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Eirian wrote:

The main reason for me seeming to jump around on what I want to do, is that I get told I can't do what i want to do.

I wanted to do a crafter... which i was told is not allowed.

I wanted to do a social char and buffer. Which I was told, will not get into groups nor survive.

I added fencing... and promptly was told that I wouldn't be able to buff...

I'm NOT interested in being a bowoman. I don't want to play a bard, nor a summoner... Neither do I want to be a fighter with some buffing only.

If it's impossible to play a dedicated social char, with buffing as her major contribution to the fight. And decent at the rapier to kill of the mooks once buffing is done... If that's impossible please just say so that I can delete my PFS account.

EDIT: Sorry if I sound angry and frustrated. Because at the moment I am... From all your suggestions I get the impression, that PF has NOTHING to do with roleplay, but is merely a cheap excuse of a tabletop combat simulation. And honestly: I can't and wont play a dumbed down Diablo 3 caricature of a RP character. I'm in it for the RP, not for some cheap computer action MMORPG rip off.

The bard IS your best choice for a social character plus buffer, the class has the social skills, and buffing options via class abilities and spells. Archetypes such as the Arcane Duellist even give you options to buff your melee contribution. What you might be hung up are the stereotypes on how people think you MUST play one.

On the other hand, I've even given a moderate amount of buffing as my Magus, and her traits gave her much of the social skills I could want.

Crafting IS pretty much a nogo in PFS, as it is in just about every network campaign I've ever participated in.

PFS has a lot to do with roleplay, while it may be dependent on the people you table with, it's full of scenarios that simply can't be hacked and slashed through.


I suck at the quotes and such but you said "If it's impossible to play a dedicated social char, with buffing as her major contribution to the fight. And decent at the rapier to kill of the mooks once buffing is done... If that's impossible please just say so that I can delete my PFS account." THAT is a bard.
Now my previous suggestions were mainly about where I was going by no means was it directing you to go in that direction (mainly it was "here is some cool things I found" take it or leave it) That said I agree with Drahliana...play a bard that is what you want...dont let the singing or playing get in your way go oratory and tell a tale or a chant. A "buffer" investigator is possible and they can give out some decent buffs...all like 2-3 of them and you really need to hope you gave the right potion to the right person at the right time. Like I mentioned previously some of the most powerful buffing spells effect the whole party...you are still just effecting one person. A bard starts off at level one giving the whole party +1 hit and damage, that is your bread and butter...it helps everyone and yourself. With a decent cha and the skill points a bard is a definite face in the party.

Online would be a good place to play, you can go to the store but you might run into people like me. Old farts with a wife and baby that is out just for the 4 hours set aside to get my fix in. Don't get me wrong I'm all for RP but I wont sit there for 30 mins to talk some goblins out of robbing us. (Not saying that is your style but I've seen it...and 5 mins later all the goblins are dead when I said fudge it) PFS is a mixed bag as was previously mentioned some lean towards combat/fluff and others are a nice mix. Sorry if this was rushed need to go back to work vaca is over

Grand Lodge

I can't pinpoint what it is, but whenever I read through the bard infos, and buffing bard guide ... it screams CHEESY to me ... that's exactly why I moved towards investigator.


Eirian wrote:
I can't pinpoint what it is, but whenever I read through the bard infos, and buffing bard guide ... it screams CHEESY to me ... that's exactly why I moved towards investigator.

Most guides you'll see here for any class tend to emphasize how to cheese the mechanics. So that may be distorting your perceptions.

Grand Lodge

That could be it. Though downside: I'd have to completely rewrite her background story ... or design a completely new char.

Honestly... the investigator might be much less efficient, but she FEELS better. And for me, in the end RP allways trumps efficiency.


I'm just going to point out that there are several 'detective' type archetypes for the bard. Yes, they predate the actual full Investigator class, but the point stands - you really shouldn't get stuck on a class name as if that defines every aspect of your character's life.

Grand Lodge

Please... the more you guys insist on "you have to take bard" the more you are basically saying: "this system is so f... broken, that if you take anything else than the Tier 1 or 2 classes, you will not have any fun".

If that's the case, please state it outright, instead of insisting for me to play a class of which I said several times that I do not feel comfortable with playing with THIS character. Which basically tells me that I shouldn't play PFS at ALL.

So is the system as broken, that you can't successfully play a char that is NOT a wiz or something like that, or overly pimped?


