No you can't ranged grapple. That is the reason the fighter needs a special ability to be able to do so with a bow.Once you have loosed the arrow, you have no particular means of drawing your opponent to you, even technically did grapple them with HS. And the Grappling rules make no provision for reeling in an opponent on a line once you've pinned them at bowshot ranges.
What if the person is already beside you?
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needing a weapon with the right properties as well, unarmed strike has no weapon properties besides nonlethal, and yet it can perform every combat maneuver. By default, you perform all combat maneuvers without a weapon. You need the special property only if you're trying to use a weapon, which is the more specific rule.
I'm responding to this because no one has yet. This is not true. You can only make a trip, disarm, or sunder with an unarmed strike, just like any other weapon. If you make any other manuever check, any modifiers to your unarmed strike will not apply. Weapon focus, enhancement bonus, and the like do not apply. If you make a bull rush, dirty trick, reposition, or grapple you are using your body, but you are not making an unarmed strike.
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The original Gnomes born of the First World are living and don't have souls.
Well... that's just obnoxious. Grappling is a combat maneuver is a special attack is an attack is a standard action, but it has to specifically jump over attack in its rules? Sigh. Too much complexity for my liking.
Yeeeeah, the only piece of the attack rules that grapple ends up keeping is... rolling a d20. lol. other than that its different in every respect. I wish the forum formatting had a cross-through tag so i could show the rule inheritance better
Well... that's just obnoxious. Grappling is a combat maneuver is a special attack is an attack is a standard action, but it has to specifically jump over attack in its rules? Sigh. Too much complexity for my liking.Yeeeeah, the only piece of the attack rules that grapple ends up keeping is... rolling a d20. lol. other than that its different in every respect. I wish the forum formatting had a cross-through tag so i could show the rule inheritance better
Do you mean this tag?
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No I thought i'd seen you use it before, I actually just spent a few minutes looking through your posts but i couldn't find it. Thank you very much. (I wish they would update the formatting FAQ to include all the tags)
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This thread reminds me of the fact that there are absolutely no penalties associated with the "dead" condition.Ugh... every time I hear this it makes me facepalm.
1) For the dead, the soul is no longer attached to the body. This is part of the death condition.2) Without a soul, a body is a piece of meat.
The undead abominations of the world rage at your casual dismissal of their existence!
;)
I chose to skip undead entirely because they would be a discussion on their own. You'll notice I also skipped outsiders which function slightly differently as well. Again, for brevity's sake.
Suffice it to say a body without a soul is inert unless some other force animates it.
NoI thought i'd seen you use it before, I actually just spent a few minutes looking through your posts but i couldn't find it. Thank you very much. (I wish they would update the formatting FAQ to include all the tags)
It's there. It's on the same line as the bold and italics tags.
What if the person is already beside you?No you can't ranged grapple. That is the reason the fighter needs a special ability to be able to do so with a bow.Once you have loosed the arrow, you have no particular means of drawing your opponent to you, even technically did grapple them with HS. And the Grappling rules make no provision for reeling in an opponent on a line once you've pinned them at bowshot ranges.Then I guess that would be a legit use of Hamatula strike. But if you are stabbing with the arrow in your hand, that's Improvised Weapon Penalties. If you are shooting your bow at an adjacent target, that's attacks of opportunity.
Edit: at time like that, it would be better just to pull your morning star off your belt, and use HS with that.
What do you think the PDT(rules team) will say about ranged attacks and grappling if they were to pop in here?
BWAHAHAHAAAAA!!! For a small fee, anyone can send me a carrier pigeon, sending spell, or the like, and I will grapple them to my location. Irregardless of distance!!!
What do you think the PDT(rules team) will say about ranged attacks and grappling if they were to pop in here?What if the person is already beside you?No you can't ranged grapple. That is the reason the fighter needs a special ability to be able to do so with a bow.Once you have loosed the arrow, you have no particular means of drawing your opponent to you, even technically did grapple them with HS. And the Grappling rules make no provision for reeling in an opponent on a line once you've pinned them at bowshot ranges.Then I guess that would be a legit use of Hamatula strike. But if you are stabbing with the arrow in your hand, that's Improvised Weapon Penalties. If you are shooting your bow at an adjacent target, that's attacks of opportunity.
