage spells did force damage, even Cures), and simply blow up the wizard. Cheesing.

No NPC allies, no hirelings, no Cohorts, unless expressly allowed by class, such as familiars (yeah, I know about the archetypes, like Mauler, which can make it nasty).

To add to your list:
~Nameless One feat
~Scry Slip rogue talent
~Scrying Familiarity talent
~Maxing out Stealth and Perception (yes, Greater Invis ring is acceptable, as is a Stealth boosting item, since I can make that without involving a wizard)
~Custom race for various perks, including the SR, Nimble Attacks, and See in Darkness perks. (Starting RP of 11)

Currently considering unarmed strike, with enchanted Brass Knuckles, so that I can use the array of monk stun-lock attacks, and trying to find something for smashing undead (if I can lich out, I have to assume the wizard might, too).


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
That rogue? He ded.

Shush, you pessimist.


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You pretty much need to assume the wizard will have moment of prescience and mind blank running. If you can get scrolls of those (& nondetection) and UMD them without troubling your principles too much then you want to as well.

Reposting my earlier comments on magic items:

True seeing should be assumed on both characters; truesight goggles are pricy at 184800 gp but you have L20 wealth and they're worth it. Invisibility is still useful vs. mooks but only vs. them.

A lavender and green ellipsoid ioun stone and a wayfinder protects you from one 8th level or lower spell (including any metamagiced to 9th) per round. Get one.

A scarab of protection and an elixir of elemental protection are similarly useful.


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Oh, and Twist Away, JUST in case. Because screw fort saves.


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avr wrote:

You pretty much need to assume the wizard will have moment of prescience and mind blank running. If you can get scrolls of those (& nondetection) and UMD them without troubling your principles too much then you want to as well.

Reposting my earlier comments on magic items:

True seeing should be assumed on both characters; truesight goggles are pricy at 184800 gp but you have L20 wealth and they're worth it. Invisibility is still useful vs. mooks but only vs. them.

A lavender and green ellipsoid ioun stone and a wayfinder protects you from one 8th level or lower spell (including any metamagiced to 9th) per round. Get one.

A scarab of protection and an elixir of elemental protection are similarly useful.

Scarab of protection, great item.

As to invis being useless *shrugs* Alright, then. Screw invis. is there a limit to how high I can make a magic item that boosts stealth? I know that the cost is Bonus*Bonus*100 gp, but is there a cap, or just what I can afford?

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