Eirian wrote:

Please... the more you guys insist on "you have to take bard" the more you are basically saying: "this system is so f... broken, that if you take anything else than the Tier 1 or 2 classes, you will not have any fun".

If that's the case, please state it outright, instead of insisting for me to play a class of which I said several times that I do not feel comfortable with playing with THIS character. Which basically tells me that I shouldn't play PFS at ALL.

So is the system as broken, that you can't successfully play a char that is NOT a wiz or something like that, or overly pimped?

We were trying to point out that the reasons you were avoiding a bard may not be justified. You said that you wanted a character that could buff, that had mad social skills, and could perform in in combat. THAT is the definition of the jack of all trades character... the Bard.

Other classes can do some of what you want, just not all of it. like I've said before, I did minor buffing and minor social with my magus, lots of classes can give you SOME of what you want, none of them give you the complete package you're asking for as much as the Bard does. So you either play a Bard or pull back on some of your expectations.


I know there are tiers, never bothered to learn them. Your preference towards buffing above all else is where the bard comes from. Heck they even get a rapier to boot. Spells like haste and good hope..added to inspire makes you a really good buffer. Everyone benefits.. the investigator can do that but only one person will get the benefit per spell..so it is 1 vs your level in targets. We realize you don't want to play a bard but we are just saying "you want a apple This is a apple" classes are like people what defines it is the character. You can play a bard with no skill in instrument nor a singing voice and still be effective. Heck some archetypes don't even need that

Grand Lodge

One thing thats bothering me about bard, is that I'd have to take Cha.

I don't want Charisma. First, it's difficult enough to get by with the points already. Also... my char is not intended to be Charisma based. Yes, she is attractive in a cute way. Yes she is well enough mannered. But she also got a brain that is so powerfull, that her thoughts are very different from most people. She can get by with people that hardly understand her... but she does so with her mind, not her charms.

Music, acting, dancing... all those are a mere hobby to her, not her way to influence the world. Her mind, her arguments is her tool. And even an orator bard is using her charisma to make people do what she wants... not logic.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you are focused on buffing, you could get away with a 13-14 Charisma on a bard and put the points you save into Intelligence.

If you still don't like the bard's know-it-all flavor, either an Empiricist Investigator or an Occultist would be workable.

What are the three things you imagine Eirian being able to do?

Grand Lodge

Know it all
Face with brains
Supportive in Combat

kicking some booty while being adorable is a bonus.


The thing you need to keep in mind is you are planning a jack of all trade..or a hybrid. As such you should look at most hybrids there is a reason most do not have spells past level 6... you need to have the ability to cast the spells but also keep up your fighting ability. That said a 20 int is very contrary and ineffective to the build...most points have gone into int and you really are getting nothing from it. You should really spread the stats out. Although really you could play a wizard with that...you would have all your points.

As mentioned the bard is the same idea...being a buffer you dont have to worry about the opponents making a save...a 13/14 is very plausible by 10th level the bard would get +5 to knowledge and you could take 10... you would be a decent face and nobody beats the bard for buffing. Granted you need to perform.

Don't get me wrong, I love the investigator, spent probably too much time thinking about it. But really I wouldn't try to buff everyone you just dont have enough resources (maybe at later levels) Covers all your bases but your support would be in killing things quick(-ish)

Grand Lodge

What about multiclassing? Is it so bad as to be not worth it?

Would the following combination make sense:

inspired blade swashbuckler 1
empiricist investigator x
wizard or arcanist or such y

With investigator and the mage class being favored class (dropping the skill focus perception for it).


Eirian wrote:

What about multiclassing? Is it so bad as to be not worth it?

Would the following combination make sense:

inspired blade swashbuckler 1
empiricist investigator x
wizard or arcanist or such y

With investigator and the mage class being favored class (dropping the skill focus perception for it).

Multiclassing is very powerful if you do it right. In PFS you play up to level 12 generally. So keep that in mind. You do not enjoy a lot of high end powers.

I would avoid mage. Generally dips in mage offer little. The investigator has extracts. Honestly look at abilities you want your toon to have and level towards getting those abilities. What does a wizard offer that you want?

You will not need to drop skill focus as multi-talented and that are inclusive of each other.


I would stick with a basic concept. Dipping into spellcasters seldom works.

Just a note, I understand the INT need. I despise charisma myself, but I would recommend a 17. That's oddly more efficient than an 18, so I spread the gain into CON and DEX.