Edit: at time like that, it would be better just to pull your morning star off your belt, and use HS with that.
Before I begin, I want to analyze your question. I don't think you framed this question on purpose. But this is a framed question.
The question pre-assumes the PDT is going to respond at all. In general, I'd say that the PDT doesn't respond to anything unless they are unhappy about it. Any Official Rules Post on this matter already pre-supposes they are grumpy: they would re-word Hamatula Strike to say Piercing, Melee Weapons, not just Piercing Weapons.
But let's now pre-assume that the PDT is reading these posts avidly, and that "no response" is a response. Like in the Rush song, if the PDT chooses not to decide, they have made a choice. Having answered your literal question, I would like to explore the question I think you meant to ask: will the prospect of players using Hamatula Strike with a Bow inspire a crackdown?
If you use Hamatula Strike with your arrows, that would mean you might impose the Grappled condition on your target for 1 round, but with no...
It was a hypothetical question.
I will rephrase for you.If an FAQ were made what do you think they would say.
Feel free to get me the short answer.
If you answered the question in your previous post with regard as to what their answer might be I do apologize for overlooking it.
edit: I don't know what statement the PDT already made so I am asking will they say yes or no to ranged grappling, even if the character does not have a special weapon, special ability, or magic to help them do it.
Wow, so many people in this thread doing the knee-jerk "It doesn't work because... because... we know it doesn't work! Reasons!"
Of course we know grappling, and similar maneuvers, are intended to be done at melee range. But the poster is completely correct in the rules failing to mention this, as far as I can tell.
Btw, this is not a case of someone trying to do something not described in the rules. The rules tell you how to perform combat maneuvers, and nothing limits them to melee only. You really have to infer this from knowledge of how these types of things work in real life... which is reasonable. However, it also isn't, technically, by-the-rules.
A lot of the rules are like that.
I will resort to my famous example of the dead condition not saying you can not take any actions.The answer you get to this question from any one person will depend on whether that person goes by exactly what the book says or if they go by the most likely intent based on inference when discussing a rule. If two people in a discussion are coming from these two different base points they will likely never agree on how a rule works. Most saying that the ranged grapple are extrapolation based on how the game normally works. The book is not a technical manual, and it is expected that you do this to some extent.
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I can pretty much guarantee that any member of the PDT looking in on this thread has rolled their eyes, facepalmed, or sighed in frustration.
If you have any doubt about the intention of the grappling rules (and I really don't mean the exact letter of them, but the intent), get a post up that's suitable for FAQing.
The rules are not perfect, they're not written in legalese, they're written in pretty loose conversational language for the purpose of relaying information, not being parsed by a computer.
And then there's always the reasonableness test: if a non-gamer who was not trying to parse the rules as legal text were reading the grapple rules, would they believe that the rules say that it is possible to grapple at range?
"In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair..."
"At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level."
Telekinesis allows ranged grapple as well as some of the "hand" spells
Whips and specific feats
Creatures with tentacles and reach
Sounds like people who say you can't range grapple haven't played much?
"In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair..."
"At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level."
Thank you
Prehensile hair/WHW allows the same shenanigans
Telekinesis allows ranged grapple as well as some of the "hand" spells
Whips and specific feats
Creatures with tentacles and reach
Sounds like people who say you can't range grapple haven't played much?
No...
What we're saying is that you can't wrangle the rules so that a 1st level monk with nothing in his hands can grapple a target 130 feet away.
Telekinesis allows ranged grapple as well as some of the "hand" spells
Whips and specific feats
Creatures with tentacles and reach
Sounds like people who say you can't range grapple haven't played much?