There are a lot of ways to do what you want. Swashvestigator is one good way, but any INT based caster with medium BAB seems to be what you want. Occultist and Magus can also work.

Lore warden fighter has the feats to pull of whatever you want (like DEX-based rapier specialization), the skill ranks to be a know-it-all, the bonuses that make it the best combat maneuver specialist (with which your combat expertise bonus feat will open up a lot of possibilities), and can be adorable. Lore Warden plus Swift Aid can make you a great pal to have around.

You seem more fluff oriented so you could probably make anything work.

Orator is amazing. I know for sure it's been mentioned, but it is great for INT faces.


Honestly, for multiclassing it can either be a wonderful wonderful thing that adds flavor and versatility, it can be a cheese fest of OP mixtures of abilities (up to a certain level), or it can be the thing that gets your character left behind.

That being said, pfft, almost every character I've played, except for a bard that never even got to level 3, has been a multiclass in some way, usually to fit the story.

Personally I never liked to plan builds out at all unless I'm going for a prestige class, and many posters here would like to tell me that aside from a select few, they are all sub-par. Never stops me though.

From what I've seen of your build you're doing fine. But I think what is more important, is finding the right group to play this character with. Even in PFS there is a vast difference between playstyles and groups.

Grand Lodge

Thanks for the feedback. Looking a bit more into the wizard, I think I'll pass on that (for this char).

I have an idea now for another char, which might be a gnomish buffer bard, as well as a third one, which probably will be a wizard.

But this first char stands as empiricist investigator with one lvl of spirited blade swashbuckler at the side.

Thank you all for your patience.


If you are dead set on the 20 int I would skip out on the level of swashbuckler...just pick up finesse at level 1 and worry about leveling the investigator up. The swashbuckler adds more combat to you, if it isnt a priority there is no reason to go there. Stats I would prioritize dex and then int...str I would keep at 10 and wis/con at least 12 in the front line a d8 isnt gonna cut it...I have a archer with a 10 con and I get all runny when someone gets close to me. Basic feats for swordplay(if you are going swashbuckler dip) I would take fencing grace (so now dex is to hit and damage) and then combat reflexes (so you can do multiple riposte in a round) Mutagen (at 3)would be a very solid talent to pick up along with quick study (at 5) after that you could move towards rounding out the character..like at 5 take the extra talent feat for infusion. The investigator has a long start up but what is nice is you can see them progress each level


Last add on before work so you don't think it would be just a combat character..I wouldn't worry about buffing you would be bringing a lot more to the table.. I would put skill focus in umd,the ability to use any magic item is impressive on top of that I've seen parties with no healer or ability to use a wand of cure. Disable device is very uncommon,last game I was in the gm was about to skip that roll until I let him know I could disable said trap. Being the face and all the knowledge of things you know. That is where the investigator excells

Grand Lodge

Already registered the char. But thanks anyway. :D

The UMD will be a major part of my artificer though, which of course is not PFS, but for other games.


Character is not solid until level 2. They give you a chance to make changes if you see it isn't working

Grand Lodge

OK, out of curiosity, because I was told SO often that I should reduce Int:

What would I sacrifice, and what do I gain by dropping Int by 1 or 2 points?

Sacrifices:

permanent 4/8 skill ranks (1 each lvl without Int 20)
permanent 1 language worth another skill rank of linguistics
temporary -1 to almost all important skills
temporary -1 to panache

Gains:

permanent up to 5 additional attribute points (lost 2, gained up to 7) ... in attributes I consider less important
permanent up to 2 attribute modifiers ... in attributes I consider less important
permanent up to 2 saving throws (due to lower attributes)
permanent ability to wear medium armor by getting Str to 8
permanent ability to get an eldritch familiar (needing Cha 13)
temporary lower attack and AC (due to lower Dex)

What else? What other sacrifices or gains do I not take into account, and why are they so important that everyone keeps telling me: lower Int. ^^


Wow you would actually gain a lot...seriously you tanked str!? First and foremost you are NOT a wizard. You need the armor and gear... at 7 str using just a chain shirt and a rapier you are at a med load giving you a max dex of 3 and another 3 armor check penalty...you will hit heavy as soon as you add gear meaning a max dex of 1 and -6 acp you cannot afford to tank str.

Sorry that shocked me. As mentioned previously a 20 int suffers diminished returns and my whole speech on hybrid classes goes into it. So here is a shocker: Bring int down to 15 (no bonus to it) yeah yeah shock and awe...you need a 16 to get all the major benefits from it (aka extracts) now we have 10 points which is first bringing str to 11..yeah it costs 5 points but you need to be able to hold your things...next we bring your wis to 12 (ill explain in a min) get con to 13 and add your bonus +1 to dex bringing it up to 17 Honestly if i could bring cha down to a 9 I would make str 10 and con 12 and bring dex to 18.

Now to add reasoning to this: Dex is actually your main att...what do you gain from it? Initiative, armor, bonus to hit, damage, attacks of opp from combat reflexes and a ref bonus. You need to carry gear and it adds up way too quick to ignore it. Con for hp fort and when you get to -hp it keeps you alive. Wis 12 will is really important but lets face it what is more important is having it up to 12 so when you lose two from the dex mutagen (gaining another 2 to hit/damage and +4 ac)

You are gaining way more than losing dropping int that is why everyone is saying you should move it down


Ekibus has the right of it. Just to illustrate the point, I've plugged the numbers for his not-ideal build vs. yours into the DPR calculator (I know, I know, 'you don't care about numbers' but this is really going to be huge, so bear with me.)

Your build comes up with an average DPR of 1.23 per round at first level.

Ekibus' comes out to 5.43 DPR. That's literally an extra kobold dropped every single round. Plus, as he pointed out, your AC is effectively only going to be 11-14, compared to his at 15-16. You are literally helpless in melee, where you are expecting to function.

Believe me, the 7-strength Melee build has been something of a passion of mine. It's possible, marginally, but this combination of classes isn't going to do it. You're pretty much stuck with some variant of Dervish (Bard's got the strongest variants here, again), maybe a kineticist of some description, or very maybe a kensai magus, but none of those are exactly easy to build and may not function the way you'd like for a few levels, or about 24-36 hours of your life invested at a real-time table, or several months on the messageboards.

Grand Lodge

Wait guys... remember I'm NOT playing a swashbuckler. I DIP into swashbuckling. I do NOT play a true fighter, EVER. Skirmisher is the max I'm into. What you suggest Ekibus is a WHOLE different character.

All swashbuckling is intended to do, is buff the investigator a bit. If that can't be done... then forget about it.

Also Dex isn't my main attribute, Int is, with Dex the secondary attribute... honestly I'd rather drop the whole swashbuckler thing than crippling my char that much.

An answer like "you gain a lot" isn't helping either. I don't care if I'm not a wizard, my char is a merchant, a scholar, not a fighter.

Thus I need facts that I'm not looking at, not some vague assumptions. Facts that I can base a decision on. Facts that would truly benefit my character, not twist it into some munchkiny caricature of itself.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Eirian wrote:


Sacrifices:

permanent 4/8 skill ranks (1 each lvl without Int 20)
permanent 1 language worth another skill rank of linguistics
temporary -1 to almost all important skills
temporary -1 to panache

What do you mean permanent? You gain skill ranks and languages when you get your attribute gain at 4th or 8th level...

Quote:

Gains:

permanent up to 5 additional attribute points (lost 2, gained up to 7) ... in attributes I consider less important
permanent up to 2 attribute modifiers ... in attributes I consider less important
permanent up to 2 saving throws (due to lower attributes)
permanent ability to wear medium armor by getting Str to 8
permanent ability to get an eldritch familiar (needing Cha 13)
temporary lower attack and AC (due to lower Dex)

What else? What other sacrifices or gains do I not take into account, and why are they so important that everyone keeps telling me: lower Int. ^^

An investigator still needs to defend themselves. You don't need to beast combat, but I thought that being competent with a rapier was part of your concept.

Why does Eirian go adventuring? What is her role in the society?

Grand Lodge

Thank you, that info about retroactive skill gain helps. :D

Being competent with a rapier is an optional part of the concept... given the suggestions by Ekibus it would become the central part of the concept.

Eirian goes adventuring as she is expected to take over the aquisition part of her mothers business. Which is a "all things magical" shop. So Eirian needs to get out, make contacts all over the world, dealing for the wares sold in said shop. Fencing was part of her education to allow her to stand her ground in case the bodyguards got swarmed.

She starts out in the society to learn her ropes on that part, and to gain contacts within the society. Of course, this might/will probably change over time, but at the start she is in it for opportunistic reasons. If changing faction wouldn't cost something, I'd even have her start in the exchange, and switch allegiance to grand lodge later on, as that is exactly the path I see her going.