Nobody is saying ranged grappling is impossible. We are saying that without some special exception you can't make a grapple without it being a melee attack. Also reach is not the same as ranged. A reach attack such as a tentacle or bite from a large creature is still a melee attack.
Don't be condescending and not know that reach(melee) and ranged are not the same thing.
Telekinesis allows ranged grapple as well as some of the "hand" spells
Whips and specific feats
Creatures with tentacles and reach
Sounds like people who say you can't range grapple haven't played much?
No...
What we're saying is that you can't wrangle the rules so that a 1st level monk with nothing in his hands can grapple a target 130 feet away.
Title says it all
Tell me you can't range grapple
Yes you can
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Telekinesis allows ranged grapple as well as some of the "hand" spells
Whips and specific feats
Creatures with tentacles and reach
Sounds like people who say you can't range grapple haven't played much?
No...
What we're saying is that you can't wrangle the rules so that a 1st level monk with nothing in his hands can grapple a target 130 feet away.
That i can understand. while it is possible to grapple something beyond the normal reach of your arm, You need some medium for the grapple to actually function(like a lasso, a spell that can grab or bind, a whip, or something to restrict the targets movement in some way, like a chained harpoon or rope). all of these things first require a successful ranged attack or usage to enable for the grapple attempt to be made. Plus some have a restriction on the range of the grapple(like the length of the rope). Plus some things probably won't be immediately impacted by the grapple. like a dragon.
As for the monk example, there is a way he could do a grapple of something 130ft away. Being fired 130f through the air at the target via catapult. again it requires the shot hitting first.
Telekinesis allows ranged grapple as well as some of the "hand" spells
Whips and specific feats
Creatures with tentacles and reach
Sounds like people who say you can't range grapple haven't played much?
Nobody is saying ranged grappling is impossible. We are saying that without some special exception you can't do make a grapple without it being a melee attack. Also reach is not the same as ranged. A reach attack such as a tentacle or bite from a large creature is still a melee attack.
Don't be condescending and not know that reach(melee) and ranged are not the same thing.
Telekinesis is still ranged and you can still grapple with it
The OP suggested the only way to grapple should be adjacent foesA whole bunch jumped in and agreed
A combat manuver by the way is not technically a melee attack, it's done in place of one
Unless it specifically says you can do it as part of a melee attack, like a wolf tripping with a bite
Grasping hand can do it at 230 feet or more
Telekinesis allows ranged grapple as well as some of the "hand" spells
Whips and specific feats
Creatures with tentacles and reach
Sounds like people who say you can't range grapple haven't played much?
Nobody is saying ranged grappling is impossible. We are saying that without some special exception you can't do make a grapple without it being a melee attack. Also reach is not the same as ranged. A reach attack such as a tentacle or bite from a large creature is still a melee attack.
Don't be condescending and not know that reach(melee) and ranged are not the same thing.
Telekinesis is still ranged and you can still grapple with it
The OP suggested the only way to grapple should be adjacent foes
A whole bunch jumped in and agreedA combat manuver by the way is not technically a melee attack, it's done in place of one
Unless it specifically says you can do it as part of a melee attack, like a wolf tripping with a bite
That does nothing to change the fact that it can not normally be ranged attack, and since hands/claws/etc are normally used it is still melee based.
Also telekineses is not a ranged attack when used to grapple. It is a spell that allows you to use a CMB. If it was a ranged attack then cover and so on would matter.
When you are throwing items that is a ranged attack.
But since you just dont want to admit you were too lazy to read past the title consider this conversation over. I don't have time for immature people.
Grasping hand can do it at 230 feet or more
Spells would fall into the special ability section also, which has also been mentioned, but not reading past the title you would not know that.
#readinghelps
If you answered the question in your previous post with regard as to what their answer might be I do apologize for overlooking it.I did. I made a long post, most of the body of the question was about the consequences of trying to use Hamatula Strike with a longbow. Have another look at it, tell me what you think, and I will accept your apology, whether you agree with me or not.