Sigh ok I'm done with the thread. As mentioned previously IF the swashbuckler wasn't a priority then I would skip it. (Go back up and look) actually look at the facts of my post they are not assumptions. It is advice I've learned while playing (hence advice forum) so last bit of advice is go out and play,you can change everything until 2,then come back and reread this thread.


I will tell you one reason why maxed out int on a non wizard/alchemist with a huge maybe is not good!
You put all your tricks on that ONE PONY! If that pony is not good, you sit around for 5 hours and feel stupid.
You need a least a decent strength for most classes to just carry the gear you need. That gear CAN be armor or weapons, but can also be books, flasks, potions, extracts, tools, etc. If you get hit by strength drain or anything like that your pony won´t ride even if it should be great!
Second stats are your first line of defense. There are some other options, but dex is initiative, ac and reflex, Con Fortitude and Wisdom will. If you dump strength and you have to run away, or climb, or swim, you either have to drop all or.... don´t. And the I have the extract,spell, ability to circumstand it, no you don´t. Usually you just don´t. Because you prepared other things!
If you have a team it is better to specialise, but in pfs... this can bite you in the back!

Grand Lodge

Sorry Ekibus if you consider my answer impolite. I'm just getting a tad tired of being thrown off course by suggestions leading to a completely different concept.

My char IS done, and will not change... I'm only trying to work out the mechanics.

I'm open to suggestions that help get the mechanics done. But posts telling me that I MUST play a completely different concept... do not help.


Well in that case remember. Mithral is your friend. Run from shadows! FAST!

Grand Lodge

I was thinking about improving on Dex with the stat increase, and yes, Mithril based light armor.

I'm not totally averse to lowering Int... but I'm not gonna go into a completely different char concept as suggested by basically becoming a Dex build (with a bit of Int).

Maybe I should try asking those two questions:

Q: can attributes be raised past 20 with stat increases? if yes... then I'd use my stat increases on Int. If no, then I'd probably lower her Int at start, and raise it with the 4th and maybe even 8th level stat increase back to 20.

Q2: how expensive is changing faction and/or alignment?

Some background for that q: Eirian goes adventuring as she is expected to take over the aquisition part of her mothers business. Which is a "all things magical" shop. So she needs to get out, make contacts all over the world, dealing for the wares sold in said shop. Fencing was part of her education to allow her to stand her ground in case the bodyguards got swarmed.

She starts out in the society to learn her ropes on aquisition of magical items, and to gain contacts within the society. Of course, this might/will probably change over time, but at the start she is in it for opportunistic reasons.

That's also the reason why I had her as CG to TN... actually it would be more precise to consider her TN to CG as that's exactly the alignment switch I assume her to take. From a teenager doing what's opportune and expected from her by her family, towards a strong willed personality following her own path.

Same about faction, if changing faction wouldn't cost something, I'd have her start in the exchange, and switch allegiance to grand lodge later on.


All right, look. I looked through the thread and saw someone tried to convince you you can get by without a fair amount of combat competence.

In theory, it's possible, but would require in many cases picking up the adventures you play ahead of time and cherry-picking ones that have a full non-combat path. In practice, it will not happen, and if you insist on it you are going to ruin the game for everyone at the table some day.

No scenarios in PFS are written with outs for all of the combats. There are two reasons. First, because of the nature of sitting down with a bunch of strangers when you sit down someone's going to want to do some fighting, and almost every player doesn't mind that. Second, because D&D derivatives, including Pathfinder, really do function on the assumption that combat is where most of the XP comes from, and it's actually really difficult to write a scenario of only skill challenges and puzzles that will give exactly enough XP to advance one third of a level in only four hours of playtime , which is what the PFS system is based on.

Most of the time, you'll be spending at least half of each four hour session in a fight, probably more. You need a plan for what you're going to be doing when, not if, that happens or your character is going to end up a stain on the floor sooner or later.

If I may be so bold, I think you're looking at this backwards. You've chosen a concept, picked stats, and are now trying to make classes fit your conceptions. This is the opposite of how roleplaying in a class-based system works. You start with a concept, true, but then you need to decide what that concept does in the situations you expect to face, and pick classes to match, which guide your stats.

As to your assertion that, as an Investigator, you're purely int based, that's just objectively wrong. Look at the class. I mean, really look at it, don't just cherry pick stuff you think is cool and ignore the rest. What do you see? There's alchemy, some of which you've traded out and so far you haven't seemed to approach things with an understanding of how you will be using the major chunk that's left. There's Inspiration and some related skill-based talents.