If an FAQ were made what do you think they would say.Again, I feel that this is a framed question. I feel that supposing the PDT were to intervene with an FAQ or any other kind of official answer presuposes that the PDT is grumpy about the idea. The only reason they would respond at all would be to make some kind of ruling against it. What I think is more constructive, however, is to suppose, hypotheically, that they are reading this now, contemplating it, and then we might predict whether they will make an official ruling or remain silent, which would imply assent. I treated this question thoroughly in my earlier post.
edit: I don't know what statement the PDT already made so I am asking will they say yes or no to ranged grappling, even if the character does not have a special weapon, special ability, or magic to help them do it.I was being saucy. There might be an FAQ or Official Rules Post I am unaware of, but meanwhile. I was saying that "no answer" is an answer.
They don't answer unless there is an FAQ. They have not answered questions while being fully aware the question was highly debated, at least not until an FAQ was made. Them not answering doesn't mean anything.
I asked you the question because I want to know if you are saying "I know ranged grapples are not allowed but the book doesn't make it clear", or if you are saying "I am highly confident that ranged grapples are the official intention".|
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Tackling this from a different angle :
CRB says : Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver.
CRB about AoOs says : Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
Also : Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
And : Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
For Grapple (a combat maneuver) to provoke AoOs (general rule), then it has to be performed within melee range (general rule about AoOs)
Raven, all that means is that if you do perform some sort of ranged/reach grapple then you wouldn't take any op attacks because you are out of the threatened area
Scott if you answer my last question and you say you believe that a character can offically(per intent) make ranged grapple attacks, even though your limbs nor any melee weapon in your possession* can reach them what is the limitation on distance when grappling? Can you grapple someone who is 1000 feet away as long as you can see them?
No matter your reply, even if you see 1 million miles I won't dispute it, assuming you answer the question. I am just curious about what you will say.
*The game references the number of hands free, and the grappling appendage in the grapple section.
PS: I don't know if this needs to be mentioned, but this question also assumes you don't have any spells or other special abilities that specifically allow ranged attacks such as the ability that the archer fighter archetype has. <----In before someone tries to reply with something such as telekinesis, while being fully aware.
PS2: I am not going to make anymore disclaimers like this. If someone tries to twist the words of the person they are replying to or pretend like they do not understand like Pendagast did earlier I think they should just be ignored. <----That resolves a lot of problems in advance, and it trains people that certain comments won't be entertained.
So you're perfectly okay with 1st level commoners from 4 miles away grappling your character?
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Intent is irrelevant.
You do a lot of writing for a simple question.
Are you defaulting to "the words in the book trumps intent"?
Please don't give me a 1000 word essay this time. It's a simple question.
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Okay, talk about talking past each other...
Wraithstrike (and myself, and I'm not touching the Hamatula Strike question) are saying the following: "while it is possible to have abilities (be they spells, feats, equipment, or magic items) which allow it, the general rule is that ranged grappling is not allowed".
This thread isn't about "find the combo that allows it" it's "can a 1st level human commoner with toughness and skill focus (Knowledge (local)) attempt a ranged grapple with her bare hands?". In other words, what is the general rule on ranged grappling?
Can you grapple someone who is 1000 feet away as long as you can see them?No, clearly, you need some means of reaching them, although reach is not necessarily "Reach."
There are a lot means that have been mentioned for Ranged Grapples. Harpoons, Grappling Arrows, nets, and spells such as Black Tentacles, Strangling Hair, and Web.
Those spells and class abilities would be special abilities, and I already stated that those were not to be included. We already know those work because they say they work that way.
What we thought you were saying was that even if your limbs could not reach someone, and you had no other way to do get to someone such as spells, grappling arrows, etc etc that you could grapple them anyway.
Nobody was ever saying that you can only use melee based attacks, even if you have something like a spell, weapon, etc etc that specifically says you can make ranged grapples.
Basically creature X with only his limbs, and nothing else can not grapple someone that is outside of his melee attack range<---That was the point being made.
And no they are not special limbs that stretch or count as ranged weapons. <---In before someone says well creature X can do ____.