Those represent the things you've addressed. But there's plenty more here. There's 3/4 Base Attack, which, contrary to what you seem to believe, means that when you sit down at the table you're gonna be expected to attack stuff. 3/4 BAB is also home to the Bard, Magus, Inquisitor, the Alchemist (one of your derived classes), the Rogue (also one of your derived classes), the Warpriest, Slayers, Vigilantes, and Monks. What all these classes have in common is that they're all at least theoretically good at smacking things around, including both of the classes you're hybriding off from.

There's Alchemy, which comes with extracts. Again, look at the whole list and tell me what you see there. Restricting it to the first level extracts to keep this manageable, well, there's some utility, yes, almost all of it situational. But about half the list is combat buffs that, in some way, improve your ability to hit things. Given you won't be seeing Infusion until second level, delaying access to all the Investigator talents I'm sure you want, those will be cast on yourself only for awhile.

Then there's studied combat/strike. Now, there's long discussions about the math out there, but the long and short of it is that Studied Combat, unless you build for Strike, will be your bread and butter combat ability when you get it. But a bonus equal to half your level will do you no good at 3/4 BAB unless you manage to get there, and right now that's kind of iffy. Even so, you will be /much/ better off with more ability to hit things.

And that's it. Investigators get no direct damage outside of weapons, no combat tricks, nothing. Your goal when combat starts as an investigator is to maybe drop a buff or two on yourself, then wade in and hit things hard to try to bring them down. They really don't have any other options available to them.

That means Strength. At least enough of it to wear light armor effectively (right now you're not even close). That means Dexterity, at least enough to supplement your AC to survivable levels in that light armor (You're actually sorta there, but only if you can manage light armor which I just pointed out you can't.)

You can't go just ignoring 3/4ths of your class abilities and expect to manage to accomplish anything. That's just as true in PFS of musclehead fighters who dump intelligence and have no skill points - I have a fighter, not even a Lore Warden, who managed to save the day with Aid Another on many occasions simply by spreading skill points around to "Trained Only" skills to give an assist when needed. Heck, I even tried to take a sorcerer into a melee without being a Dragon Disciple. Didn't work out so well, but it was a neat experiment.

Lastly, you assert your character is 'done.' By the rules, that's not true. PFS has a special house rule that you can freely change anything you want between sessions until you make second level. It's specifically for cases like this one, so you really don't have to take our word for it that this isn't viable. Go ahead, play a session, and see what happens.

Grand Lodge

Thank you for explaining RP to me... somehow I seem to have done it wrong for 25+ years... And most of my playpartners seem to have done it ALL wrong as well.

Or maybe you just explained roll-playing to me? Or tried to "win an argument"?

Whatever it is... it seems we have incompatible ideas of what my hobby entails. So apparently the advice you can give me ... will lead towards your hobby, a hobby I do not share. Playing a round of Steve Jacksons Munchkin is fine and well ... but not while roleplaying.

I wish you well, have fun with your hobby, while I have with mine.

PS: KingOfAnything, Helikon and several others, thx for your advice. I'll heed it, and adapted my char with the advice of some other people as well. Mithril is on my list, running fast is there as well.

Telling me how to make my char playable instead of telling me what char I should play is really what I was looking for, and you as well as several others did so.


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Didn't consider your response to be that impolite..I've known similar people like you and as your previous response shows I was dead on. Sadly you want advice but really only want it to a certain point and when the vast majority point out that your logic is flawed you will use the sacred roll-player vs role-player argument or just say "maybe this isnt the game for me." As a courtesy realize how much time and thought others have put into the responses to explain their logic. Your opening post specifically states you are new to pathfinder...hence everyone is explaining their experience in pathfinder and the very mechanics of the class. (since you are newer to rules) I think all the responses have been spent explaining it to you, at this point you are in a lock-down mode and there is no point to argue. I'm amazed that as a "role-player" you are locking your character down so much. Personally I have a concept pick the class to match and then play...after a session or two I realize the concept isnt matching the mechanics..luckily the developers realized the same thing. Keep your mind open is the big thing, otherwise you will be trying to force your concept to mechanics and wont be happy.

Now I've read your background multiple times mechanically that isnt your character. First and foremost you grew up in "Akorians Emporium of All Things Magical." you were surrounded by magical things at all times..it was your parent's lively hood...and you took skill focus: perception!? Seriously I understand from a power gaming perspective perception is king.. but that should be use magic devices hand down. With no interest in boys/girls or just flat out not realizing...that places cha down below average so 7-9. To note also for the fencing lessons..the core class includes the proficiency...taking finesse will seal the deal... no reason to take swashbuckler based on the story..unless you actually are putting a focus on the fencing in which case a master would just barely notice you at a 14 dex.

Now all these numbers really do mean something besides mechanics. Remember that 99.9% of people will have stats ranging from 10-11..that is the normal. Einstein would have had maybe a 18 int and he is considered to be by most one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...your character may be smart but is she of Einstein's level... A 14-15 would put you as very bright..not the wizard's int able to manipulate reality or physics-type smart.

Grand Lodge

Concerning CHA: thank you, THAT is an argument that is indeed helpfull. I was having quite some trouble justifying to myself having Cha 10... but given your argument the equation is simple: her looks and charms would put her at significantly above 10, with her lack of insight into the basic drives (like sex, booze or football) bring her back down to 10.

Concerning your statement about 99.9% being between 10 and 11... FLATLY wrong. Take a look at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores, Pathfinder obviously uses only as VERY narrow part f the gaussian normal distribution.

Genius level for example has a minimum IQ of 125 (Feynmann) with more usual examples being IQ 145 to 160.

<IQ 125 is roughly 95%, <IQ 145 is roughly 99.9% and <IQ 160 is roughly 1 out of 30,000 people.

Going by Pathfinder "genius level" being 18-19... then your 99.9% are better placed as 17 or lower...

Also: 99.9% is a rather common occurence. That's 300,000 people in the USA alone. Genius level using IQ 160? The 10,000 smartest people of the USA.

So please, before you start throwing around with "normality" ... get a bit info on median, standard distribution and the like. It's easy to understand, if you didn't waste all your points on useless stats.


Chris Kenney wrote:
No scenarios in PFS are written with outs for all of the combats.

You are categorically, factually wrong.

I have personally completed Library of the Lion and The Bronze House Reprisal without once rolling initiative. In both instances it was fully intended that this be possible. There are other scenarios where this is also possible. With a good GM, there are several other scenarios beyond those.

There's more than one way to play Pathfinder. Stop insisting people play your way.

Grand Lodge

Thx Ryzoken. My character as will be used for Bid for Alabastrine (7-22) looks like this:

Eirian Avenstar
Female CG Half-Elf Inspired Blade Swashbuckler,
Level 1, Init 5, HP 11/11, Speed
AC 16, Touch 13, Flat-footed 13, CMD 13, Fort 1, Ref 5, Will 0, CMB 0, Base Attack Bonus 1
Rapier 5 (1d6+3, 18–20/×2)
Lamellar Cuirass, Buckler (+2 Armor, +1 Shield, +3 Dex)
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills Acrobatics +7, Appraise +4, Bluff +0/+4, Craft (Alchemy) +8, Diplomacy +1/+5, Disable Device +4, Linguistics +5, Perception +7, Profession (Merchant) +1, Sense Motive +4
Condition None

Does that look like it could work as base for the investigator? I'm not completely done with the equipment though... Haven't found a list with separate clothing prices and weight. Any ideas?


Looks good! You can skewer a goblin if it rolls up, you've got a good stack of skills, your AC is a touch low, but you've got Opportune Parry and Riposte to cancel one swing each round. As long as you work the edges of a fight, you shouldn't be at risk of death.

Make sure you have a pack of good supplies. Rope, torches, a dagger, food and drink, just the basics until you can get a handy haversack to carry stuff in. Make double sure you have a handful of flasks of acid, if you can afford it. Occasionally you run into swarms and your sword won't work. You'd be surprised how often a party rolls up to a scenario only to discover no one thought to bring rope. I've actually been in parties that had to backtrack to town to stock up on basic supplies!

I can't say that any of this advice will be of use for that scenario in particular; I haven't played it, and I'm obligated to not reveal information if I had. But that's just generic good advice.

Most important: have fun!


Looks pretty good I like to check here for what monsters may have to compare to my own stats.

Sorry if I missed a post but your total carried weigh is 51 lb., which makes you encumbered. That means 20 ft. Movement speed, max DEX bonus of 3, and a check penalty equal to -3.

I think you forgot some class skill bonuses, unless I'm reading it wrong.


MageHunter wrote:
Sorry if I missed a post but your total carried weigh is 51 lb., which makes you encumbered. That means 20 ft. Movement speed, max DEX bonus of 3, and a check penalty equal to -3.

Ooh. Yeah, how heavy is that armor? Basic gear you can carry in a sack and drop at start of combat. As long as your armor and sword are under light load, you'll be in good shape.


Ryzoken wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
Sorry if I missed a post but your total carried weigh is 51 lb., which makes you encumbered. That means 20 ft. Movement speed, max DEX bonus of 3, and a check penalty equal to -3.
Ooh. Yeah, how heavy is that armor? Basic gear you can carry in a sack and drop at start of combat. As long as your armor and sword are under light load, you'll be in good shape.

I checked and her rapier and armor is 10 lb. And light load 26

Double checking carrying capacity is one of the scariest moments for a build...

You could also make it a bit easier by switching the STR and CHA score. You're planning Empiricist so that'll get boosted and replaced quick.

Grand Lodge

20 gp

Chargen shopping list:
-20 gp rapier 2lbs
-15 gp lamellar cuirass 8 lbs
- 5 gp buckler 5 lbs
-50 gp potion of cure light wounds

-8 gp mule
-12 gp pathfinders kit 22 lbs
-10 gp rope, silk (50ft) 5 lbs
-10 gp case, (ink, inkpen, parchement (2 sheets) , piece of charcoal) 0.5 lbs

Yes, I'm at 51 lbs so 2 lbs below max if I carry everything myself. Once I drop the stuff (which is usually carried by the mule), I'm below 26 lbs, so fine. Don't need a sack, a backpack is part of the pathfinders kit.

Main problem for now is the explorers outfit. I'd like to be a bit more specific on that, so that I have some leeway to frex carry the silk rope aside the clothes, armor , weapons and buckler.

I'll probably also gonna go through the pathfinders kit to integrate the dagger and stuff.

MageHunter, where do you think I forgot the class skill bonuses? For now it's only swashbuckler, I'll get the investigator class skills at lvl 2.


Diplomacy and bluff are swashbuckler class skills, but still says +0, unless I missed something.

Grand Lodge

Thank you, seems I missed some class skills. If it wasn't this specific char I could switch Cha and Str. But she is cute/beautyful and her "nerdyness" doesn't explain THAT much loss of charisma. :D

Eirian Avenstar
Female CG Half-Elf Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, Level 1, Init 5, HP 11/11, Speed
AC 16, Touch 13, Flat-footed 13, CMD 13, Fort 1, Ref 5, Will 0, CMB 0, Base Attack Bonus 1
Rapier 5 (1d6+3, 18–20/×2)
Lamellar Cuirass, Buckler (+2 Armor, +1 Shield, +3 Dex)
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills Acrobatics +6/+7, Appraise +4, Bluff +0/+4, Craft (Alchemy) +8, Diplomacy +4/+8, Disable Device +3/+4, Linguistics +5, Perception +9, Profession (Merchant) +4, Sense Motive +4
Condition None

Changes: added the class skills, made the distinction between skills with or without buckler, and added the keen senses perception bonus

What I need now is a nice fitting fencing merchant outfit costing less than 10 gp and weighing less than 5.5 lbs.

Also I need to redo the pathfinders kit into something more appropriate ideally weighing not more than 25 lbs.

Thus I'd have 5 lbs allowance to move from the mule to my inventory, and could still carry everything I own while staying below 53 lbs.

PS: Is there a list with separate entries for single pieces of clothing?


Ryzoken wrote:

You are categorically, factually wrong.

I have personally completed Library of the Lion and The Bronze House Reprisal without once rolling initiative. In both instances it was fully intended that this be possible. There are other scenarios where this is also possible. With a good GM, there are several other scenarios beyond those.

There's more than one way to play Pathfinder. Stop insisting people play your way.

I downloaded and read through both scenarios...and concede the literal point only. Now show me how to play an entire career where you, even in theory only, never get into a serious scrape and I'll concede a character doesn't need a solid plan for surviving and contributing to combat in some fashion.

I'll do you a favor and exclude Seeker play, so that just means you need to find 31 more scenarios where there isn't an instance where it is not stated as inevitable the PCs run into a force that will automatically attack them regardless of any skill check or decision on their part. Heck, I'll go ahead and make it even easier - if the CR is below the level of the tier, it doesn't count as a "real" combat for this purpose.

By the way, I'm not calling you out here. I'm genuinely curious - I haven't played very much past season 4, and only dropped in because I started running an AP. If I'm wrong, go ahead and prove me wrong.

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